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RE: Omniscience and The Fall - 7/31/2008 5:19:35 PM
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atheistinpeace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SavedByGraceMD
quote:
ORIGINAL: atheistinpeace
quote:
ORIGINAL: SavedByGraceMD
I have an honest question for you AiP
Have these answers satisfied your search for truth? I think the replies you have gotten so far are right on the money. But what is your purpose for asking? Do you understand why the fall happened and why God allowed it, or are you now laughing at the christianese responses?
I don't want to offend you, I am just trying to understand why you asked, and if your question was answered in a way that you could understand and believe, what will you then do with that information.
I have seen many atheists questions be responded to with answers of truth, that make perfect logical sense, yet have seen those atheists run off to another, but what about this question.
Just curious, again, I don't intend to offend. May His peace be with you.
Not offending me at all! (In reference to your third paragraph.) I've been told on these boards that it would be better if I hadn't been born, so the bar for taking offense is very high indeed...
In response to your question - I'm not on these threads to search for truth (not least because, in all honesty, I don't believe I'd find it here), and even if I was, the answers wouldn't satisfy me. The answers to this particularly question are certainly unsatisfying, however much I appreciate the time taken by others to post them (I'll expand on why when I get the time - but I wanted to respond to your point first). And even if it did make sense that an omniscient creator would concoct something he knew would go awry, there are dozens upon dozens of issues that stand firmly in the way of me accepting either theism or Christianity in particular.
Best
AiP
I am glad to have not offended you, and at one point I may have done so in the past. That is not my intent. As for the bar that others have set, that is just misplaced attempts to reach someone who is lost(we view you that way).
As to your response to my question, if we were able to break down all of the barriers between you and belief, would you then accept the truth that we offer you. I understand others may have tried to persuade you, and I have seen many great arguments offered to you. It seems though that when you or any other atheist gets a good answer to a question, you move on to something else.
What I want to know is that have you stopped and thought about things through which you have learned here? Or do you just place them aside, and move on to your next objection/barrier, or whatever you may call it?
Sometimes we Jesus freaks come off as naive, silly, lovey dovey, or maybe even stupid. If so, and if you believe so, we do so out of love. We want the whole world to be saved. What we have experienced with the Lord is an emotionally charged, life changing event. And at times, those emotions get the best of us. I know you are looking for intellectual arguments, and scientific evidence to prove God exists, and further more, to prove Jesus is the only begotten Son of God. I have seen this offered, and discarded like yesterdays newspaper by other atheists. What we have to offer is the love of God. We love Him, because He loved us first, and we want everyone else to experience it.
I hope and pray that you will do some soul searching as to why you are here on this forum, and what you have heard(read) and learned.
To me AiP, nothing I have ever known is more logical than God. That God was, is and always will be. That He is the creator who spoke this world into existence. That He created man in His image, and that He loves us enough to give His only Son as a living sacrifice.
I don't know what you are looking for, but I know He is looking for you...as Paul Alan said in his song...."He left the 99 to find the 1, and you're the 1". We all at some point in time are the one, and He won't stop looking until He finds you.
May His peace be with you my friend.
Thanks for this post - it merits a lengthy and thought-out reply, which I'll try and post in the next few days (quite busy). Bear with me!
AiP
_____________________________
'It is not what the man of science believes that distinguishes him, but how and why he believes it. His beliefs are tentative, not dogmatic; they are based on evidence, not on authority or intuition' - Bertrand Russell
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RE: Omniscience and The Fall - 7/31/2008 5:20:48 PM
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Mosesman
Posts: 27
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quote:
what happened to those born before Christ? Or even the early Homo sapiens who lived before religion so much as existed?
Jesus offered salvation to all that beleived him. Prophets where speaking Jesus's message long before he was born. He never gave a time line.
quote:
I'm not on these threads to search for truth (not least because, in all honesty, I don't believe I'd find it here)
Then why are you here?
Man has been argueing about how the universe was mad for a long time, and will never stop untill the end. Some argue about how God made the earth. Yet, some argue about If God made the earth.
I say, I know who made the earth but I don't know how. I do not wish to argue about who made the earth, but to proclaim who made it.
"He who has ears let him hear."
So tell me this, in simple terms, how do you beleive the universe was made, AIP?
-mm
< Message edited by Mosesman -- 7/31/2008 5:26:57 PM >
_____________________________
"You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another in love.
~Galatians 5:13~
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RE: Omniscience and The Fall - 7/31/2008 5:27:52 PM
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mvic
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Hi again AiP,
I'm really sorry that someone said "it would be better if you hadn't been born". I think you are as valued and as loved by God as any of us.
Let me ask you: if you were told there just aren't any answers that would satisfy you. So there's no point searching. All you have to do is believe in blind Faith as it were. Just believe without asking.
What would you do?
_____________________________
Visit http://www.holyvisions.co.uk
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RE: Omniscience and The Fall - 7/31/2008 5:39:38 PM
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Mosesman
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Who ever said iit would be better if you hadn't have been born, had no right. For God made you and they had no right to say what God did was wrong.
_____________________________
"You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another in love.
~Galatians 5:13~
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RE: Omniscience and The Fall - 7/31/2008 5:46:48 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7796
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Not a shred of empirical evidence points to Adam and Even being the first humans - but head on over to Science and Origins for that one!
Actually, there is good genetic evidence every human alive today is the product of a single common female ancestor. Call her whatever you like.
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: Omniscience and The Fall - 7/31/2008 5:53:38 PM
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Jhud
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quote:
I would contend that "Love God; else fry in hell" is tantamount to being forced to love him. Granted, this could extended to "Love God, and live in eternal bliss in His kingdom; else fry in hell". Further, there is at least some element of choice. But the supposed existence of hell surely amounts to an injunction to love God - and therefore leads to something just as horrible as being forced to love God, being as it is based to a great extent on fear.
Actually, that is really not the choice (though a typical strawman characterization of it). The choice is this: You are currently separated from God, this condition will continue perpetually unless you choose to accept the means provided by which you might be in proper relationship with Him again, for which you were designed.
It's no more compulsory then being warned that the road you are currently on ends in a cliff.
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: Omniscience and The Fall - 7/31/2008 7:02:37 PM
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Forever_flying
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quote:
ORIGINAL: atheistinpeace
quote:
ORIGINAL: Forever_flying
Can love be called love when it is forced?
Can freedom really be freedom when you aren't saved from anything?
Can strength mean anything if there's nothing to be strong for?
Can one expiriance true happiness without having had sorrows?
Can one have knowlege when there is nothing to know?
GOD let the fall happen for a reason. So HE could save us. HE wants us to love HIM by our own free will, so that everyone will know that we are not forced. To be forced to love would be a horrible thing. We can see GOD for who HE really is, because we don't have to see only the things that would make us love HIM. To know the heart of GOD is an awesome expiriance, and without a freewill I don't think we could have that joy.
I would contend that "Love God; else fry in hell" is tantamount to being forced to love him. Granted, this could extended to "Love God, and live in eternal bliss in His kingdom; else fry in hell". Further, there is at least some element of choice. But the supposed existence of hell surely amounts to an injunction to love God - and therefore leads to something just as horrible as being forced to love God, being as it is based to a great extent on fear.
AiP
Hell is justice. We have done wrong, so it is very clear that we would need to be punished for our sins. Would it be fair for a murderer who never accepted GOD to dwell in peace and happiness for all eternity with someone who was likened unto a saint in actions and did have a relationship with GOD?
Our GOD is a just GOD, and when we do wrong, we will suffer the consequences. Thus is hell.
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RE: Omniscience and The Fall - 7/31/2008 8:14:00 PM
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Psalms274
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quote:
The choice is this: You are currently separated from God, this condition will continue perpetually unless you choose to accept the means provided by which you might be in proper relationship with Him again, for which you were designed.
I agree .... hell will be where God is not .... while on this earth He brings rain for both His own and those who do not know Him. In hell, by their own choice, He will no longer provide anything.
It's like this ... you make a choice to live without Him and He gives you that opportunity to do so ... which you will find to be hell.
_____________________________
I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ.
< Linus w/ a friends baby!
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RE: Omniscience and The Fall - 7/31/2008 8:32:33 PM
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Psalms274
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quote:
ORIGINAL: atheistinpeace
quote:
ORIGINAL: Psalms274
I'm sure He was. It is painful to watch those you love turn away from you. It is worse when you know that decision means their own demise ... but it is the result of giving the free will He gives to each of His creation. He knew it would happen and provided a way of escape for us before we were even born.
In which case, what happened to those born before Christ? Or even the early Homo sapiens who lived before religion so much as existed?
AiP
First off ... for the record  there is no archeological evidence that conclusively proves that Homo sapiens existed before there was "religion." And another thing ... person with whom has a personal relationship with Christ is not necessarily religious.
Hebrews 11 talks about those before Christ ... "Not one of these people, even though their lives of faith were exemplary, got their hands on what was promised. God had a better plan for us: that their faith and our faith would come together to make one completed whole, their lives of faith not complete apart from ours." (The Message) They looked forward to the promised Messiah and we have the benefit of knowing He already came (2000 years ago). With God there is no time, and the promise had already happened in the heavenly eternity, though it had not happened on earth yet.
oops ... edited to add ... you forgot about post 15!!! 
_____________________________
I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ.
< Linus w/ a friends baby!
http://piswa.blogspot.com/
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RE: Omniscience and The Fall - 8/1/2008 4:50:36 AM
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Gazingstock
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quote:
What I can't understand is this:
Why would an omniscient and omnipotent creator allow this - i.e. The Fall - to happen?
...the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned. -1Cr 2:14
For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, "He taketh the wise in their own craftiness." -1Cr 3:19
Your presence on these forums seems no longer to be "in peace". If you truly feel the truth is not available here, at least in part, or in Christ, then you are simply here to practice your Anti-theism, and passive aggressive Antagonism.
He is Antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. -1Jo 2:22
quote:
And I believe we should search for an alternative to the idea that the universe was created by a force who thinks it is sinful for a woman being raped to not cry loud enough (Deut. 22)
Consider reading the Bible more carefully before opposing it. You have completely inverted the meaning, probably due to one of the many atheistic sites that do so regularly. The point of these passages is that the woman cried out for help, and it was no fault of hers she lost her virginity:
"But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die: But unto the damsel thou shalt do nothing there is in the damsel no sin worthy of death." -Deu 22:25
< Message edited by Gazingstock -- 8/1/2008 5:08:22 AM >
_____________________________
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Spirit teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual [ones]. -1Cr 2:13
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RE: Omniscience and The Fall - 8/1/2008 11:08:57 AM
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CCCdnt
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quote:
ORIGINAL: atheistinpeace
quote:
ORIGINAL: CCCdnt
As for your questions about "early Homo sapiens...", there were no "pre-humans". Adam and Eve were the first two humans created and had a perfect relationship with God until the Fall. I know there are professing Christians that believe in theistic evolution, but I do not believe that the Bible supports this nor that the "scientific" evidence points to this.
Not a shred of empirical evidence points to Adam and Even being the first humans - but head on over to Science and Origins for that one!
AiP
I have been in the Science and Orgins folder many times (I used to spend a great deal of time there). I have seen and read nothing from there or from my studies of Biology and the other sciences to lead me to believe that I should not trust the origins account in the Bible.
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RE: Omniscience and The Fall - 8/5/2008 1:54:59 PM
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atheistinpeace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Gazingstock
Your presence on these forums seems no longer to be "in peace". If you truly feel the truth is not available here, at least in part, or in Christ, then you are simply here to practice your Anti-theism, and passive aggressive Antagonism.
He is Antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. -1Jo 2:22
Right... I'm the Antichrist? I can assure that I am here in peace, and to help me understand the beliefs of the 2bn or so Christians I share my planet with. That said, I tend to be quite a bit more peaceful to those who are civil to me.
quote:
quote:
And I believe we should search for an alternative to the idea that the universe was created by a force who thinks it is sinful for a woman being raped to not cry loud enough (Deut. 22)
Consider reading the Bible more carefully before opposing it. You have completely inverted the meaning, probably due to one of the many atheistic sites that do so regularly. The point of these passages is that the woman cried out for help, and it was no fault of hers she lost her virginity:
"But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die: But unto the damsel thou shalt do nothing there is in the damsel no sin worthy of death." -Deu 22:25
Go back a verse and you get:
22:24 Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you.
Which is the point I was making.
AiP
_____________________________
'It is not what the man of science believes that distinguishes him, but how and why he believes it. His beliefs are tentative, not dogmatic; they are based on evidence, not on authority or intuition' - Bertrand Russell
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RE: Omniscience and The Fall - 8/5/2008 3:10:20 PM
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atheistinpeace
Posts: 194
Joined: 8/16/2007
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SavedByGrace: as promised, a response to your post.
quote:
ORIGINAL: SavedByGraceMD
As to your response to my question, if we were able to break down all of the barriers between you and belief, would you then accept the truth that we offer you. I understand others may have tried to persuade you, and I have seen many great arguments offered to you. It seems though that when you or any other atheist gets a good answer to a question, you move on to something else.
I've never intentionally shirked an argument, that's for sure. If I've let a point of discussion die out, it'll simply be because, for example, there wasn't a chance of getting any further - I wasn't likely to be convinced by the argument stated in a different way, if you see what I mean. And to be honest, I wouldn't say I've ever been given a 'great' argument - as in one that provides a really good challenge to atheism (or any belief other than Christianity).
But responding to your first point: if all the barriers between me and Christianity were broken down, and Christianity could be shown to be the best account of the history of the universe, of the spiritual realm, and of man's nature, then yes, I would accept Christianity. I'm quite some way off that though! You refer to it as truth though: this suggests to me that I appear to be in denial, which I am not - I'm in disagreement, that's all.
quote:
ORIGINAL: SavedByGraceMD
What I want to know is that have you stopped and thought about things through which you have learned here? Or do you just place them aside, and move on to your next objection/barrier, or whatever you may call it?
No, I do think them through, though it does depend on the quality of the argument offered. I've seen better arguments in the Science and Origins threads - in as much as they provide something to ponder on. I do see some interesting points of view in these threads too, though. But I can assure you I don't just forget them.
Quite often, I must admit, the arguments do have the reverse effect. And these I ponder on too. For example, when someone cites a seemingly miraculous intervention - like a sudden influx of money when in financially desparate times - it leaves me even less convinced, for I'm left wondering why God would worry about the finances of middle class Americans, yet do apparently nothing to allieve the plight of children in Africa and Asia, or not intervene, say, when Stalin or Hitler were conceived.
Other times, though, I come away with a better understanding of theology: for example, confused by the frankly barbaric decrees in Deuteronomy (kill unbelievers with stones), it was explained to me that this only applies under the Old Covenant, and therefore no longer. I'm still left wondering why such barbarism is there in the first place, and why that particular book of the bible continues to be quoted for moral guidance in other respects. But overall, I've learned something new about Christian theology, and that's a good thing.
quote:
ORIGINAL: SavedByGraceMD
Sometimes we Jesus freaks come off as naive, silly, lovey dovey, or maybe even stupid. If so, and if you believe so, we do so out of love. We want the whole world to be saved. What we have experienced with the Lord is an emotionally charged, life changing event. And at times, those emotions get the best of us. I know you are looking for intellectual arguments, and scientific evidence to prove God exists, and further more, to prove Jesus is the only begotten Son of God. I have seen this offered, and discarded like yesterdays newspaper by other atheists. What we have to offer is the love of God. We love Him, because He loved us first, and we want everyone else to experience it.
You've certainly framed Christianity in a far more positive light than some of your fellow contributors, or moreover, than prominent Christians worldwide (take the faith healers for an extreme example). Even if I don't think you're right, I can respect the motives you've described.
As for the arguments - if they're discarded, it's likely they were wholly unconvincing to the atheists you mention, and only convincing to someone who already agrees. To pick one example: "a painting doesn't paint itself, it was designed by a human. Similarly, humans must therefore also be designed, as they are many times more complex than a painting". I can see how that's convincing to a creationist. But I can say with confidence that paintings don't consist of self-replicating chemicals, whereas humans do, and therefore (and only then) discard the argument. Can you see what I'm getting at? I'll be the first to admit when an argument floors me (I'm after truth, not dogma), but that hasn't happened on these boards yet.
Best
AiP
_____________________________
'It is not what the man of science believes that distinguishes him, but how and why he believes it. His beliefs are tentative, not dogmatic; they are based on evidence, not on authority or intuition' - Bertrand Russell
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RE: Omniscience and The Fall - 8/5/2008 4:13:09 PM
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URForgiven
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"Faith must precede knowledge" - Anselm
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: Omniscience and The Fall - 8/11/2008 4:52:08 PM
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frankman
Posts: 207
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quote:
ORIGINAL: atheistinpeace
To pre-empt a likely response: I know that Christian theology states that man was granted free will. But given the calamity of the Fall, why would God not have done something about it? Why put the tree there in the first place? And above all - why the mouthy snake who led Eve to temptation?
 "Why would God not have done something about it? He did- He did! Read Eph.1:4 "For He chose us in Him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in His sight." Your right in saying that God is all knowing. Your right in saying that God created humans with a free will, yet also knew beforehand that faulty humans would fail and eat of the tree in the middle of the garden. So your question is perfectly logical. Why did God create the tree in the middle of the garden in the first place?
I am not God, nor do I know the answer to this question, so for now I won`t attempt to answer it. All I want to point out to you at this time is that the great mystery to this story is that before God created any of us, knowing that we would sin, God planned even before creation for us to be redeemed again by senting His Son Jesus to die for us on the cross for our sins. Now all we sinners have to do is believe in Jesus and we are redeemed by the blood of the Lamb. The amazing thing about this story is God did plan to do something about our downfall. This plan was there before the downfall, in fact, before creation itself.
_____________________________
"Is not My word like fire,` declares the LORD, `and like a hammer that breaks a rock in peaces?" Jeremiah 23:29
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