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RE: Yahwah - 9/3/2008 7:15:47 PM
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DaveW
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MTAA I think you got a hold of some really bad teaching somewhere. You need to ditch that book you keep quoting.
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RE: Yahwah - 9/3/2008 10:24:17 PM
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MichaelTheeArchAngel
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It would really be helpful if you quote a source or state some facts. For example, if Jesus name is a translation, then why does it end with an s? Are people who speak Spanish unable to say Yahshua in there native language?
quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
MTAA I think you got a hold of some really bad teaching somewhere. You need to ditch that book you keep quoting.
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RE: Yahwah - 9/4/2008 7:24:44 AM
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DaveW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MichaelTheeArchAngel
if Jesus name is a translation, then why does it end with an s? I explained that. In Latin, 2nd declension nouns (masculine) end in --us. (or rarely --er) Most words and male names that came into english with --us ending came from Latin.
circus
Augustus
Julius
Since Latin (via the catholic church) had a great influence on early english, we have that ending on the Lord's name.
quote:
Are people who speak Spanish unable to say Yahshua in their native language? They can say the word, but since it is not Spanish, why would they? You have a (imo unfounded) concern that it sounds too much like zeus that they do not share.
My name is David, pronounced DAY-vid. In Hebrew (the original) it is pronounced dah-VEED and I answer to that as I know many Israelis. In Scottish gaelic, it is "Taffy," a name I do not answer to but would in Scotland. In Latin, the name was spelled Davus and was pronounced DAH-woos. Names have to change to fit the local dialect. How would you pronounce "Yeshua" in the African bush language that uses only clicks and pops?
You are straining at gnats here. There are much more important things to concern yourself with.
_____________________________
Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
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RE: Yahwah - 9/4/2008 11:11:04 AM
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Haran
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MichaelTheeArchAngel
It would really be helpful if you quote a source or state some facts. For example, if Jesus name is a translation, then why does it end with an s? Are people who speak Spanish unable to say Yahshua in there native language?
Facts:
1) We first learn of the name Jesus from the New Testament.
2) The New Testament was written in Greek.
3) Jesus' name in the Greek New Testament was given to us as IESOUS.
4) IESOUS is in the nominative case and ends with an 's' for that reason
5) IESOUS has different case endings in the Greek and does not always end in 's'. In the genitive case it is written IESOU and in the accusative case it is written IESOUN.
6) IESOUS is not a translation, it is a transliteration (i.e. a substitution of Hebrew/Aramaic letters with approximate equivalents found in Greek - there is no 'sh' in Greek as there is in Hebrew, so 's' was rendered instead)
7) The connection between IESOUS and the Hebrew Joshua or Yehoshua is made for two reasons...(1) Joshua was transliterated in Greek as IESOUS in the Septuagint (Greek version of the Old Testament written before Jesus time), and (2) the transliteration makes sense... iota for yod, eta for short vowel, sigma for the shin (since Greek does not have an equivalent), dipthong omega upsilon to represent the vav (and again, the 's' on the end, as well as the alternate 'n' and simply 'ou' are the case endings necessary in Greek grammar).
Without the Greek New Testament, you would have no idea what Jesus Hebrew/Aramaic name might have been. If you don't believe IESOUS was a transliteration of the Hebrew/Aramaic Yeshua, then what leads to you believe that Yeshua or 'Yahshua' was the name of Jesus?
< Message edited by Haran -- 9/4/2008 12:55:01 PM >
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RE: Yahwah - 9/4/2008 11:53:25 AM
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Haran
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MichaelTheeArchAngel
"It is known that the Greek name endings with sus, seus, and sous [which are phonetic pronunciations for the chief Greek god of Olympus] were attached by the Greeks to names and geographical areas as means to give honour to their supreme deity, Zeus." (Dictionary of Christian Lore and Legend, Professor J. C. J. Metford).
I am unfamiliar with this author and with this work. I suspect one of two things, either this is a quote that has been taken out of context or Metford is not a reliable source of information.
Do you own this book or are you just lifting the quote from websites? If you own the book, would you mind giving more context? For instance, is this statement under the entry 'Jesus' or something else? Does Metford provide any linguistic resources for this doubtful claim that could be checked?
If you want resources, look up IESOUS in any reputable Greek lexicion (i.e. 'dictionary'). I have the BDAG 3rd edition Greek lexicon (one of the more respected Greek lexicons) sitting in front of me and it says IHSOUS is a transliteration from the Hebrew and gives further resources to back this up). However, it is certainly not the only one to mention such a thing...look at Lidell-Scott, Thayer, Louw-Nida, or any other respected Greek lexicon.
The sus, seus, sous being theophoric is an unsubstantiated claim at best. I have seen the claim used of the Greek god of wine, Dionysus, which is completely absurd as anyone who knows a little Greek could see. This would mean that Dionysus was ZeusZeus. 'Dio' was often used in Greek theophoric names to represent Zeus, as in Diodotos, Dionikos, and others.
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RE: Yahwah - 9/4/2008 11:52:22 PM
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MichaelTheeArchAngel
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Thanks DaveW and Haran, but I need to study this more because I found more info to the contrary. If it is a vain thought, I would like to know as a matter of fact. The subject is to important to ignore.
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RE: Yahwah - 9/4/2008 11:56:33 PM
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MichaelTheeArchAngel
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Dionysus means "son of Zeus" I think.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Haran
quote:
ORIGINAL: MichaelTheeArchAngel
"It is known that the Greek name endings with sus, seus, and sous [which are phonetic pronunciations for the chief Greek god of Olympus] were attached by the Greeks to names and geographical areas as means to give honour to their supreme deity, Zeus." (Dictionary of Christian Lore and Legend, Professor J. C. J. Metford).
I am unfamiliar with this author and with this work. I suspect one of two things, either this is a quote that has been taken out of context or Metford is not a reliable source of information.
Do you own this book or are you just lifting the quote from websites? If you own the book, would you mind giving more context? For instance, is this statement under the entry 'Jesus' or something else? Does Metford provide any linguistic resources for this doubtful claim that could be checked?
If you want resources, look up IESOUS in any reputable Greek lexicion (i.e. 'dictionary'). I have the BDAG 3rd edition Greek lexicon (one of the more respected Greek lexicons) sitting in front of me and it says IHSOUS is a transliteration from the Hebrew and gives further resources to back this up). However, it is certainly not the only one to mention such a thing...look at Lidell-Scott, Thayer, Louw-Nida, or any other respected Greek lexicon.
The sus, seus, sous being theophoric is an unsubstantiated claim at best. I have seen the claim used of the Greek god of wine, Dionysus, which is completely absurd as anyone who knows a little Greek could see. This would mean that Dionysus was ZeusZeus. 'Dio' was often used in Greek theophoric names to represent Zeus, as in Diodotos, Dionikos, and others.
quote:
Dionysus
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RE: Yahwah - 9/5/2008 12:05:17 AM
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MichaelTheeArchAngel
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In the 1611 King James New Testatment the name Yahshua appeared originally wherever the Messiah was spoken of. But shortly afterward it was changed.
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RE: Yahwah - 9/5/2008 7:48:14 AM
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Haran
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MichaelTheeArchAngel
Thanks DaveW and Haran, but I need to study this more because I found more info to the contrary. If it is a vain thought, I would like to know as a matter of fact. The subject is to important to ignore.
You can find all kinds of bad/mis-information on the web, so I don't doubt that you will find 'more info to the contrary'.
However, 'to the contrary' of what? You need to be more specific so the info you found can be addressed.
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RE: Yahwah - 9/5/2008 7:56:55 AM
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Haran
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MichaelTheeArchAngel
Dionysus means "son of Zeus" I think.
No one knows the true etymology of 'nysus', but yes, 'son' is one hypothesis. Another is that it represents a geographical location, as in Zeus' Nysus.
The reasons I brought the name up are because it gives an example of a theophoric name with Zeus/Dios, and to address an example given by some Yahwists (or whatever you call your current beliefs) of the unsubstantiated sus, seus, etc. ending supposedly meaning Zeus (obviously in this example that is not the case).
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RE: Yahwah - 9/5/2008 8:04:19 AM
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Haran
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MichaelTheeArchAngel
In the 1611 King James New Testatment the name Yahshua appeared originally wherever the Messiah was spoken of. But shortly afterward it was changed.
Pardon my saying so, but I don't believe this. To my knowledge, which is admittedly limited when it comes to the original KJV, it more likely read Iesus for Jesus.
Don't believe everything you read unless you can provide proof. Can you provide proof in the form of images of an original KJV showing the name Yashua?
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RE: Yahwah - 9/5/2008 8:28:13 AM
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MichaelTheeArchAngel
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Biblical Hebrew=Yahshua. Modern Hebrew= Yeshua. English= Joshua or Yahshua. Spanish= Josué or Joshua. Greek= Iesous? The Greek and Latin do not add up. Jesus= Iesus?= Esus= Hesus. So who is Jesus or Esus?
quote:
ORIGINAL: Haran
quote:
ORIGINAL: MichaelTheeArchAngel
In the 1611 King James New Testatment the name Yahshua appeared originally wherever the Messiah was spoken of. But shortly afterward it was changed.
Pardon my saying so, but I don't believe this. To my knowledge, which is admittedly limited when it comes to the original KJV, it more likely read Iesus for Jesus.
Don't believe everything you read unless you can provide proof. Can you provide proof in the form of images of an original KJV showing the name Yashua?
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RE: Yahwah - 9/5/2008 11:27:05 AM
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Lapidoth
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quote:
So who is Jesus
There were many by that name (whether hebrew or what of the time),
but the one born of a virgin in Bethlehem who ministered in Nazareth
is the Messiah, Redeemer, Lover of our souls, Saviour, King, Lord, Creator,
Everlasting Father, etc.
He's grand.
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BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Yahwah - 9/5/2008 11:29:08 AM
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Lapidoth
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quote:
the "right translation" is often only exists in the eye of the beholder
That would be the NLT.............lol.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Yahwah - 9/5/2008 2:24:14 PM
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DaveW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MichaelTheeArchAngel
In the 1611 King James New Testatment the name Yahshua appeared originally wherever the Messiah was spoken of. But shortly afterward it was changed. From the 1611 KJV:
Mat 1:1 The booke of the generation of Iesus Christ, the sonne of Dauid, the sonne of Abraham.
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We are now grandparents TWICE!!
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RE: Yahwah - 9/6/2008 10:48:31 AM
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Haran
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MichaelTheeArchAngel
Biblical Hebrew=Yahshua. Modern Hebrew= Yeshua. English= Joshua or Yahshua. Spanish= Josué or Joshua. Greek= Iesous? The Greek and Latin do not add up. Jesus= Iesus?= Esus= Hesus. So who is Jesus or Esus?
I've explained this before in this thread, but I'll try again in a little different way.
Who is Esus?
Answer: This is a pronunciation, not a spelling and it is not related to Jesus.
Who is Hesus?
Answer: This is a Spanish pronunciation, not a spelling and it is merely how the letter "J" sounds in Spanish. (See further discussion of "I" and "J" below.)
How do we know the name of our Messiah?
Answer: The New Testament
What language is used in the oldest known manuscripts of the New Testament?
Answer: Greek
What was the name of our Messiah in the Greek New Testament?
Answer: ιησους, ιησου, ιησουν (IESOUS - nominative/dative case, IESOU - genitive case, IHSOUN - accusative case)
What are these case endings on the name?
Answer: They indicate to the speaker/reader whether the noun is the subject, predicate, or whether the noun is possessive (e.g. genitive = possessive = IESOU = of Jesus or Jesus').
So, we can only know the name of our Messiah through Greek as IESOUS?
Answer: Yes and No. Yes, because Greek is the language through which his name was transmitted to us. No, because those who have read the Greek Septuagint (Old Testament) and the texts of 1st century Jews like Josephus and Philo know that the Hebrew name Yehoshua/Yeshua became IESOUS in those Greek texts. It is fairly safe to assume then, based on this, that our Messiah's Hebrew name was also likely Yehoshua/Yeshua/Yeshu.
So, how does IESOUS = Yehoshua/Yehsua/Yeshu ?!
Answer: Greek letter that most closely represent the Hebrew sounds were chosen. Of course, the Hebrew Yehoshua/Yeshua/Yeshu was not the only name that was transliterated into Greek. Most of the names were transliterated (not translated...transliteration is different in that it merely seeks to represent the sounds of the original language).
ι = י
η = sheva
σ = ש
ου = ו
Y = I (Iota was the closest sound in Greek to represent the Hebrew yod.)
E = E (The sheva is often represented by an 'E' in English and an eta in Greek)
SH = S (No 'sh' in Greek. Closest sound, sigma, was chosen to represent the 'sh' sound.)
U = OU (The 'ou' dipthong in Greek was chosen to represent the sound of the Hebrew vav.)
A (As you pointed out, many scholars believe the final aleph was often dropped in Galilean Hebrew.)
Ok, now I get that IESOUS is just Yehoshua/Yeshua/Yeshu represented in Greek letters, but who is Jesus!?
Answer: Just by sight one can see the similarity between the Greek IESOUS and the English Jesus and understand that the difference has mainly to do with the confusion of sounds between languages over time.
IESOUS, IESOU, IESOUN in Greek easily became
IESUS, IESU, IESUM in Latin (Note the case endings.)
I'm not familiar with the exact trajectory of the name, but it is relatively safe to speculate that the Latin came over into languages such as German. In German, the letter "J" sounds like "I" or "Y" so the Latin IESUS came into German as JESUS with a "J", but it was still pronounced "YESOUS".
English is a Germanic language, so the form JESUS with a "J" came over into English. I'm not real familiar with when the distinction between the sound of "I" and "J" came about, but you can probably find out by looking in Wikipedia or some reputable source. There was a lot of confusion in form and pronunciation of "I" and "J" for a period of time it seems. Eventually, the "J" changed from the Germanic "yuh" sound to the different "gee" sound that we use today.
If you look up some images of the original 1611 KJV, you will see what looks like JESUS, but if you look a little closer, you'll notice that the same letter "J" is used as an "I" in other places. Very interesting...
I sincerely hope this helps. Regardless, it was fun to write. I'm no authority, for sure, but some of this isn't rocket science. Anything later than the Greek and Latin is just reasonable conjecture on my part, but you could probably find a better explanation online somewhere of exactly how change between "I" and "J" came about.
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RE: Yahwah - 9/6/2008 10:50:37 AM
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Haran
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oops. double post.
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RE: Yahwah - 9/6/2008 7:18:03 PM
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chadinho
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I believe Hebrew scholars theorize that the name was most likely pronounced "Yahweh" not "Yahwah", however it is only a scholarly guess. The Israelites stopped speaking the name out loud a very long time ago and because of that no one is really sure how it was pronounced. But thats just being technical. God has many Hebrew names and titles and he answers to all of them.
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RE: Yahwah - 9/7/2008 1:20:58 AM
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MichaelTheeArchAngel
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English word “help” translated to Greek is “βοήθεια.”
English word “save” translated to Greek is “αποθηκεύω.”
English word “savior” translated to Greek is “σωτήρα.”
English word “salvation” translated to Greek is “σωτηρίας.”
English word “Jesus” translated to Greek is “Ιησούς.”
English word “Zeus” translated to Greek is “Δίας.”
English word “help” translated to Italian is “aiuto.”
English word “save” translated to Italian is “salvare.”
English word “savior” translated to Italian is “salvatore.”
English word “salvation” translated to Italian is “salvezza.”
English word “Jesus” translated to Italian is “Gesù.”
English word “Zeus” translated to Italian is “Zeus.”
And "sus or suis" is a pig in latin. In the New Testament Jesus and Joshua are the same Greek word. The Catholics who introduced the word Jesus have Joshua and Jesus as different words. We know as a matter of fact how the word "Shua" translates, but where is it? The Hebrew word Yahshua means: Life Savior. But where is that in the name Jesus?quote:
ORIGINAL: Haran
oops. double post.
Oh, and thanks for your hard work. I did copy it as note worthy.
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RE: Yahwah - 9/7/2008 10:37:08 AM
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Haran
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MichaelTheeArchAngel
English word “save” translated to Greek is “αποθηκεύω.”
This word means "to store" and only "to save" in a modern sense of "saving/storing" something. Think apothecary...."storehouse/warehouse"....
The word you are looking for is σώζω.
quote:
ORIGINAL: MichaelTheeArchAngel
English word “savior” translated to Greek is “σωτήρα.”
σωτήρ
quote:
ORIGINAL: MichaelTheeArchAngel
English word “salvation” translated to Greek is “σωτηρίας.”
σωτηρία
quote:
ORIGINAL: MichaelTheeArchAngel
English word “Zeus” translated to Greek is “Δίας.”
Διός
quote:
ORIGINAL: MichaelTheeArchAngel
English word “help” translated to Italian is “aiuto.”
Why do we care about Italian?
quote:
ORIGINAL: MichaelTheeArchAngel
In the New Testament Jesus and Joshua are the same Greek word. The Catholics who introduced the word Jesus have Joshua and Jesus as different words. We know as a matter of fact how the word "Shua" translates, but where is it? The Hebrew word Yahshua means: Life Savior. But where is that in the name Jesus?
Previous posts have already answered these questions. Jesus' name was not translated. It was transliterated. There is a big difference. And, again, Yeshua (nor "Yahshua" as you have it) do not mean "Life Savior". The Hebrew word for "life" is not found in the name. Translated, the name would be "Yahweh saves" or "Yahweh is salvation".
I don't know how you define "Catholics", but the Latin still has Joshua as "IESUS", so early Latin Catholics still thought of them as the same name.
I'm not sure when the difference between Jesus and Joshua was introduced but it appears to have happened as Romantic and Germanic languages absorbed them. But remember that the Catholic church has used, and still uses to this day (I believe), the Latin (in which there is no distinction between the two names). I suspect that, when translating into newer languages, someone somewhere decided that the three places in the New Testament where Latin IESUS is Joshua (Luk 3:29, Acts 7:45, Heb 4:8) might confuse the reader as to whether Christ or Joshua was intended, and so the two forms entered Romantic and Germanic languages with a slight distinction. There is no conspiracy, coverup, or slander in the name Jesus.
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RE: Yahwah - 9/7/2008 8:32:06 PM
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DaveW
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The difference goes way back further than the Romans or the Germans.
Hebrew (Jesus) Yeshua
Hebrew (Joshua) Yehoshua
The original hebrew spelling is different.
Hebrew for Life is Chaim (usually plural) and occasionally Chai (singular).
_____________________________
Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
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RE: Yahwah - 9/7/2008 9:27:35 PM
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Haran
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
The difference goes way back further than the Romans or the Germans.
Hebrew (Jesus) Yeshua
Hebrew (Joshua) Yehoshua
The original hebrew spelling is different.
In Nehemiah, Joshua is also spelled Yeshua. So, I do not believe that the difference between Yehoshua and Yeshua is what produced the difference between Jesus and Joshua.
I discovered that I was incorrect in my previous post. What I wrote implied that the Latin Vulgate used the form IESUS only for both Joshua and Jesus. This is not the case. In most of the Latin Old Testament, IOSUE is used for Joshua. However, in some of the late prophetical books like Zechariah, Joshua (Yehoshua, not Yeshua) is spelled IESUS. This is what confused me. So, there was some distinction between the two names in the Latin Vulgate.
Although I'm not sure why some of the later prophetical books use the form IESUS, I can believe that Jerome may simply have been attempting to draw a distinction using different transliterations between the Joshua of the Old Testament and the Joshua (i.e. Jesus Christ) of the New Testament.
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RE: Yahwah - 9/7/2008 10:17:36 PM
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DaveW
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Can you give an example of Yeshua being used in the Hebrew Prophets? If it is talking about a different person (like the high priest) and not Joshua the son of nun, it is altogether possible that that person had the name Yeshua which should have been transliterated differently.
Please note the KJV often transliterated names differently between OT and NT even when speaking of the same person.
_____________________________
Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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RE: Yahwah - 9/7/2008 11:57:03 PM
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MichaelTheeArchAngel
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The translation Yahwah is in part based upon the Aramaic also.
quote:
ORIGINAL: chadinho
I believe Hebrew scholars theorize that the name was most likely pronounced "Yahweh" not "Yahwah", however it is only a scholarly guess. The Israelites stopped speaking the name out loud a very long time ago and because of that no one is really sure how it was pronounced. But thats just being technical. God has many Hebrew names and titles and he answers to all of them.
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RE: Yahwah - 9/8/2008 12:06:29 AM
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MichaelTheeArchAngel
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In regards to "chai," if you compare the Aramaic to the Hebrew you can see the change. I do not think that "chai" was part of the original Hebrew.
quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
The difference goes way back further than the Romans or the Germans.
Hebrew (Jesus) Yeshua
Hebrew (Joshua) Yehoshua
The original hebrew spelling is different.
Hebrew for Life is Chaim (usually plural) and occasionally Chai (singular).
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