What is up with this?

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RubySparkles -> What is up with this? (7/30/2008 5:33:22 PM)
This: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/7529694.stm Why send your kid to school and encourage them to break the rules? Over here you don't wear jewellery to school. Period. I don't know enough about sikhism to say whether the bangle is actually significant, but the fact that this is the first time I've heard anyone making a fuss about it, makes me think that it's not that big a deal as the turban. There was a case where a christian girl's parents supported her in going to court to be allowed to wear a chastity ring to school because it was a part of her faith. She lied in saying that the ring has anything to do with the faith and the parents supported her. They lost the case. Am I the only one who thinks that encouraging children to challenge the authorities in this way is bad parenting? Aren't the parents teaching the kids that they can do what they want no matter what?

Jenny-Fair -> RE: What is up with this? (7/30/2008 5:55:51 PM)
I don't know. I have a Native American friend who had to challenge her employer for the right to wear her traditional ID bracelet. I don't see anything wrong with that.

macokjc -> RE: What is up with this? (7/30/2008 6:20:35 PM)
Rules are rules and we might not always agree with them, but they should be obeyed. I think we are teaching a whole generation of children that rules are meant to be broken if we don't agree with them. It's the principle of the idea, in my opinion. Even if they feel the rules are dumb, they will obey them - as long as the rules are not physically harmful or against the Bible. Wearing a chastity ring or a Native American ID bracelet is not commanded in Bible. Obeying those in authority over you is. If you don't like the rules - go to another school (if possible) or find another job.

LoyalGypsy -> RE: What is up with this? (7/30/2008 6:23:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RubySparkles This: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/7529694.stm Greetings quote: Why send your kid to school and encourage them to break the rules? Where did the rules come from to begin with? It says the determination was based on discrimination under race relations and equality laws, but I do not see where those apply to faith? Here is the key in bold .... quote: The judge declared the school was guilty of indirect discrimination under race relations and equality laws. After the judgment, Sarika said: "I am overwhelmed by the outcome and it's marvelous to know that the long journey I've been on has finally come to an end. "I'm so happy to know that no-one else will go through what me and my family have gone through and no other pupil will ever get banned from wearing their Kara again. quote: Am I the only one who thinks that encouraging children to challenge the authorities in this way is bad parenting? Aren't the parents teaching the kids that they can do what they want no matter what? quote: Why send your kid to school and encourage them to break the rules? Try sending a student with a Bible into that same school….that would be a better example of just how equal the rules really are…. in reference to the wording used.....> That no other pupil will ever get banned from wearing> their Kara< again. And it would answer my first question above [;)] Where did those rules come from to begin with? LG

manda59 -> RE: What is up with this? (7/30/2008 6:50:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy Try sending a student with a Bible into that same school… In the UK there's no problem with a student bringing a Bible into school.

manda59 -> RE: What is up with this? (7/30/2008 6:55:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RubySparkles I don't know enough about sikhism to say whether the bangle is actually significant It is highly significant. To a Sikh it is an external article of faith. quote: The bracelet symbolizes restrain from evil deeds. It is worn on the right wrist and reminds the Sikh of the vows taken by him, that is, he is a servant of the Guru and should not do anything which may bring shame or disgrace. When he looks at the Kara, he is made to think twice before doing anything evil with his hands. I understand the student's wish to wear it, but I think that it would have been better if the parents had officially requested permission rather than just letting her wear it and expecting it to be ok.

pbaribeault -> RE: What is up with this? (7/30/2008 8:50:38 PM)
I think that teaching children to do a good job of challenging unjust decisions made by those in authority is extremely good parenting. And I think any dress code that extends to the point of banning expressions of faith is unjust. The higher value is clearly the right to attend school on the basis of equal opportunity with students who are not expressing their faith in that particular way.

LoyalGypsy -> RE: What is up with this? (7/30/2008 9:06:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: manda59 quote: ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy Try sending a student with a Bible into that same school… In the UK there's no problem with a student bringing a Bible into school. That seems to be correct, you can bring one, ....This is what I have come up with on short notice United KingdomCouncil of Europe's resolution 1580 October 4 2007, The Council of Europe released the 'Provisional edition' of resolution 1580: The dangers of creationism in education. In each of the countries of the United Kingdom, there is an agreed syllabus for religious education with the right of parents to withdraw their children from these lessons. The religious education syllabus does not involve teaching creationism, but rather teaching the central tenets of major world faiths.[42] At the same time, the teaching of evolution is compulsory in publicly funded schools. Jagtar Singh from the Sikh Federation UK claimed the school was breaching the 1976 Race Relations Act. He said: "The department for education and schools in England have said that if a head teacher or governing body were to deny a Sikh child one of their articles of faith such as the bangle then they would be breaking the law. The problem I see with the bangle is it was not mentioned as a central tenet of a major world faith, therefore it is a symbol of salvation, Which differs from the ban of the teaching of creationism; which in itself is more equal than proposed equality laws, which has nothing to do with resolution 1580 Yet the 'Provisional edition' of resolution 1580: proposes the dangers of creationism in education. What I see is a major contradiction, meaning if the wearing of a bangle is actually under the syllabus for religious education as a basic tenet of a major world faith, If it were not being taught; then according resolution 1580 the parents had the right to withdrawal the child, but did not! And the school in like manner had the right to ban the child because she just wanted a reminder of her religion....which may or may not have been agreed in the syllabus for religious education That suggests either the syllabus for religious education excluded that portion as a basic tenet of faith or it did not, and that was not even mentioned in the article... but only that the child wanted a reminder of her religion. SO what was not mentioned in this aspect holds a ton of clout as to just what is edited from certain tenets of faith in resolution 1580 ...under a pretense; because the resolution 1580 concludes that teaching creationism in school as a scientific theory may threaten civil rights [8\|] So I guess its ok to bring a Bible to school in the UK; but their are Laws in place in other areas to ban the name of Jesus Christ as our statement / reminder of faith ;because it is a hate crime. No different than what is going on here in the US, by the supporting democratic parties and the EU. [8\|] LG

manda59 -> RE: What is up with this? (7/30/2008 9:20:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy So I guess its ok to bring a Bible to school in the UK; but their are Laws in place in other areas to ban the name of Jesus Christ as our statement / reminder of faith ;because it is a hate crime. No different than what is going on here in the US, by the supporting democratic parties and the EU. How much time have you spent in the UK, and what personal experience do you have of our education system? The name of Jesus Christ is not banned in my children's high school, nor in any other State (public) high school that I know of. The teaching of creationism is another subject entirely. And off topic for this thread, I imagine.

stampinlady -> RE: What is up with this? (7/31/2008 10:35:28 AM)
As a believer I would encourage my kids top break the law because God's says we are to obey those in authority over us. BUT if the school was breaking a law I would take legal action and have the school's rule changed without my kids breaking any rules. I do think it's wrong to encourage your children to break the rules.

manda59 -> RE: What is up with this? (7/31/2008 10:39:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: stampinlady As a believer I would encourage my kids top break the law because God's says we are to obey those in authority over us. Hmm, I think you omitted a "not" there!!! [:D]

HenriettasCat -> RE: What is up with this? (7/31/2008 4:44:02 PM)
My son attends school here in the UK. He has assembly every day where they sing hyms and pray. The school drama group just did a skit on parents day entitled "who is in the driving seat of your life (you or Jesus)" They have a board where children can post sticky notes about things they want praying for. Granted it is a church aided school but it is a state school nonetheless and 80% of children will be from non church families. I don't want to get off topic but I do want to clear that up. I'm not saying it is perfect, but I do think the British system is very different from the American one.

LoyalGypsy -> RE: What is up with this? (7/31/2008 10:47:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: manda59 quote: ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy So I guess its ok to bring a Bible to school in the UK; but their are Laws in place in other areas to ban the name of Jesus Christ as our statement / reminder of faith ;because it is a hate crime. No different than what is going on here in the US, by the supporting democratic parties and the EU. Greetings quote: How much time have you spent in the UK, and what personal experience do you have of our education system? The only personal experience I have with either is the Word of God; and by what I see in the going ons’ here in the USA school systems, Let’s say I have studied a little up on the briefs of the ACLJ in the EU arenas ...and am paying close attention to the rhetoric brought forth from that bragger in Iran; which are coming forth from the Muslim communities in the EU... and US He gives away more than most people care to pay attention to. quote: The name of Jesus Christ is not banned in my children's high school, nor in any other State (public) high school that I know of. That may be true, but for it to correct have you taken a peek to see just how many of these state run public schools are in the Islamic communities? I heard there is going to be a push to place the EU under Islamic law?? With the issue of the girl with the bangle; I can see a similarity in the courts decision Here in the Story of the Algerian blasphemy case and a Constitutional contradiction There are three accused men’s whose lawyer asked to be unnamed for security reasons, and said that although Christians are protected by the country’s constitution to believe as they wish, BUT...the court can interpret the law based on Islamic laws. “There is a contradiction there,” he said. In the truth of the words…That basically boils down to absolutely no protection because of security reasons under pretense of constitutional provision, by Islamic law. And I saw that very same likeness in the contradiction in the OP of this thread...it was just that… Islamic law was not mentioned... Same structure though I mean even though God before the Babylonian captivity had instructed the Israelites to surrender …Even Daniel in that OT account held his ground and did not compromise, even though it was the law ….So why would any well versed Christian teach their kids to keep contradictions and teach them as if it were true? quote: The teaching of creationism is another subject entirely. And off topic for this thread, I imagine. Not exactly, first of all it was not raised here as a subject, it was raised as it is written in your own law, and that it violates non-Christians civil rights... quote: what personal experience do you have of our education system? in truth is actually had nothing to do with the name of Jesus Christ, even if I did not word it properly. [;)] LG

manda59 -> RE: What is up with this? (7/31/2008 11:06:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy quote: ORIGINAL: manda59 quote: ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy So I guess its ok to bring a Bible to school in the UK; but their are Laws in place in other areas to ban the name of Jesus Christ as our statement / reminder of faith ;because it is a hate crime. No different than what is going on here in the US, by the supporting democratic parties and the EU. Greetings quote: How much time have you spent in the UK, and what personal experience do you have of our education system? The only personal experience I have with either is the Word of God; and by what I see in the going ons’ here in the USA school systems, So, your answer is none to both my questions then? quote: Let’s say I have studied a little up on the briefs of the ACLJ in the EU arenas ...and am paying close attention to the rhetoric brought forth from that bragger in Iran; which are coming forth from the Muslim communities in the EU... and US So you're just lumping all European nations together are you? Another indication that you've never been to the UK and experienced life here. quote: quote: The name of Jesus Christ is not banned in my children's high school, nor in any other State (public) high school that I know of. That may be true, but for it to correct have you taken a peek to see just how many of these state run public schools are in the Islamic communities? There are some - what's your point? quote: I heard there is going to be a push to place the EU under Islamic law?? That's news to me - where did you hear that? Could you quote your source please? quote: quote: The teaching of creationism is another subject entirely. And off topic for this thread, I imagine. Not exactly, first of all it was not raised here as a subject, it was raised as it is written in your own law, and that it violates non-Christians civil rights... We're a largely secular society, not a Christian country, so what do you expect?

RubySparkles -> RE: What is up with this? (8/1/2008 5:43:57 PM)
Thank you for your replies. I don't know where Manda and LG were going, but thank you for your contributions. [;)]

locomom -> RE: What is up with this? (8/6/2008 12:52:44 AM)
1) Surprise rules. However, I handled those instead of sending my child to do it. 2) Some of don't get bureaucracy! Seriously! Thus we don't handle it well. 3) Some rules should be broken! Don't hit me; it's true in some cases. I didn't expect my child to fight those battles. Those are adult problems. 4) Arbitrariness. We ran into this with a school. It was obnoxious and unnecessary. They asked for polo shirts in the beginning of the year. I spent good money getting my daughters and making sure they met the rules and met my standards. Mid-year they decided they only wanted polos with two buttons on the placket. We refused to buy new ones on the grounds that many people couldn't afford to buy new ones, and my daughters met the requirements and were modest. Since they had rules about too low a neckline and midriffs, the change was arbitrary and could wait for the next school year. 5) Stupidity in application-Friends in our church family had a daughter in a well-known Christian college that had a dress code requiring young ladies to wear skirts and dress shoes. She broke her leg in the winter and was "caught" wearing an athletic shoes on her good foot. She needed it for stability since the winter weather was poor. It took them quite a while to decide that this was OK. At first she was written up for a dress code violation. There are valid reasons to go to bat against rules. Some of our approach to rules depends on the type of personality we are. For example, on a home school field trip to the airport, we were waiting for a friend's husband to start the rest of the airport. All of the kids enjoyed trying the moving sidewalks nearby once. When the moving sidewalks by us were clear, as well as the ones one either side of us, I gave my daughter permission to try walking the wrong way on one of them. One of the moms freaked and reprimanded my daughter severely, say that we needed to represent homeschoolers well and not behave like that. Well, I am the kind that does that when no one is around and it is harmless. I was supervising. So we got the reprimand from one and a sympathetic smile from another mom. (Please not that the number of kids along was very small. I can figure out not to do that with a large group. We do need people who question the rules. I personally call a lot of them creative as adults and find it fascinating how this characteristic matures.

LoyalGypsy -> RE: What is up with this? (8/7/2008 4:34:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: locomom 1) Surprise rules. However, I handled those instead of sending my child to do it. 2) Some of don't get bureaucracy! Seriously! Thus we don't handle it well. 3) Some rules should be broken! Don't hit me; it's true in some cases. I didn't expect my child to fight those battles. Those are adult problems. 4) Arbitrariness. We ran into this with a school. It was obnoxious and unnecessary. They asked for polo shirts in the beginning of the year. I spent good money getting my daughters and making sure they met the rules and met my standards. Mid-year they decided they only wanted polos with two buttons on the placket. We refused to buy new ones on the grounds that many people couldn't afford to buy new ones, and my daughters met the requirements and were modest. Since they had rules about too low a neckline and midriffs, the change was arbitrary and could wait for the next school year. 5) Stupidity in application-Friends in our church family had a daughter in a well-known Christian college that had a dress code requiring young ladies to wear skirts and dress shoes. She broke her leg in the winter and was "caught" wearing an athletic shoes on her good foot. She needed it for stability since the winter weather was poor. It took them quite a while to decide that this was OK. At first she was written up for a dress code violation. There are valid reasons to go to bat against rules. Some of our approach to rules depends on the type of personality we are. For example, on a home school field trip to the airport, we were waiting for a friend's husband to start the rest of the airport. All of the kids enjoyed trying the moving sidewalks nearby once. When the moving sidewalks by us were clear, as well as the ones one either side of us, I gave my daughter permission to try walking the wrong way on one of them. One of the moms freaked and reprimanded my daughter severely, say that we needed to represent homeschoolers well and not behave like that. Well, I am the kind that does that when no one is around and it is harmless. I was supervising. So we got the reprimand from one and a sympathetic smile from another mom. (Please not that the number of kids along was very small. I can figure out not to do that with a large group. We do need people who question the rules. I personally call a lot of them creative as adults and find it fascinating how this characteristic matures. Greetings, quote: It took them quite a while to decide that this was OK. [:D] The funny thing about that statement above..... Mt 6:8 - Show Context Therefore do not be like them. For your Father knows the things you have need of before you ask Him .....is for some reason many seem to have a need to pray and ask when the obivious answer was standing right in front of them; and needless to say they are NOT going to get another answer! quote: It took them quite a while to decide that this was OK. At first she was written up for a dress code violation. Personally I wouldn’t have let it get that far, there is a way to command the angels over these types of Idiots (excuse the language! ) ... but a very simple command would have been to just to say to them, "this is what she is going to be wearing and you will do nothing about it. Talking by such experiences.... one would be surprised in certain situations of the outcomes of simple commands, meaning one will know if the rule is righteous or not by the reaction of the Father towards it in any given situation,(John 13:32) which happens immediately…. and He is not going to break any true rules and many Christians would not be saying.."What is up with this? Which is why...Personally.... if I was to wait for others in authority to hear from God on my behalf, I would still be waiting [;)] LG

Annie64 -> RE: What is up with this? (8/8/2008 6:36:11 AM)
I don't see any problem with parenting in this situation. They felt a rule was unfair and challenged it through legitimate means. That's why there are systems in place for redress. I taught my children, at least I hope they got the lesson, that we are supposed to obey all authorities, even ungodly ones, unless and until that rare situation arises where they are told to do something or not do something that directly goes against Scripture. When and if that situation ever comes up, the Scriptural rule is "we ought to obey God rather than man." They were not taught to look for this situation and expect it at any moment. At least I hope they didn't get any such message. It's more like the reason we wear seat belts. Maybe we'll never need them. Hopefully we won't. But they're there in case we do. And hopefully they'll never have to buck an authority, either. The situations described by LoyalGypsy show other legitimate uses of protest, as long as it's done in a way that honors Christ. We don't have to take everything lying down, nor do we have to teach our children to do so!

Focusing -> RE: What is up with this? (8/8/2008 3:11:06 PM)
My understanding of this verse is that we are honor God, and we are to respect authority here on earth. They said to Him, "Caesar's." Then He said to them, "Then render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's; and to God the things that are God's." - Matthew 22:21

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