RE: Butteville school board exploring intelligent design
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RE: Butteville school board exploring intelligent design - 8/22/2008 9:37:37 PM
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Bettawrekonize
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quote:
ORIGINAL: essentialsaltes
If they intend to put ID in science classes, I think Dover settled the matter pretty conclusively and legal counsel will, I hope, prevent local taxpayers from wasting money.
Oh, I see how it is. If local taxpayers are paying to educate people about something that you disagree with (ie: Intelligent design or Creationism) then they're wasting money, even if they want their tax dollars to go into fairly educating students about all sides of the issue. However, if their tax dollars go into indoctrinating students with only that which you agree with (ie: evolution), then they are not wasting money, even if they don't want to waste their money on evolutionary nonsense. So, that which agrees with you dictates what taxpayers should spend their money on regardless of what they want their money to be spent on.
< Message edited by Bettawrekonize -- 8/22/2008 9:44:12 PM >
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RE: Butteville school board exploring intelligent design - 8/23/2008 1:52:21 AM
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essentialsaltes
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bettawrekonize
quote:
ORIGINAL: essentialsaltes
If they intend to put ID in science classes, I think Dover settled the matter pretty conclusively and legal counsel will, I hope, prevent local taxpayers from wasting money.
Oh, I see how it is. If local taxpayers are paying to educate people about something that you disagree with (ie: Intelligent design or Creationism) then they're wasting money
No, you don't see how it is. The wasted money will be when the school board has to pay court costs in its losing fight. Ask the people of Dover. They may have gotten free counsel, but free isn't so free when you lose and have to pay the plaintiffs' lawyers.
_____________________________
"My object in all arguments is not to make any preconceived opinion of mine seem right, but merely to discover and establish the truth, whatever the truth may be."
-- HP Lovecraft, letter to Robert E. Howard 7/27-28/34
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RE: Butteville school board exploring intelligent design - 8/23/2008 9:34:51 AM
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Bettawrekonize
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ORIGINAL: essentialsaltes
No, you don't see how it is. The wasted money will be when the school board has to pay court costs in its losing fight.
I think academic freedom and open inquiry are a fight worth paying for. If taxpayers want their money to go into fighting for academic freedom and open inquiry, I see no problems with that. Academic freedom and open inquiry are less likely to win if they don't fight. It doesn't seem like teaching that which is consistent with the religion of naturalism and only that which is consistent with the religion of naturalism (ie: naturalistic philosophies like UCD) is constitutional. I think that fairly exposing students to various opposing sides of the issue is more constitutional and scientific and if taxpayers want their money to go into fighting for the scientific ideology of academic freedom and open inquiry, then I see no problem with that. There is certainly nothing scientific about teaching one side of the issue (ie: that which is consistent with naturalism) and only that side at the expense of taxpayers and truth.
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RE: Butteville school board exploring intelligent design - 8/23/2008 10:18:06 AM
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essentialsaltes
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ORIGINAL: Bettawrekonize
There is certainly nothing scientific about teaching one side of the issue
There is when there is only one scientific side of the issue.
_____________________________
"My object in all arguments is not to make any preconceived opinion of mine seem right, but merely to discover and establish the truth, whatever the truth may be."
-- HP Lovecraft, letter to Robert E. Howard 7/27-28/34
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RE: Butteville school board exploring intelligent design - 8/23/2008 10:41:27 AM
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Bettawrekonize
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ORIGINAL: essentialsaltes
There is when there is only one scientific side of the issue.
Oh, I see how it is. Your opinion gets to dictate what constitutes science. Something isn't scientific because you proclaim it not to be.
If your side is really scientific, then it should have no problems surviving even if students are exposed to criticisms and opposing views. Proclaiming that your side is the only "scientific" side does not make it so. Science does not advance by method of proclamation.
Even if your side is the only scientific side (which is false, since UCD is unfalsifiable while ID is falsifiable), they don't have to label criticisms and oppsoing views "science," so long as students who are exposed to your side are also fairly introduced to those criticisms and opposing views.
< Message edited by Bettawrekonize -- 8/23/2008 11:15:58 AM >
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RE: Butteville school board exploring intelligent design - 8/23/2008 12:09:21 PM
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essentialsaltes
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ORIGINAL: Bettawrekonize
quote:
ORIGINAL: essentialsaltes
There is when there is only one scientific side of the issue.
Oh, I see how it is. Your opinion gets to dictate what constitutes science.
No, you continue to fail to see how it is. The informed opinion of scientists gets to dictate what constitutes an accepted theory in science. The free inquiry and debate you desire is already old news. It was carried out and settled more than a century ago by expert biologists. If there is to be a shift from evolution to some other theory, that shift will again come from working biologists who have studied the evidence and made their arguments.
_____________________________
"My object in all arguments is not to make any preconceived opinion of mine seem right, but merely to discover and establish the truth, whatever the truth may be."
-- HP Lovecraft, letter to Robert E. Howard 7/27-28/34
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RE: Butteville school board exploring intelligent design - 8/23/2008 3:19:14 PM
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Bettawrekonize
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ORIGINAL: essentialsaltes
No, you continue to fail to see how it is. The informed opinion of scientists gets to dictate what constitutes an accepted theory in science.
Oh, so since you can't substantiate the position that your views are scientific, you must appeal to an alleged consensus.
quote:
The free inquiry and debate you desire is already old news. It was carried out and settled more than a century ago by expert biologists. If there is to be a shift from evolution to some other theory, that shift will again come from working biologists who have studied the evidence and made their arguments.
The issue does not get settled just because a group of people decided that only their viewpoints should be tax funded.
If you are so confident that the issue is settled, then those biologists that agree with you should have no problems introducing students to criticisms and opposing views. Doing so will only educate those students about why your viewpoint is correct. As it stands, evolution currently stands entirely on tax dollars and can't survive without tax dollars. If taxpayers don't want to pay for students to be indoctrinated with your position, then they should not have to pay for students to be indoctrinated with your position. If they want criticisms and opposing views exposed to students as well, then those criticisms and opposing views should be exposed to students. If the alleged consensus is so accurate and logical, then they should have no problems defending their position in the face of scrutiny. Introducing various sides of the issue can only further the education of students on the subject matter.
< Message edited by Bettawrekonize -- 8/23/2008 3:26:57 PM >
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RE: Butteville school board exploring intelligent design - 8/23/2008 4:51:08 PM
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essentialsaltes
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ORIGINAL: Bettawrekonize
The issue does not get settled just because a group of people decided that only their viewpoints should be tax funded.
Then it is fortunate that the scientific consensus was reached by an examination of the evidence, rather than any consideration of tax funding.
quote:
If you are so confident that the issue is settled, then those biologists that agree with you should have no problems introducing students to...
Since the issue is settled, there is no reason to teach otherwise.
_____________________________
"My object in all arguments is not to make any preconceived opinion of mine seem right, but merely to discover and establish the truth, whatever the truth may be."
-- HP Lovecraft, letter to Robert E. Howard 7/27-28/34
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RE: Butteville school board exploring intelligent design - 8/23/2008 6:04:56 PM
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Jhud
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No, you don't see how it is. The wasted money will be when the school board has to pay court costs in its losing fight. Ask the people of Dover. They may have gotten free counsel, but free isn't so free when you lose and have to pay the plaintiffs' lawyers.
They only have to fight lawsuits that atheists bring...
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: Butteville school board exploring intelligent design - 8/23/2008 6:06:29 PM
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Jhud
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Then it is fortunate that the scientific consensus was reached by an examination of the evidence, rather than any consideration of tax funding.
Yeah, just like eugenics.
quote:
Since the issue is settled, there is no reason to teach otherwise.
Settled science - there's an oxymoron.
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: Butteville school board exploring intelligent design - 8/23/2008 6:23:43 PM
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essentialsaltes
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
No, you don't see how it is. The wasted money will be when the school board has to pay court costs in its losing fight. Ask the people of Dover. They may have gotten free counsel, but free isn't so free when you lose and have to pay the plaintiffs' lawyers.
They only have to fight lawsuits that atheists bring...
I don't know about all eleven of them, but at least some of the plaintiffs in Dover were theists.
_____________________________
"My object in all arguments is not to make any preconceived opinion of mine seem right, but merely to discover and establish the truth, whatever the truth may be."
-- HP Lovecraft, letter to Robert E. Howard 7/27-28/34
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RE: Butteville school board exploring intelligent design - 8/23/2008 6:25:54 PM
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essentialsaltes
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
Since the issue is settled, there is no reason to teach otherwise.
Settled science - there's an oxymoron.
As I already said,
quote:
If there is to be a shift from evolution to some other theory, that shift will again come from working biologists who have studied the evidence and made their arguments.
Just because all scientific conclusions are tentative, from heliocentrism to the atomic theory, does not require that the scientific consensus needs to be 'supplemented' by nonscience in the high schools.
_____________________________
"My object in all arguments is not to make any preconceived opinion of mine seem right, but merely to discover and establish the truth, whatever the truth may be."
-- HP Lovecraft, letter to Robert E. Howard 7/27-28/34
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RE: Butteville school board exploring intelligent design - 8/23/2008 6:34:14 PM
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Jhud
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Just because all scientific conclusions are tentative, from heliocentrism to the atomic theory, does not require that the scientific consensus needs to be 'supplemented' by nonscience in the high schools.
More contradictions - if it is truly tenative, then there would be no harm in discussing weaknesses and alternatives - evolution is the only theory of course which can't withstand that sort of scrutiny.
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: Butteville school board exploring intelligent design - 8/23/2008 8:01:52 PM
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Embedded
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ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
No, you don't see how it is. The wasted money will be when the school board has to pay court costs in its losing fight. Ask the people of Dover. They may have gotten free counsel, but free isn't so free when you lose and have to pay the plaintiffs' lawyers.
They only have to fight lawsuits that atheists bring...
Not true in the case of Kitzmiller v. Dover. The majority of the plaintiffs were religious. All of them were Christians of noe form or another. Some were even Sunday school teachers.
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RE: Butteville school board exploring intelligent design - 8/23/2008 10:28:34 PM
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Jhud
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Not true in the case of Kitzmiller v. Dover. The majority of the plaintiffs were religious. All of them were Christians of noe form or another. Some were even Sunday school teachers.
I am not sure how you could know this unless you knew them personally, but even so they were represented by the American Civil Liberties Union, Americans United for Separation of Church and State and the National Center for Science Education. Amazing how they all found each other.
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: Butteville school board exploring intelligent design - 8/24/2008 3:55:06 AM
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essentialsaltes
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ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
Not true in the case of Kitzmiller v. Dover. The majority of the plaintiffs were religious. All of them were Christians of noe form or another. Some were even Sunday school teachers.
I am not sure how you could know this unless you knew them personally, but even so they were represented by the American Civil Liberties Union, Americans United for Separation of Church and State and the National Center for Science Education. Amazing how they all found each other.
None of those organizations are atheistic. However, the defense in Kitzmiller, which argued that ID was secular, was represented by the Thomas More Law Center, which calls itself the Christian answer to the ACLU.
_____________________________
"My object in all arguments is not to make any preconceived opinion of mine seem right, but merely to discover and establish the truth, whatever the truth may be."
-- HP Lovecraft, letter to Robert E. Howard 7/27-28/34
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RE: Butteville school board exploring intelligent design - 8/24/2008 12:12:54 PM
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Embedded
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ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
Not true in the case of Kitzmiller v. Dover. The majority of the plaintiffs were religious. All of them were Christians of noe form or another. Some were even Sunday school teachers.
I am not sure how you could know this unless you knew them personally,
Indeed. I was thinking of asking you the same thing regarding " They only have to fight lawsuits that atheists bring..."(your words.) I just assumed that you made the assumption that the Kitzmiller v Dover plaintiffs were atheists. I DO wonder why you would make that assumption though. Perhaps you are using the Discovery Institute propaganda as your sole source of information?
In any case... You might want to read up on the case a bit more. I can recommend Monkey Girl by Edward Humes which is a bit clinical and dry but full of the facts of the case. Also, The Devil in Dover by Lauri Lebo which is much more readable. Lauri knew or got to know the plaintiffs personally in the case. Perhaps your local library has a copy of one or both books.
So... the plaintiffs:
Tammy Kitzmiller: Fundamentalist Christian (p 51)
Bryan and Christy Rehm (former school board member) Christians teach summer Bible school and sing in their church choirs. They are school teachers. (p 57)
Deborah F. Fenimore: married to Joel Leib
Joel A. Leib: ancestry in Dover area stretches back to 1777.
Steven Stough: Science teacher, coach and Christian (p 49)
Beth A. Eveland: Girl Scout leader
Cynthia Sneath: not sure of religious affiliation, if any.
Julie Smith: Devout Catholic (p 58)
Aralene Callahan and Frederick B. Callahan (former school board member) Unitarians.
The Plaintiffs Attorneys:
Steve Harvey: Devout Catholic (p 6)
Eric Rothschild: Jewish
quote:
but even so they were represented by the American Civil Liberties Union, Americans United for Separation of Church and State and the National Center for Science Education. Amazing how they all found each other.
The ACLU is a secular organization that has an extensive record of protecting the rights and freedoms of religions in this country in accordance with First Amendment rights. But perhaps you didn't know this?
The AUSCS is an advocacy group for religious freedom. It is a non-sectarian and non-partisan organization. Its current executive director is an ordained minister in the United Church of Christ.
More info here and here.
The NCSE is all about promoting good solid science education. It makes about as much sense to call them "atheists" as it does to call your state department of motor vehicles "atheists."
The way they "all found each other" is: Some of the plaintiffs that recognized what was going on with their school board called their state legal services to complain. They were referred to the PA-ACLU. The ACLU contacted the NCSE. Not sure how AUSCS got in on it.
So, again, you were wrong or irrelevant on all counts.
What I am wondering is what does being a former policeman have to do with creationism? Seems to me that much of Dover's problems were due to Bill Buckingham who was also a former policeman.
< Message edited by Embedded -- 8/24/2008 12:34:57 PM >
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RE: Butteville school board exploring intelligent design - 8/25/2008 1:31:59 AM
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BVZ
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
Just because all scientific conclusions are tentative, from heliocentrism to the atomic theory, does not require that the scientific consensus needs to be 'supplemented' by nonscience in the high schools.
More contradictions - if it is truly tenative, then there would be no harm in discussing weaknesses and alternatives - evolution is the only theory of course which can't withstand that sort of scrutiny.
If teachers suddenly started teaching that apples were oranges, what would you do?
You would try to make them STOP teaching falsehoods.
That is why people will stop ID being taught in science class every time it is attempted.
You are right when you say that the court cases cannot make people stop teaching ID... but we all know that laws cannot make people stop breaking the law, so I am not sure what the point is you are trying to make.
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RE: Butteville school board exploring intelligent design - 8/25/2008 2:21:41 AM
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Jhud
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If teachers suddenly started teaching that apples were oranges, what would you do?
You would try to make them STOP teaching falsehoods.
That is why people will stop ID being taught in science class every time it is attempted.
You are right when you say that the court cases cannot make people stop teaching ID... but we all know that laws cannot make people stop breaking the law, so I am not sure what the point is you are trying to make.
But teachers aren't teaching that apples are oranges - they are teaching what the vast majority of Americans believe - that evolution alone isn't sufficient to explain the development of life on earth.
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: Butteville school board exploring intelligent design - 8/25/2008 2:26:54 AM
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Jhud
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In any case... You might want to read up on the case a bit more. I can recommend Monkey Girl by Edward Humes which is a bit clinical and dry but full of the facts of the case. Also, The Devil in Dover by Lauri Lebo which is much more readable. Lauri knew or got to know the plaintiffs personally in the case. Perhaps your local library has a copy of one or both books.
Quite frankly I am not all that concerned about what the supposed composition of the plaintiff group was - these people are typically recruited by organizations like the ACLU, AUSCS and NCSE because they are more sympathetic figures than devout atheists.
The fact is there is not a single shred of testimony that any children suffered scholastically from learning about alternatives to evolution (and there never has been) so these people are window dressing to a secularist agenda, and nothing more - it's the oldest ploy in the legal world.
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: Butteville school board exploring intelligent design - 8/25/2008 10:25:59 AM
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essentialsaltes
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ORIGINAL: Jhud
The fact is there is not a single shred of testimony that any children suffered scholastically from learning about alternatives to evolution
That was not the issue at hand. The issue was whether the board's policy was unconstitutional.
_____________________________
"My object in all arguments is not to make any preconceived opinion of mine seem right, but merely to discover and establish the truth, whatever the truth may be."
-- HP Lovecraft, letter to Robert E. Howard 7/27-28/34
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RE: Butteville school board exploring intelligent design - 8/25/2008 11:41:47 AM
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Jhud
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That was not the issue at hand. The issue was whether the board's policy was unconstitutional.
Actually, good law should turn on harm. For example, if children were being coerced into a certain set of beliefs and forced to follow certain religious practices, I would gladly join a lawsuit against such practices. But I wouldn't do so if ideas are explained contrary to those I teach my children (within reason) provided their is balance, and it isn't done as matter of advocacy.
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: Butteville school board exploring intelligent design - 8/26/2008 10:45:37 AM
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BVZ
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
If teachers suddenly started teaching that apples were oranges, what would you do?
You would try to make them STOP teaching falsehoods.
That is why people will stop ID being taught in science class every time it is attempted.
You are right when you say that the court cases cannot make people stop teaching ID... but we all know that laws cannot make people stop breaking the law, so I am not sure what the point is you are trying to make.
But teachers aren't teaching that apples are oranges - they are teaching what the vast majority of Americans believe - that evolution alone isn't sufficient to explain the development of life on earth.
Are you saying that teachers should lie to thier students? Teaching ID as science is lying. Why? Because it is not science.
Also, who cares what the vast majority of Americans believe? The vast majority of Americans don't even understand what evolution IS, how can they possible know if it is a sufficient explanation or not?
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RE: Butteville school board exploring intelligent design - 8/26/2008 11:01:35 PM
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Jhud
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Are you saying that teachers should lie to thier students? Teaching ID as science is lying. Why? Because it is not science.
Now there is a nice circular argument - why is it a lie? Because it's not science - because as we all know, science isn't a lie, right?
As typical as this is of evolutionary logic, the fact is there is no king of science issuing dictates about what is and isn't science. As much as evolutionists would like to shield their pet theory from criticism, this is America, and we are allowed to question things here - and evolutionists are going to have to fight for their ideas in classes, the press, universities, and in the public mind, just like the rest of us.
quote:
Also, who cares what the vast majority of Americans believe? The vast majority of Americans don't even understand what evolution IS, how can they possible know if it is a sufficient explanation or not?
As much as some would like a secular science dictatorship, the fact is in a pluralistic society where free expression is allowed and parents pay for schools (and research facilities) with their hard earned tax dollars, and aren't obligated to have a bunch of secularists dictate what is and isn't science. And I think many Americans see through a thinly veiled metaphysical proposition attempting to masquerade as science.
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: Butteville school board exploring intelligent design - 8/26/2008 11:46:32 PM
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essentialsaltes
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ORIGINAL: Jhud
As typical as this is of evolutionary logic, the fact is there is no king of science issuing dictates about what is and isn't science.
No, but there is a strong consensus of scientists who work in the field of biology. They, and not 'secularists', determine what is and what isn't biological science. And ID is not biological science. And thus, to teach it as science is a sham.
_____________________________
"My object in all arguments is not to make any preconceived opinion of mine seem right, but merely to discover and establish the truth, whatever the truth may be."
-- HP Lovecraft, letter to Robert E. Howard 7/27-28/34
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