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RE: Newcomers from DoD - 8/5/2008 3:18:22 AM
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Jhud
Posts: 7398
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
Of course it doesn't prove that. Surely you won't now procede to claim that the inability to prove that a pure truth doesn't exist constitutes evidence for the existence of a pure truth.
It may not constitute positive evidence for pure truth (which you have yet to define, in this thread or the other) but if nothing can be definitively proved, then you cannot say the statement, "No pure truths exist." is definitively true, can you?
In short, we can say, "Pure truth may exist".
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Newcomers from DoD - 8/5/2008 3:23:49 AM
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Bettawrekonize
Posts: 1420
Joined: 4/17/2005
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Is the statement, "there is no such thing as absolute truth" an absolutely true statement? If it's not absolutely true, then there must be instances where it's false which means there is such thing as absolute truth. If it's an absolutely true statement, then there are no instances where it's false, but then that means that that statement is itself an instance where itself is false (because it's an absolutely true statement) and it means there is such thing as absolute truth.
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RE: Newcomers from DoD - 8/5/2008 3:33:19 AM
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wayward1
Posts: 231
Joined: 7/15/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bettawrekonize
Is the statement, "there is no such thing as absolute truth" an absolutely true statement?
NO. Jhud already asked
quote:
If it's not absolutely true, then there must be instances where it's false
NO. It means it cannot be proven that there are no instances where it is false.
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which means there is such thing as absolute truth.
What?
quote:
If it's an absolutely true statement, then there are no instances where it's false, but then that means that that statement is itself an instance where itself is false (because it's an absolutely true statement) and it means there is such thing as absolute truth.
Again, please read the post I asked Jhud to read if you want to know how i feel about this.
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RE: Newcomers from DoD - 8/5/2008 3:37:06 AM
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wayward1
Posts: 231
Joined: 7/15/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
Of course it doesn't prove that. Surely you won't now procede to claim that the inability to prove that a pure truth doesn't exist constitutes evidence for the existence of a pure truth.
It may not constitute positive evidence for pure truth (which you have yet to define, in this thread or the other)
Dude come on now. A pure truth is a thing for which there is NO exception, ever. The only thing that makes it impossible for something to be absolutely true in all cases is our inability to observe it or experience it in all cases to have complete knowledge of its behavior. That post makes it very clear what I'm talking about. For the masses this is a technicality they will never think about. For people like us who want to debate this sort of thing, it is an important point of clarification to make. Given the obvious barriers to communication in these debates I thought it would help to share what "my side" calls "truth".
quote:
but if nothing can be definitively proved, then you cannot say the statement, "No pure truths exist." is definitively true, can you?
No, you can say it is functionally true. We can be very confident that it is true.
quote:
In short, we can say, "Pure truth may exist".
Certainly. That is very reasonable to say. In fact you can say many things are very likely to be purely true.
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RE: Newcomers from DoD - 8/5/2008 10:57:42 AM
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Bettawrekonize
Posts: 1420
Joined: 4/17/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: wayward1
quote:
If it's not absolutely true, then there must be instances where it's false
NO. It means it cannot be proven that there are no instances where it is false.
You are saying that there is no such thing as absolute proof, but to say that there is no such thing as absolute proof is not the same as saying that there is no such thing as absolute truth.
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RE: Newcomers from DoD - 8/5/2008 11:01:52 AM
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wayward1
Posts: 231
Joined: 7/15/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bettawrekonize
quote:
ORIGINAL: wayward1
quote:
If it's not absolutely true, then there must be instances where it's false
NO. It means it cannot be proven that there are no instances where it is false.
... to say that there is no such thing as absolute proof is not the same as saying that there is no such thing as absolute truth.
Isn't it?
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RE: Newcomers from DoD - 8/5/2008 11:03:17 AM
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Bettawrekonize
Posts: 1420
Joined: 4/17/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: wayward1quote:
... to say that there is no such thing as absolute proof is not the same as saying that there is no such thing as absolute truth.
Isn't it?
Nope. They're not the same thing.
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RE: Newcomers from DoD - 8/5/2008 11:15:45 AM
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wayward1
Posts: 231
Joined: 7/15/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bettawrekonize
quote:
ORIGINAL: wayward1quote:
... to say that there is no such thing as absolute proof is not the same as saying that there is no such thing as absolute truth.
Isn't it?
Nope. They're not the same thing.
Then finding the reason you make a distinction shall become your unending journey.
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RE: Newcomers from DoD - 8/5/2008 11:15:57 AM
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Jhud
Posts: 7398
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
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I think this seems to be turning into a definitional argument.
'Truth' in essence is a description of reality - that which actually exists. Understanding this, 'absolute truth' or 'pure truth' would simply be a completely accurate description of reality.
While it may be that as humans we inevitably fall short of deriving such descriptions, it doesn't mean they don't exist - indeed, our attempts to more accurately describe reality are aimed at moving closer to complete truths. So we accept that they exist, understanding that we are flawed in our understanding of them.
From a Christian perspective, we accept that humans cannot derive complete truths, but we also believe that we can know truth sufficiently to fulfill our ultimate purposes in this life, and we believe the best source of that truth is the only one who could possibly fully grasp it - that is truth embodied, Christ.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Newcomers from DoD - 8/5/2008 11:21:39 AM
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wayward1
Posts: 231
Joined: 7/15/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
I think this seems to be turning into a definitional argument.
'Truth' in essence is a description of reality - that which actually exists. Understanding this, 'absolute truth' or 'pure truth' would simply be a completely accurate description of reality.
While it may be that as humans we inevitably fall short of deriving such descriptions, it doesn't mean they don't exist - indeed, our attempts to more accurately describe reality are aimed at moving closer to complete truths. So we accept that they exist, understanding that we are flawed in our understanding of them.
From a Christian perspective, we accept that humans cannot derive complete truths, but we also believe that we can know truth sufficiently to fulfill our ultimate purposes in this life, and we believe the best source of that truth is the only one who could possibly fully grasp it - that is truth embodied, Christ.
I have absolutely no objection to this well explained and well thought out position on the matter of truth.
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RE: Newcomers from DoD - 8/5/2008 11:23:29 AM
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Bettawrekonize
Posts: 1420
Joined: 4/17/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: wayward1
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
I think this seems to be turning into a definitional argument.
'Truth' in essence is a description of reality - that which actually exists. Understanding this, 'absolute truth' or 'pure truth' would simply be a completely accurate description of reality.
While it may be that as humans we inevitably fall short of deriving such descriptions, it doesn't mean they don't exist - indeed, our attempts to more accurately describe reality are aimed at moving closer to complete truths. So we accept that they exist, understanding that we are flawed in our understanding of them.
From a Christian perspective, we accept that humans cannot derive complete truths, but we also believe that we can know truth sufficiently to fulfill our ultimate purposes in this life, and we believe the best source of that truth is the only one who could possibly fully grasp it - that is truth embodied, Christ.
I have absolutely no objection to this well explained and well thought out position on the matter of truth.
Good, then you agree that absolute truth and absolute proof are not the same thing.
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RE: Newcomers from DoD - 8/5/2008 11:34:07 AM
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wayward1
Posts: 231
Joined: 7/15/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bettawrekonize
quote:
ORIGINAL: wayward1
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
I think this seems to be turning into a definitional argument.
'Truth' in essence is a description of reality - that which actually exists. Understanding this, 'absolute truth' or 'pure truth' would simply be a completely accurate description of reality.
While it may be that as humans we inevitably fall short of deriving such descriptions, it doesn't mean they don't exist - indeed, our attempts to more accurately describe reality are aimed at moving closer to complete truths. So we accept that they exist, understanding that we are flawed in our understanding of them.
From a Christian perspective, we accept that humans cannot derive complete truths, but we also believe that we can know truth sufficiently to fulfill our ultimate purposes in this life, and we believe the best source of that truth is the only one who could possibly fully grasp it - that is truth embodied, Christ.
I have absolutely no objection to this well explained and well thought out position on the matter of truth.
Good, then you agree that absolute truth and absolute proof are not the same thing.
reading comprehension. post less. read more.
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RE: Newcomers from DoD - 8/5/2008 11:53:46 AM
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Bettawrekonize
Posts: 1420
Joined: 4/17/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: wayward1
reading comprehension.
Thanks for admiring my reading comprehension skills.
quote:
post less. read more.
That would be unnecessary, being that I correctly interpreted and successfully refuted what you said.
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RE: Newcomers from DoD - 8/5/2008 11:58:07 AM
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Bettawrekonize
Posts: 1420
Joined: 4/17/2005
Status: offline
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wayward1, read that. It would seem to give you a decent description of the difference between absolute truth and absolute proof
http://whatis.techtarget.com/definition/0,,sid9_gci861884,00.html
Something could be absolutely true, but it could be the case that we are unable to ascertain it's validity with absolute proof.
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RE: Newcomers from DoD - 8/5/2008 12:04:42 PM
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Kath
Posts: 16947
Joined: 2/28/2005
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wayward1
Please email community@salemwebnetwork.com concerning the status of your account. Please allow time for a response.
Please do not post under this handle or any other until you have heard from the administrator.
Sincerely
Kath
Volunteer Assistant Administrator
Please do not reply to this message within the Community.
Please do not send me PMs regarding this message as I am unable to discuss it further.
Please email Community@salemwebnetwork.com with questions, comments, or concerns. Please allow time for a response.
Posts which ignore this warning will be removed without warning and may result in other action in accordance with the Terms of Service.
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RE: Newcomers from DoD - 8/8/2008 9:47:53 AM
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Consecrated2God
Posts: 5166
Joined: 4/4/2005
From: Jesus Land
Status: offline
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MODERATOR'S NOTE :: ATTENTION PLEASE
Since this thread was started to introduce members of another community, and since those members arent' introducing themselves here, there is no longer any reason for this thread to remain open.
This thread is now closed.
Please do not reply to this message within the Community.
Please email Community@salemwebnetwork.com with questions, comments, or concerns.
Please do not send me PMs regarding this message.
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