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Omniscience and The Fall - 7/30/2008 2:16:54 PM
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atheistinpeace
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As I understand it, when God created the earth, and made man on the 6th day, there was no death, no sin. Then came The Fall, and sin was introduced into the world, which God had to redeem us for by sacrificing his only son.
What I can't understand is this:
Why would an omniscient and omnipotent creator allow this - i.e. The Fall - to happen? He ends up regretting making humans - but surely he would have known this would happen.
To pre-empt a likely response: I know that Christian theology states that man was granted free will. But given the calamity of the Fall, why would God not have done something about it? Why put the tree there in the first place? And above all - why the mouthy snake who led Eve to temptation?
This is partly inspired by a Gene Roddenberry quote I like: "We must question the story logic of having an all-knowing, all-powerful God, who creates faulty humans, and then blames them for his own mistakes." For additional context, this is one of the parts of Christianity that seems exactly like a story made up by humans, rather than the literal history of the universe.
Appreciate any response.
AiP
_____________________________
'It is not what the man of science believes that distinguishes him, but how and why he believes it. His beliefs are tentative, not dogmatic; they are based on evidence, not on authority or intuition' - Bertrand Russell
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RE: Omniscience and The Fall - 7/30/2008 2:50:55 PM
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LCannon
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quote:
...literal history of the universe ?
Mortals can't agree about yesterday never the less the 'history of the universe'. One of the greatest proofs that the Bible is indeed the Word is fulfilled prophecy. Over one-third of the Scripture was prophetic at the time it was first written. It is not to be treated as speculation or superstition because of the fact that a great deal of it has already been literally fulfilled. As someone has well said, “Prophecy is the mold into which history is poured.” Fulfilled prophecy is, to me, one of the great proofs of the accuracy of Scripture. Peter has said, “We have also a more sure word of prophecy.” Since one-fourth of prophecy has been fulfilled, this means that one-fourth of one-third of the Bible is fulfilled prophecy. Man cannot guess that accurately! There were three hundred thirty prophecies in the Old Testament concerning the first coming of Christ, and all of them were literally fulfilled. No human being can guess like that.
'There's only two valid world views, speculation and revelation. I chose the revealed Word of God; anybody can speculate.' JV McGee
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"It may be that when the angels go about their task of praising God they play
only Bach. I am sure, however, that when they are together en famille they
play Mozart and then too our dear Lord listens with special pleasure."(Karl Barth)
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RE: Omniscience and The Fall - 7/30/2008 2:51:48 PM
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Jhud
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I think it's really a matter of possible worlds - as in, is it possible to create a world wherein there is free will without the existence of choices? I would say that world is not possible.
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It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
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RE: Omniscience and The Fall - 7/30/2008 2:58:12 PM
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atruefaith
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quote:
What I can't understand is this:
Why would an omniscient and omnipotent creator allow this - i.e. The Fall - to happen? He ends up regretting making humans - but surely he would have known this would happen.
AiP, a great question, yet the answer revealed in Scripture is equally great, no greater: Because God saw a greater glory for himself on the other side of humanity’s sin.
_____________________________
A series of short stories depicting the Christian faith....
www.atruefaith.com
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RE: Omniscience and The Fall - 7/30/2008 4:02:22 PM
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URForgiven
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quote:
ORIGINAL: atheistinpeace
Why put the tree there in the first place?
In order to have a love relationship with someone who is the object of your love, it is necessary for them to be free to not accept your love. The tree represents that choice. Without the choice to refuse Gods love, there can be no choice to accept Gods love.
Gods desire was the same then as it is now, He desires to have a faith/love relationship with His creation, based on freedom, not coercion. By eating the fruit, Adam and Eve chose to reject the love of their Creator and to go their own way. They acted independently of Him, which is to make themselves their own gods.
...and God honored their choice.
...and He withdrew His Spirit from them.
And man has been trying to live independently of his Creator ever since. It is only when Gods Spirit is restored within us through our acceptance of Gods only Son, that we can once again have that faith/love relationship with our Creator.
Peace
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: Omniscience and The Fall - 7/30/2008 4:03:55 PM
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Mosesman
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quote:
What I can't understand is this:
Why would an omniscient and omnipotent creator allow this - i.e. The Fall - to happen? He ends up regretting making humans - but surely he would have known this would happen.
He did know, but consider the parable of the prodical son. You cannot truely love god if you don't know what it is like without him.
< Message edited by Mosesman -- 7/30/2008 5:25:56 PM >
_____________________________
"You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another in love.
~Galatians 5:13~
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RE: Omniscience and The Fall - 7/30/2008 5:16:47 PM
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mvic
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Hi AiP,
You're making assumptions that I haven't heard before. Where does it say that He ends up regretting making humans?
Sure, we can debate free will and pre-determination for ever. But will that get us anywhere?
Let's look at it another way. He could have created pre-programmed robots to do exactly what He wanted. Not to sin. To love Him always. To glorify Him and honour Him. To love one another etc ... etc ...
But He didn't.
If you were God; would you create such robots? Why? Or why not?
So all we know (or surmise) is that He has created us as we are; and He felt it necessary to send Jesus to save us. I can live with that.
I understand and respect those who can't possibly believe it.
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RE: Omniscience and The Fall - 7/30/2008 5:22:35 PM
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Mosesman
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quote:
If you were God; would you create such robots? Why? Or why not
No, because someone loving you because they were told to isn't as fulfilling as someone loving you because they just do, (for their oun reason).
_____________________________
"You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another in love.
~Galatians 5:13~
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RE: Omniscience and The Fall - 7/30/2008 6:01:42 PM
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Forever_flying
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Can love be called love when it is forced?
Can freedom really be freedom when you aren't saved from anything?
Can strength mean anything if there's nothing to be strong for?
Can one expiriance true happiness without having had sorrows?
Can one have knowlege when there is nothing to know?
GOD let the fall happen for a reason. So HE could save us. HE wants us to love HIM by our own free will, so that everyone will know that we are not forced. To be forced to love would be a horrible thing. We can see GOD for who HE really is, because we don't have to see only the things that would make us love HIM. To know the heart of GOD is an awesome expiriance, and without a freewill I don't think we could have that joy.
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RE: Omniscience and The Fall - 7/30/2008 6:11:08 PM
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SavedByGraceMD
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I have an honest question for you AiP
Have these answers satisfied your search for truth? I think the replies you have gotten so far are right on the money. But what is your purpose for asking? Do you understand why the fall happened and why God allowed it, or are you now laughing at the christianese responses?
I don't want to offend you, I am just trying to understand why you asked, and if your question was answered in a way that you could understand and believe, what will you then do with that information.
I have seen many atheists questions be responded to with answers of truth, that make perfect logical sense, yet have seen those atheists run off to another, but what about this question.
Just curious, again, I don't intend to offend. May His peace be with you.
_____________________________
Isaiah 41:10
"Fear not for I am with you,
Do not be dismayed for I am your God,
I will strengthen you and help you,
I will uphold you with my righteous right hand"
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RE: Omniscience and The Fall - 7/30/2008 6:49:56 PM
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PureLight
Posts: 195
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mvic
Hi AiP,
You're making assumptions that I haven't heard before. Where does it say that He ends up regretting making humans?
Sure, we can debate free will and pre-determination for ever. But will that get us anywhere?
Let's look at it another way. He could have created pre-programmed robots to do exactly what He wanted. Not to sin. To love Him always. To glorify Him and honour Him. To love one another etc ... etc ...
But He didn't.
If you were God; would you create such robots? Why? Or why not?
So all we know (or surmise) is that He has created us as we are; and He felt it necessary to send Jesus to save us. I can live with that.
I understand and respect those who can't possibly believe it.
Noah's ark, right?
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RE: Omniscience and The Fall - 7/30/2008 6:58:10 PM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2458
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: atheistinpeace
As I understand it, when God created the earth, and made man on the 6th day, there was no death, no sin. Then came The Fall, and sin was introduced into the world, which God had to redeem us for by sacrificing his only son.
What I can't understand is this:
Why would an omniscient and omnipotent creator allow this - i.e. The Fall - to happen? He ends up regretting making humans - but surely he would have known this would happen.
To pre-empt a likely response: I know that Christian theology states that man was granted free will. But given the calamity of the Fall, why would God not have done something about it? Why put the tree there in the first place? And above all - why the mouthy snake who led Eve to temptation?
This is partly inspired by a Gene Roddenberry quote I like: "We must question the story logic of having an all-knowing, all-powerful God, who creates faulty humans, and then blames them for his own mistakes." For additional context, this is one of the parts of Christianity that seems exactly like a story made up by humans, rather than the literal history of the universe.
Appreciate any response.
AiP
Greetings,
quote:
This is partly inspired by a Gene Roddenberry quote I like: "We must question the story logic of having an all-knowing, all-powerful God, who creates faulty humans, and then blames them for his own mistakes."
When He depicted and had the name of God mentioned in certain Star Trek episodes, he definitely didn’t present God according to that statement.
There seems to be something missing from that quote, do you have the rest of the context of what Gene said?
LG
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Omniscience and The Fall - 7/30/2008 7:01:02 PM
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Mosesman
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"And the Lord was sorry that he made man on the earth, and He was grieved in his heart."
-Gen. 6:6
_____________________________
"You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another in love.
~Galatians 5:13~
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RE: Omniscience and The Fall - 7/30/2008 7:04:17 PM
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armydude
Posts: 16933
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From: NC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: atheistinpeace
This is partly inspired by a Gene Roddenberry quote I like: "We must question the story logic of having an all-knowing, all-powerful God, who creates faulty humans, and then blames them for his own mistakes." For additional context, this is one of the parts of Christianity that seems exactly like a story made up by humans, rather than the literal history of the universe.
Appreciate any response.
AiP
Therein lies the problem. God does not and did not blame us for His own "mistakes". In the first chapter of Genesis Adam was told to fill the earth and subdue it. Why subdue it? Because God knew that even in a perfect society, there would be a need to subdue something. Something would come up against the authority of the human that God had placed in dominion over it. What was God saying? "Snake comin!" Adam failed in that mission to subdue the adversary that was coming, and mankind was placed under the dominion of God's adversary. Note I said God's adversary not His equal, since Satan is certainly not God's equal.
Jesus came to undo that, but it's our choice to turn over Lordship of our lives to Him or to leave things as they are. Because of this, hell is no longer a punishment, but the act of God honoring the decision not to trust in Jesus.
Hope this helps.
Edited to clarify that God did not make a mistake.
< Message edited by armydude -- 7/30/2008 9:08:58 PM >
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RE: Omniscience and The Fall - 7/30/2008 9:05:16 PM
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Psalms274
Posts: 1443
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From: Georgia
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quote:
"We must question the story logic of having an all-knowing, all-powerful God, who creates faulty humans, and then blames them for his own mistakes.
Oh ... but there is such ignorance in this statement. He did not create faulty humans. In the beginning we were 'very good" ... but ... He also gave us free will. (In order to have free will there needed to be something to choose and He was willing to give the free will to us knowing we would fall.) This means we had the freedom to choose Him or turn our backs on Him. Would you wish to create something that HAD to love you ... or would you prefer that the love they gave was because they wanted to love you?
He never blamed His creation for His error ... there was no error. He does have a righteous anger when we choose the path of destruction ... but even His wrath stems from a tremendous love for us. And He indeed knew we would fall, and before the foundation of the earth ... before anyone even thought about rebelling ... before anyone was even created ... He already provided a plan for our salvation from that fall through the blood of His Son.
I love what Psalms 130 says about His forgiveness …
If you, O LORD, kept a record of sins,
O Lord, who could stand?
But with you there is forgiveness;
therefore you are feared.
I wait for the LORD, my soul waits,
and in his word I put my hope.
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I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ.
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RE: Omniscience and The Fall - 7/30/2008 9:14:05 PM
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Psalms274
Posts: 1443
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mosesman
"And the Lord was sorry that he made man on the earth, and He was grieved in his heart."
-Gen. 6:6
I'm sure He was. It is painful to watch those you love turn away from you. It is worse when you know that decision means their own demise ... but it is the result of giving the free will He gives to each of His creation. He knew it would happen and provided a way of escape for us before we were even born.
_____________________________
I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ.
< Linus w/ a friends baby!
http://piswa.blogspot.com/
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RE: Omniscience and The Fall - 7/31/2008 12:50:53 PM
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atruefaith
Posts: 320
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quote:
This is partly inspired by a Gene Roddenberry quote I like: "We must question the story logic of having an all-knowing, all-powerful God, who creates faulty humans, and then blames them for his own mistakes." For additional context, this is one of the parts of Christianity that seems exactly like a story made up by humans, rather than the literal history of the universe.
One more thing…wouldn’t such “story logic” include the idea that the universe sprang out of nothing? That idea not only seems made up…but lazy. Despite the hours of sweat and effort put into a competing theory of a transcendent, supernatural Being it’s not exactly as if there is a reasonable alternative to the great question. And after you boil down all the fantastic theories of parallel universes and alien implantations you’re still left with the same problem. "In the Beginning there was nothing, which exploded" - this is a self-defeating proposition philosophically and an assertion that cannot be tested scientifically. As far as I know, we have yet to even produce this theoretical, absolute nothing without contaminating it with something like radiation, forces, energy, etc. I have yet to see a single vacuum experiment achieve an absolute nothing by which we can test anything - of course, with a perfect nothing you can't test anything.
So putting the two assertions side by side - a God who created a creation who fell and a universe out of ex nihlo - I still think I’m choosing the far more reasonable of the two.
_____________________________
A series of short stories depicting the Christian faith....
www.atruefaith.com
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RE: Omniscience and The Fall - 7/31/2008 4:51:29 PM
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atheistinpeace
Posts: 194
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SavedByGraceMD
I have an honest question for you AiP
Have these answers satisfied your search for truth? I think the replies you have gotten so far are right on the money. But what is your purpose for asking? Do you understand why the fall happened and why God allowed it, or are you now laughing at the christianese responses?
I don't want to offend you, I am just trying to understand why you asked, and if your question was answered in a way that you could understand and believe, what will you then do with that information.
I have seen many atheists questions be responded to with answers of truth, that make perfect logical sense, yet have seen those atheists run off to another, but what about this question.
Just curious, again, I don't intend to offend. May His peace be with you.
Not offending me at all! (In reference to your third paragraph.) I've been told on these boards that it would be better if I hadn't been born, so the bar for taking offense is very high indeed...
In response to your question - I'm not on these threads to search for truth (not least because, in all honesty, I don't believe I'd find it here), and even if I was, the answers wouldn't satisfy me. The answers to this particularly question are certainly unsatisfying, however much I appreciate the time taken by others to post them (I'll expand on why when I get the time - but I wanted to respond to your point first). And even if it did make sense that an omniscient creator would concoct something he knew would go awry, there are dozens upon dozens of issues that stand firmly in the way of me accepting either theism or Christianity in particular.
Best
AiP
_____________________________
'It is not what the man of science believes that distinguishes him, but how and why he believes it. His beliefs are tentative, not dogmatic; they are based on evidence, not on authority or intuition' - Bertrand Russell
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RE: Omniscience and The Fall - 7/31/2008 4:57:57 PM
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atheistinpeace
Posts: 194
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Conquered
quote:
This is partly inspired by a Gene Roddenberry quote I like: "We must question the story logic of having an all-knowing, all-powerful God, who creates faulty humans, and then blames them for his own mistakes." For additional context, this is one of the parts of Christianity that seems exactly like a story made up by humans, rather than the literal history of the universe.
One more thing…wouldn’t such “story logic” include the idea that the universe sprang out of nothing? That idea not only seems made up…but lazy. Despite the hours of sweat and effort put into a competing theory of a transcendent, supernatural Being it’s not exactly as if there is a reasonable alternative to the great question. And after you boil down all the fantastic theories of parallel universes and alien implantations you’re still left with the same problem. "In the Beginning there was nothing, which exploded" - this is a self-defeating proposition philosophically and an assertion that cannot be tested scientifically. As far as I know, we have yet to even produce this theoretical, absolute nothing without contaminating it with something like radiation, forces, energy, etc. I have yet to see a single vacuum experiment achieve an absolute nothing by which we can test anything - of course, with a perfect nothing you can't test anything.
So putting the two assertions side by side - a God who created a creation who fell and a universe out of ex nihlo - I still think I’m choosing the far more reasonable of the two.
I'd recommend heading over to Science and Origins on this one. In the mean time, though, I can assure that - in all likelihood - many more hours and much more sweat has been put into expanding our knowledge of the universe through science - precisely to test alternatives to a supernatural explanation. And I believe we should search for an alternative to the idea that the universe was created by a force who thinks it is sinful for a woman being raped to not cry loud enough (Deut. 22). I hope that's not too tangiential, and that you can see what I'm driving at.
AiP
_____________________________
'It is not what the man of science believes that distinguishes him, but how and why he believes it. His beliefs are tentative, not dogmatic; they are based on evidence, not on authority or intuition' - Bertrand Russell
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RE: Omniscience and The Fall - 7/31/2008 4:59:26 PM
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atheistinpeace
Posts: 194
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Psalms274
I'm sure He was. It is painful to watch those you love turn away from you. It is worse when you know that decision means their own demise ... but it is the result of giving the free will He gives to each of His creation. He knew it would happen and provided a way of escape for us before we were even born.
In which case, what happened to those born before Christ? Or even the early Homo sapiens who lived before religion so much as existed?
AiP
_____________________________
'It is not what the man of science believes that distinguishes him, but how and why he believes it. His beliefs are tentative, not dogmatic; they are based on evidence, not on authority or intuition' - Bertrand Russell
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RE: Omniscience and The Fall - 7/31/2008 5:13:16 PM
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CCCdnt
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quote:
ORIGINAL: atheistinpeace
quote:
ORIGINAL: Psalms274
I'm sure He was. It is painful to watch those you love turn away from you. It is worse when you know that decision means their own demise ... but it is the result of giving the free will He gives to each of His creation. He knew it would happen and provided a way of escape for us before we were even born.
In which case, what happened to those born before Christ? Or even the early Homo sapiens who lived before religion so much as existed?
AiP
People are saved now by believing in and accepting that Jesus came, died for our sins, and rose again. Before Jesus came, people were saved by believing and trusting that God would send a Savior for their sins.
As for your questions about "early Homo sapiens...", there were no "pre-humans". Adam and Eve were the first two humans created and had a perfect relationship with God until the Fall. I know there are professing Christians that believe in theistic evolution, but I do not believe that the Bible supports this nor that the "scientific" evidence points to this.
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RE: Omniscience and The Fall - 7/31/2008 5:13:35 PM
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SavedByGraceMD
Posts: 905
Joined: 2/13/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: atheistinpeace
quote:
ORIGINAL: SavedByGraceMD
I have an honest question for you AiP
Have these answers satisfied your search for truth? I think the replies you have gotten so far are right on the money. But what is your purpose for asking? Do you understand why the fall happened and why God allowed it, or are you now laughing at the christianese responses?
I don't want to offend you, I am just trying to understand why you asked, and if your question was answered in a way that you could understand and believe, what will you then do with that information.
I have seen many atheists questions be responded to with answers of truth, that make perfect logical sense, yet have seen those atheists run off to another, but what about this question.
Just curious, again, I don't intend to offend. May His peace be with you.
Not offending me at all! (In reference to your third paragraph.) I've been told on these boards that it would be better if I hadn't been born, so the bar for taking offense is very high indeed...
In response to your question - I'm not on these threads to search for truth (not least because, in all honesty, I don't believe I'd find it here), and even if I was, the answers wouldn't satisfy me. The answers to this particularly question are certainly unsatisfying, however much I appreciate the time taken by others to post them (I'll expand on why when I get the time - but I wanted to respond to your point first). And even if it did make sense that an omniscient creator would concoct something he knew would go awry, there are dozens upon dozens of issues that stand firmly in the way of me accepting either theism or Christianity in particular.
Best
AiP
I am glad to have not offended you, and at one point I may have done so in the past. That is not my intent. As for the bar that others have set, that is just misplaced attempts to reach someone who is lost(we view you that way).
As to your response to my question, if we were able to break down all of the barriers between you and belief, would you then accept the truth that we offer you. I understand others may have tried to persuade you, and I have seen many great arguments offered to you. It seems though that when you or any other atheist gets a good answer to a question, you move on to something else.
What I want to know is that have you stopped and thought about things through which you have learned here? Or do you just place them aside, and move on to your next objection/barrier, or whatever you may call it?
Sometimes we Jesus freaks come off as naive, silly, lovey dovey, or maybe even stupid. If so, and if you believe so, we do so out of love. We want the whole world to be saved. What we have experienced with the Lord is an emotionally charged, life changing event. And at times, those emotions get the best of us. I know you are looking for intellectual arguments, and scientific evidence to prove God exists, and further more, to prove Jesus is the only begotten Son of God. I have seen this offered, and discarded like yesterdays newspaper by other atheists. What we have to offer is the love of God. We love Him, because He loved us first, and we want everyone else to experience it.
I hope and pray that you will do some soul searching as to why you are here on this forum, and what you have heard(read) and learned.
To me AiP, nothing I have ever known is more logical than God. That God was, is and always will be. That He is the creator who spoke this world into existence. That He created man in His image, and that He loves us enough to give His only Son as a living sacrifice.
I don't know what you are looking for, but I know He is looking for you...as Paul Alan said in his song...."He left the 99 to find the 1, and you're the 1". We all at some point in time are the one, and He won't stop looking until He finds you.
May His peace be with you my friend.
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Isaiah 41:10
"Fear not for I am with you,
Do not be dismayed for I am your God,
I will strengthen you and help you,
I will uphold you with my righteous right hand"
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RE: Omniscience and The Fall - 7/31/2008 5:14:48 PM
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atheistinpeace
Posts: 194
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Forever_flying
Can love be called love when it is forced?
Can freedom really be freedom when you aren't saved from anything?
Can strength mean anything if there's nothing to be strong for?
Can one expiriance true happiness without having had sorrows?
Can one have knowlege when there is nothing to know?
GOD let the fall happen for a reason. So HE could save us. HE wants us to love HIM by our own free will, so that everyone will know that we are not forced. To be forced to love would be a horrible thing. We can see GOD for who HE really is, because we don't have to see only the things that would make us love HIM. To know the heart of GOD is an awesome expiriance, and without a freewill I don't think we could have that joy.
I would contend that "Love God; else fry in hell" is tantamount to being forced to love him. Granted, this could extended to "Love God, and live in eternal bliss in His kingdom; else fry in hell". Further, there is at least some element of choice. But the supposed existence of hell surely amounts to an injunction to love God - and therefore leads to something just as horrible as being forced to love God, being as it is based to a great extent on fear.
AiP
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'It is not what the man of science believes that distinguishes him, but how and why he believes it. His beliefs are tentative, not dogmatic; they are based on evidence, not on authority or intuition' - Bertrand Russell
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RE: Omniscience and The Fall - 7/31/2008 5:16:21 PM
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atheistinpeace
Posts: 194
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CCCdnt
As for your questions about "early Homo sapiens...", there were no "pre-humans". Adam and Eve were the first two humans created and had a perfect relationship with God until the Fall. I know there are professing Christians that believe in theistic evolution, but I do not believe that the Bible supports this nor that the "scientific" evidence points to this.
Not a shred of empirical evidence points to Adam and Even being the first humans - but head on over to Science and Origins for that one!
AiP
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'It is not what the man of science believes that distinguishes him, but how and why he believes it. His beliefs are tentative, not dogmatic; they are based on evidence, not on authority or intuition' - Bertrand Russell
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Well, said.