God has to Send Sinners to Hell (Full Version)

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IMA_CHRISTIAN -> God has to Send Sinners to Hell (7/29/2008 3:22:50 PM)

Just think about it - if God is love, and will forgive everyone, then based on that, God ought to let in every sinner into heaven - so for eternity you would be sharing the beautiful perfect spotless holy heaven where holy God is, along with fornicators, liars, abusers, thieves, atheists and other folks who hate God. The God haters would prolly want to go off into thier own little corner of heaven and decide to find something to smoke or drink or get drunk.

Heaven is no place for sinners, only ones who love Jesus and who have been washed by the blood of the Lamb.



Lapidoth -> RE: God has to Send Sinners to Hell (7/29/2008 3:54:18 PM)

it's been easy for me to see that there are two destinations.

I haven't figured out if there is a label like a "law of physics" for it.

We do wind up where our "father" is or goes.

Those who are born again by the Spirit of the Living God will be with
their "father." If Jesus is our Father, we will obtain his destination.

If Satan is our father, we will obtain his destination --- the Lake of Fire.

So, while we're still alive, it would be beneficial to come to the Father
of Life and leave the father of lies.



rcjames -> RE: God has to Send Sinners to Hell (7/29/2008 3:58:34 PM)

God sends no one to hell, the individual chooses that path;

(Joh 3:16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

(Joh 3:17) For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

(Joh 3:18) He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

(Joh 3:19) And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Thanks
RC



LCannon -> RE: God has to Send Sinners to Hell (7/29/2008 4:16:09 PM)

Right, RC(as though you need confirmation.) A sinner's destiny is destruction and self-destruction at that while saint's destiny is obedience, service and worship.



abraxas -> RE: God has to Send Sinners to Hell (7/30/2008 9:14:41 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: IMA_CHRISTIAN

The God haters would prolly want to go off into thier own little corner of heaven and decide to find something to smoke or drink or get drunk.



So no reason to complain, they're off in their own little corner. [8D]

Do you have anything nice to say about non-Christians?



JimboFletch -> RE: God has to Send Sinners to Hell (7/30/2008 9:23:54 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: abraxas
Do you have anything nice to say about non-Christians?

They were created in the image of God and the vast majority of them contribute to making life a little better for those that know them.

In addition, every Christian started out as a non-Christian. So we believers are not a special species with any superior qualities of our own.



abraxas -> RE: God has to Send Sinners to Hell (7/30/2008 9:27:59 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames

God sends no one to hell, the individual chooses that path;


Hi rcjames,

I started a thread dealing with whether or not belief is a matter of choice. Would you be interested in having a look? What it boils down to is this statement, and how it is completed:

I chose to believe in God/Jesus because __________.

I have yet to see a satisfactory completion. Or, if you or anyone else on this thread would like to take a stab at the statement right here?

thanks,
abraxas

edit to add link to thread: why did you choose your beliefs?



abraxas -> RE: God has to Send Sinners to Hell (7/30/2008 9:35:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JimboFletch

They were created in the image of God and the vast majority of them contribute to making life a little better for those that know them.


Great to hear! I guess the OP got so caught up fretting about "sharing the beautiful perfect spotless holy heaven where holy God is, along with fornicators, liars, abusers, thieves, atheists and other folks who hate God" that those "other" non-Christians didn't get mentioned. So back to the OP, why does God "have to" send those "other" non-Christians to Hell? Now we can't use the reasoning that it's to protect IMA_CHRISTIAN from all those terrible "God-hating" types.
[;)]



IMA_CHRISTIAN -> RE: God has to Send Sinners to Hell (7/30/2008 10:03:34 AM)

Abraxas. its even worse! the ones who dont make it to heaven ar going to spend eternity sufering in hell which is terrible!

please dont go there.. embrace jesus Christ as your only hope.. then you can enjoy heaven too, but more than that... you will be changed from that ol sinner to having the Savior be in your life making you a new person.

then you dont have to go off in a corner somewhere.. you will have eternal life! with God! and your sins will be washed away never to be thrown at you again. jesus is your only hope!



Dubya -> RE: God has to Send Sinners to Hell (7/30/2008 10:25:31 AM)

We need to understand the attributes of God. He is holy and righteous as well as merciful. His holiness prevents any sin from being in His presense - hence no sinners in heaven.

His righteousness demands justice for those who have violated His commandments - this is sin. Since all human beings have sinned all stand condemned.

His mercy has provided a way through His Son, Jesus Christ - who has paid our penalty and given us His righteousness so we can be in the presense of God in heaven.

Now we need to also understand that God has given humanity freedom of choice. We chose to sin - therefore our condemnation was from our own choosing. Now, God has provided us with another choice - whether or not to accept that Jesus Christ has paid our penalty and reconciled us to God. If we choose to reject Him, there is no other choice...



abraxas -> RE: God has to Send Sinners to Hell (7/30/2008 10:54:35 AM)

So we're all sinners and so God set up a sacrifice to give us a way to avoid eternal Hell and go to Heaven instead. And all we have to do is choose to accept the sacrifice. It's tough to accept the sacrifice if a person doesn't believe the story, so we can say that what we have to do is believe the story.

What would it do to your thoughts about this explanation, if you were convinced that we don't have the power to simply choose to believe something?



Dubya -> RE: God has to Send Sinners to Hell (7/30/2008 11:14:46 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: abraxas

So we're all sinners and so God set up a sacrifice to give us a way to avoid eternal Hell and go to Heaven instead. And all we have to do is choose to accept the sacrifice. It's tough to accept the sacrifice if a person doesn't believe the story, so we can say that what we have to do is believe the story.

I guess you do not choose to believe "the story".
quote:


What would it do to your thoughts about this explanation, if you were convinced that we don't have the power to simply choose to believe something?

Are you implying that we don't have the power to choose to believe? If so, on what basis do you say that?

Personally, I cannot conceive of not having the power to choose to believe... or the power to choose what to do, where to live, etc.



IMA_CHRISTIAN -> RE: God has to Send Sinners to Hell (7/30/2008 11:28:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: abraxas

So we're all sinners and so God set up a sacrifice to give us a way to avoid eternal Hell and go to Heaven instead. And all we have to do is choose to accept the sacrifice. It's tough to accept the sacrifice if a person doesn't believe the story, so we can say that what we have to do is believe the story.

What would it do to your thoughts about this explanation, if you were convinced that we don't have the power to simply choose to believe something?


Abraxas, it is a truth about our eternal destiny - heaven or hell. now just imagine - if you just cannot stand the thought of what I'm telling you - and how sinners are rejected before a righteous holy God, and you even thought i was being stuck up when i put up this topic origianlly, well, imagine how terrible and terrifying you will feel when you face Jesus as your Judge one day (since you reject Him now as Savior), and you will be cast innto the Lake of Fire where you will spend eternity.. just imagine, if you hate what im telling you now, it will be much much worse then! at least now you have a chance.. but once you die... then you get judgement.

If God should have mercy on you, and save you from the everlasting torment of hell, you can be saved TODAY if you hear his voice calling out to you... dont keep ignoring it.. one day it will be too late, he will not keep calling you, mercy and grace are here NOW, while we are alive, but after we die, TOO LATE. then you will have no one to blame but yourself, for having tossed away God's offer of the free gift of grace.. (it was not free per se, Jesus paid for it with his very own blood and life... but it is free to you and me since we did not earn it, nor do we DESERVE IT,, but God's mercy and grace will pardon us. (He pardoned me already.. thanks be to God)



abraxas -> RE: God has to Send Sinners to Hell (7/30/2008 11:41:51 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dubya

Are you implying that we don't have the power to choose to believe? If so, on what basis do you say that?

That's the essence of it. If we choose where to live, and someone asks, "On what basis did you choose to live there?" We can say, "Well, it's close to my family, I got a good job there, I like the area", etc. And those answers suffice. But if we're asked why we choose to believe what we believe, can we say, "Well, it's what my parents believed, or that's what the girl I'm in love with believes, or I like the youth activities"?

If not, what basis can we provide to explain why we chose our beliefs? If you check post #7 you'll see the statement that I'm looking for an adequate completion of. (Not holding my breath, because I suspect there isn't one, and that it shows that it's not quite accurate to say we chose our beliefs.)



Dubya -> RE: God has to Send Sinners to Hell (7/30/2008 12:22:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: abraxas

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dubya

Are you implying that we don't have the power to choose to believe? If so, on what basis do you say that?


That's the essence of it. If we choose where to live, and someone asks, "On what basis did you choose to live there?" We can say, "Well, it's close to my family, I got a good job there, I like the area", etc. And those answers suffice. But if we're asked why we choose to believe what we believe, can we say, "Well, it's what my parents believed, or that's what the girl I'm in love with believes, or I like the youth activities"?

If not, what basis can we provide to explain why we chose our beliefs? If you check post #7 you'll see the statement that I'm looking for an adequate completion of. (Not holding my breath, because I suspect there isn't one, and that it shows that it's not quite accurate to say we chose our beliefs.)


I understand your statement in post #7 and can only say that most people will fill in the blank in different ways. Some may give it more thought than others - making some responses more believeable than others. Your examples above (it's what my parents believe, my girl friend, or youth activities) are of the more shallow variety - and I agree that may be what many will say.

Generally, I would say that people come to a conclusion on what they believe based on some kind of revelation in their experience. This could be the result of a series of personal experiences which seem to have led them to their belief or perhaps personal reflection on sacred writings (like the Bible) or perhaps a persuasive evagelistic presentation.

I would say that the next question should be, how reliable is the source of one's beliefs? If the source of one's beliefs is another human being (like one's parents or girl friend) it is likely that at sometime down the road the source of their beliefs will fail them in some way leading them to abandon their previously held beliefs. A faith that is sustained is one that is based on what can be perceived as a reliable source - otherwise there will always be an element of doubt in their beliefs.

In my opinion, when someone says that they have no choice in what they believe they are actually saying "I don't want to think about it". Ultimately, we always have a choice.



Gloryandgrace -> RE: God has to Send Sinners to Hell (7/30/2008 2:13:09 PM)

Hello RC:

Its true only in a limited sense that men send themselves to hell. But in what way do they send themselves?

By remaining in sin, the resultant Judgment of God brings them to eternal fires.
By remaining in rebellion to God, that judgment of God brings them to eternal fires.
But even if man were perfectly moral, perfectly happy to exists in absolute service to mankind he would split hell wide open. Simply put, that man didnt chose hell in any form. He merely left God out of his life and injected good works, good service, a willing heart and happy sacrifices of his own life. Yet God will not be displaced even by the idol of 'morality'.

Man rarely choses hell, unless he is deceived about its actual nature. Men chose pleasure, their own pleasure in whatever form it takes.

God created hell, God issues the warnings of hell, God passes judgment to destine one to hell therefore God can only in the true literal sense send anyone to hell. Hell is a spiritual location in opposition to heaven or the physical realm of earth. No man upon seeing the true nature of Hell would for a moment take one step towards it.

Man has no more power to enter hell than he does heaven. Both are places of abode that God himself destines the creature to inhabit. The scripture says of the lake of fire " Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. "

People have to be thrown there, no one gets into it by simply choice. When we speak of it that way, we over simplify what is going to happen to the wicked and we remove the fearfulness of God's judgment making it seem as though hell is just an "alternate path" that someone can take.

John



Ezra -> RE: God has to Send Sinners to Hell (7/30/2008 2:36:09 PM)

Let's get to the heart of the issue.

1. God "has to" send sinners to Hell (the Lake of fire) because nothing unholy can enter Heaven.

2. At the same time, God has made full provision for every sinner to enter Heaven through the blood of Christ and His righteousness. Therefore there is no excuse to go to Hell.

3. When sinners hear the Gospel, they must decide to believe and repent. If they disobey the Gospel, they will remain outside Heaven.

4. Every free moral agent can and does make choices. Therefore to claim that sinners are helpless in this matter is a false claim. The Holy Spirit does convict and convince sinners, and if they will give heed to His voice, they shall be saved.

5. As to why we choose to believe God, the simple answer is that He has proved Himself to be "believable". He came to earth as the Man Christ Jesus. He suffered and died for our sins. He rose again for our justification. He offers to all men the gift of eternal life freely. Only a fool would not believe the Gospel. And it is the fool who has said in his heart "There is no God".



Diolectic -> RE: God has to Send Sinners to Hell (7/30/2008 2:58:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: abraxas

I started a thread dealing with whether or not belief is a matter of choice. Would you be interested in having a look? What it boils down to is this statement, and how it is completed:

I chose to believe in God/Jesus because __________.

I chose to believe in God/Jesus because I will not deny reality.



IMA_CHRISTIAN -> RE: God has to Send Sinners to Hell (7/30/2008 3:20:18 PM)

I choose to believe God -

because God is true! I know He is true.. I know it just as I know I have a nose on my face.



URForgiven -> RE: God has to Send Sinners to Hell (7/30/2008 3:31:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames

God sends no one to hell, the individual chooses that path;

(Joh 3:16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

(Joh 3:17) For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

(Joh 3:18) He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

(Joh 3:19) And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Thanks
RC


I am in full agreement with RC on this. God doesn't need to send anyone to hell, everyone is headed there already. Dead people go where dead people go, and living people go where alive people go. It is only through the acceptance of Christ, that one is made alive. Heaven is for the living, not the dead.

Peace



abraxas -> RE: God has to Send Sinners to Hell (7/30/2008 10:27:07 PM)

I'm going to comment on the two posts with the completed "I believe because ___" statement, because I believe that is truly at the heart of the matter. By the way, thank you Diolectic and IMA_CHRISTIAN. I have no doubt that you sincerely believe and that by embracing your belief you're showing integrity.

Diolectic writes, "I chose to believe in God/Jesus because I will not deny reality."

I sense that you make the assumption that God/Jesus are part of reality. So of course with that assumption your statement is sensible. But now you have to explain why you believe God/Jesus are part of reality. Did you choose to believe that, and why?

IMA_CHRISTIAN writes, "I choose to believe God -

because God is true!"

By stating "God is true" a person is already showing what they believe. So you can't say you choose to believe God because (you believe) God is true. This is circular logic.

Did you choose to believe that you had a nose on your face? Could you choose to believe that you don't?

For anyone who desires to believe what is true--to 'not deny reality', as Diolectic put it--there can be only one basis for believing something: it's convincing power. But once the evidence convinces a person, what room left is there to "choose" to believe that thing? The believing has already commenced!

Choice is then a matter of acknowledging what the mind has determined to be true, and of acting on that belief.



abraxas -> RE: God has to Send Sinners to Hell (7/30/2008 10:33:23 PM)

One quick continuation.

We all know that certain places of the world are predominantly Catholic, or Protestant, or Muslim. If belief is a matter of choice, and only a fool would choose to deny the gospel of Christ, how do we explain these statistics? Why are the people in, say, the SE United States more likely to "choose" to believe in Jesus and the Bible, while people in Indonesia are more likely to "choose" to believe in Allah and the Koran?

Why is the concentration of fools so disparate?



IMA_CHRISTIAN -> RE: God has to Send Sinners to Hell (7/31/2008 9:20:36 AM)

quote:


IMA_CHRISTIAN writes, "I choose to believe God -

because God is true!"

By stating "God is true" a person is already showing what they believe. So you can't say you choose to believe God because (you believe) God is true. This is circular logic.

Did you choose to believe that you had a nose on your face? Could you choose to believe that you don't?



Hi :) Well I do have a nose on my face, and if I deny the thing i see and hear when it sneezes, then I would be denying something that is plain to see and feel. I know its there. My glasses can attest that I have a nose since it hangs on it.

Same with God. I know He is real as my nose is real. Now, ironically, I am putting my whole life in someone i never actually saw unlike I can see my nose in the mirror. I am investing a lot of time and energy in someone I never saw with my eyes, or felt with my hands, or smelled with my nose, etc.

however, Jesus I beleive was a real historical figure.. in that, the man Christ Jesus actually lived. now i have not seen him since i did not live 2,000 years ago. But there were eye witnesses who actually did and they wrote about it in the bible. I therefore believe in Jesus just as I believe in any other historical person that the history books write about, i.e. Columbus, King Edward, Abraham Lincoln, etc. I dont have to have been there to believe.

God also adds one element to all his children. We are promised by that same Jesus that he was going to send the Holy Spirit who would testify to us, even me, that God is real. So I have the witness of the Holy Ghost - today - that Jesus is real - and God is real - and all that Jesus said was true.

I think thats more than circular reasoning... I have real live God witnessing to me that God is true and that the Bible is true. You can read all about Jesus for yourself. Listen to what He said and did, and even just his works will testify that He is God and that He is true. Thats the best I can think to explain it for you.



Carico -> RE: God has to Send Sinners to Hell (7/31/2008 9:28:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: IMA_CHRISTIAN

Just think about it - if God is love, and will forgive everyone, then based on that, God ought to let in every sinner into heaven - so for eternity you would be sharing the beautiful perfect spotless holy heaven where holy God is, along with fornicators, liars, abusers, thieves, atheists and other folks who hate God. The God haters would prolly want to go off into thier own little corner of heaven and decide to find something to smoke or drink or get drunk.

Heaven is no place for sinners, only ones who love Jesus and who have been washed by the blood of the Lamb.


Sorry but one cannot accept a free pardon if he rejects it. So he'll have to pay the price for his lawlessness by himself.



Gloryandgrace -> RE: God has to Send Sinners to Hell (7/31/2008 9:07:07 PM)

quote:

Choice is then a matter of acknowledging what the mind has determined to be true, and of acting on that belief.


Hello my friend Abraxas:

Heres a quick way to end the philosophy-jargon about reality and God.

Take a hammer, and whack yourself on the thumb with one swift blow. That rush of pain to your brain will immediately connect you to the reality of your circumstances. You wont doubt the existence of your flesh, the reality of what you just did and it will revive the memory of a reality call 'painlessness' which you will wish you had again to end this pain. The invisibleness of 'painlessness' even though its only a memory now, is a reality that you will not for a moment doubt, but seek after and hope to find quickly. You will no doubt seek medical aid and whatever is necessary to bring yourself back into a state that was a moment ago a mere philosophy and abstract notion.

Borrowing from my illustration, what is invisible and maybe only a memory to us can with the right motivation become a very present 'reality' and 'necessity'.
When confronted with the realities of spiritual things, all your philsophy will evaporate and the quest for 'invisible help' will become absolute with no abstraction to cause you confusion about what you are really seeking after.

When Christ reveals your actual condition in the light of His Word you will know what you need to do without confusion.

John



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