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RE: Those who are separated from the love of God - 8/31/2008 9:31:05 AM
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Thessa
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ta_mosquito
Thessa and Mark - I'm confused as to what you two are arguing about. You're both saying that people in hell don't experience (or are separated from) God's love, right? So are you just arguing about whether it's God that withholds His love or the people in hell reject God's love?
Im saying that people in Hell reject his love and he is leading me to believe that he dosent think Gods love is eternal.
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RE: Those who are separated from the love of God - 8/31/2008 10:17:26 AM
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steve7150
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quote:
I've been a believer for six years but prior to six years ago i did'nt hate God, i just did'nt know God.If someone is not for God, they are against Him. What does that mean to you, steve7150?
It means to me drmark , that when you quote Jesus you must consider the context in which he speaks. He was starting his ministry and gathering disciples and making a point to them which was that they must give up everything to follow him. Thus if they were not 100% committed to him they were useless to him because they had a specific calling.
Those disciples KNEW Jesus, they were with him, they heard him, they touched him, they had to be with him or against him.
This is not a universal condemnation on all folks who have no idea who Jesus is being all against him.
If all unbelievers are against Jesus then why waste time preaching the gospel to them? The answer is because most simply don't know him.
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RE: Those who are separated from the love of God - 8/31/2008 10:26:00 AM
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steve7150
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quote:
But why would he show it? How could he show it? What would be the point after they had already rejected it?
Jesus died on the cross - he didnt die for nothing. The ones that go to hell, as u already know, reject that too. Really they arent worty of Gods love anymore after doing that.
What makes us worthy of God's love? Because we have better judgment and chose to accept Jesus. Because we are more humble,more grateful, more thankful,more moral?
Where does it say everyone in hell hates God? Where does it say people in hell can't change? What if they do, will God eternally reject them even though they repent in hell? Who is in charge of hell? Does'nt Jesus hold the keys?
What did God send Jesus to do, what was his mission? To save who?
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RE: Those who are separated from the love of God - 8/31/2008 10:28:52 AM
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Thessa
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quote:
ORIGINAL: steve7150
quote:
But why would he show it? How could he show it? What would be the point after they had already rejected it?
Jesus died on the cross - he didnt die for nothing. The ones that go to hell, as u already know, reject that too. Really they arent worty of Gods love anymore after doing that.
What makes us worthy of God's love? Because we have better judgment and chose to accept Jesus. Because we are more humble,more grateful, more thankful,more moral?
Where does it say everyone in hell hates God? Where does it say people in hell can't change? What if they do, will God eternally reject them even though they repent in hell? Who is in charge of hell? Does'nt Jesus hold the keys?
What did God send Jesus to do, what was his mission? To save who?
Look at this and tell me what you think it means...
"everlasting fire" (Matthew 25:41), "unquenchable fire" (Matthew 3:12), "shame and everlasting contempt" (Daniel 12:2), a place where "their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched" (Mark 9:44-49), a place of "torments" and "flame" (Luke 16:23,24), "everlasting destruction" (2 Thessalonians 1:9), a place of torment with "fire and brimstone" where "the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever" (Revelation 14:10,11)
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RE: Those who are separated from the love of God - 8/31/2008 4:54:22 PM
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drmark
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quote:
Thessa and Mark - I'm confused as to what you two are arguing about. I'm not arguing, at least as far as I can tell. 
quote:
So are you just arguing about whether it's God that withholds His love or the people in hell reject God's love? If there is no Love of God to be experienced, how can lost souls in Hell reject it? Can an orphan reject her/his parents' love?
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Those who are separated from the love of God - 8/31/2008 6:16:52 PM
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ta_mosquito
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From: from MN, now in Ontario :D
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drmark - okay, "argue" may have been a strong word. Sorry bout that.
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Tricia
"There's a fine line between being open-minded and empty-headed." ~Michael Coren
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RE: Those who are separated from the love of God - 9/1/2008 8:48:20 AM
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steve7150
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quote:
Look at this and tell me what you think it means...
"everlasting fire" (Matthew 25:41), "unquenchable fire" (Matthew 3:12), "shame and everlasting contempt" (Daniel 12:2), a place where "their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched" (Mark 9:44-49), a place of "torments" and "flame" (Luke 16:23,24), "everlasting destruction" (2 Thessalonians 1:9), a place of torment with "fire and brimstone" where "the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever" (Revelation 14:10,11)
In the original koine greek the word used for "eternal" or "everlasting" is "aionios" which is the plural of "aion." Aion means age and "aionios" is the plural meaning "ages" which may mean eternal but may not. Paul uses the phrase "ages to come" which meant some finite period of years.
The word "fire" usually means "judgment" and in fact it is God's judgment and "brimstone" is in fact a cleansing agent which has been misunderstood to be used for torture.
I know in our western culture we value literalism but the bible says re Jesus that he would speak in parables which mostly are symbolic.
The mission given to Jesus by God was to be the Savior of the world. The mission of Satan is to deceive and blind the minds of unbelievers (2 Cor 4.4). For now Satan is winning hands down but to quote Yogi, "it ain't over till it's over."
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RE: Those who are separated from the love of God - 9/1/2008 5:43:54 PM
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Thessa
Posts: 811
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quote:
ORIGINAL: steve7150
quote:
Look at this and tell me what you think it means...
"everlasting fire" (Matthew 25:41), "unquenchable fire" (Matthew 3:12), "shame and everlasting contempt" (Daniel 12:2), a place where "their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched" (Mark 9:44-49), a place of "torments" and "flame" (Luke 16:23,24), "everlasting destruction" (2 Thessalonians 1:9), a place of torment with "fire and brimstone" where "the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever" (Revelation 14:10,11)
In the original koine greek the word used for "eternal" or "everlasting" is "aionios" which is the plural of "aion." Aion means age and "aionios" is the plural meaning "ages" which may mean eternal but may not. Paul uses the phrase "ages to come" which meant some finite period of years.
The word "fire" usually means "judgment" and in fact it is God's judgment and "brimstone" is in fact a cleansing agent which has been misunderstood to be used for torture.
I know in our western culture we value literalism but the bible says re Jesus that he would speak in parables which mostly are symbolic.
The mission given to Jesus by God was to be the Savior of the world. The mission of Satan is to deceive and blind the minds of unbelievers (2 Cor 4.4). For now Satan is winning hands down but to quote Yogi, "it ain't over till it's over."
It means that when a person goes to Hell then thats forever. There will be no moment of getting out of Hell. If you dont believe me then read the bible. Its wishful thinking to think we have two chances. Thats what mormons think. We have ONE chance and that chance is right here on Earth. If we screw up and go to Hell then we stay there. Same thing if we go to Heaven. We will never get sent to the other place ever. Its eternal.
Read this. Maybe it will help you understand it better.
http://www.gotquestions.org/hell-real-eternal.html
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RE: Those who are separated from the love of God - 9/2/2008 5:50:03 PM
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steve7150
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quote:
It means that when a person goes to Hell then thats forever. There will be no moment of getting out of Hell. If you dont believe me then read the bible. Its wishful thinking to think we have two chances. Thats what mormons think. We have ONE chance and that chance is right here on Earth. If we screw up and go to Hell then we stay there. Same thing if we go to Heaven. We will never get sent to the other place ever. Its eternal.
I have read the bible, but thanks for the suggestion. What's really interesting is the part after unbelievers are resurrected and then thrown into the lake of fire in Rev 20 until the end of the bible. It does'nt sound like eternal torment to me.
Mormons are wrong about some things but not necessarily everything. Maybe God is as Paul actually described him, the restorer of all things.
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RE: Those who are separated from the love of God - 9/3/2008 1:57:04 AM
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Thessa
Posts: 811
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quote:
ORIGINAL: steve7150
quote:
It means that when a person goes to Hell then thats forever. There will be no moment of getting out of Hell. If you dont believe me then read the bible. Its wishful thinking to think we have two chances. Thats what mormons think. We have ONE chance and that chance is right here on Earth. If we screw up and go to Hell then we stay there. Same thing if we go to Heaven. We will never get sent to the other place ever. Its eternal.
I have read the bible, but thanks for the suggestion. What's really interesting is the part after unbelievers are resurrected and then thrown into the lake of fire in Rev 20 until the end of the bible. It does'nt sound like eternal torment to me.
Mormons are wrong about some things but not necessarily everything. Maybe God is as Paul actually described him, the restorer of all things.
Im really sorry you believe that way. Hopefully you will see the truth before its too late.
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RE: Those who are separated from the love of God - 9/3/2008 8:25:17 AM
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drmark
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quote:
Im really sorry you believe that way. Hopefully you will see the truth before its too late. Too late for what, Thessa? Do you honestly think someone is not saved based on whether they agree with our concept of the Lake of Fire? Or whether Mormons are right on some doctrinal issues? Why not let God's grace determine who is saved (and let Him guide steve7150 to a correct understanding of Scripture).
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Those who are separated from the love of God - 9/3/2008 8:35:28 AM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
Or whether Mormons are right on some doctrinal issues?
That's like saying Islam is right on a few things so it's possible they can be saved by following the Koran. I'm sorry, but faith is only as good as its object and neither Islam nor Mormons know God the Father, God the Son, nor God the Holy Spirit, so their faith, such as it is, is in someone or something no more trustworthy than the Baals of the OT - and God views them no more favorably than He did those who worshipped false gods, no matter how sincerely they did so. The Jealous God of Genesis is the same today in that respect.
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RE: Those who are separated from the love of God - 9/3/2008 8:46:20 AM
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drmark
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So you are claiming that it's "too late" for all Mormons and Muslims? Or have I misrepresented your position as badly as you've misrepresented mine, JF?
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Those who are separated from the love of God - 9/3/2008 9:02:23 AM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
So you are claiming that it's "too late" for all Mormons and Muslims?
On their current course, they are without hope.
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RE: Those who are separated from the love of God - 9/3/2008 9:20:57 AM
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steve7150
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quote:
Im really sorry you believe that way. Hopefully you will see the truth before its too late.
Why be sorry since it is God himself who said that he wants none to perish and everyone to come into the knowledge of the truth?
Can God's will be done or will Satan prevail? Was Jesus said to come into the earth to be the Savior of the world or 2% of the world?
And BTW, what do you mean before it's to late?
Do you mean that if you don't believe in the eternal torment in hell view that you are not saved?
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RE: Those who are separated from the love of God - 9/3/2008 11:04:13 AM
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drmark
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quote:
On their current course, they are without hope. Well, I disagree and more importantly so does Jesus: Matt 12:21 - "And in His name the Gentiles will hope."
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Those who are separated from the love of God - 9/3/2008 1:43:31 PM
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ta_mosquito
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From: from MN, now in Ontario :D
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MODERATOR'S NOTE :: ATTENTION PLEASE
The OP in this thread assumes the truth of an eternal hell. Thus, the veer into discussion of universalism is off topic.
Please continue on topic with the assumption of an eternal hell. Here again is the OP:
quote:
Romans 8:31-39 teaches that nothing can separate us from the love of God. I have heard that this passage is talking about believers only because those who will spend an eternity in hell will be separated from the love of God. Is there anywhere in the Bible that teaches that those who will spend an eternity in hell will be separated from the love of God?
If you'd like to discuss universalism, please do so in the Salvation Issues folder.
Thanks!
Tricia
Forums Moderator
Please do not reply to this message within the forums or chat.
Please email Community@salemwebnetwork.com with questions, comments, or concerns.
Please do not send me PMs regarding this message.
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RE: Those who are separated from the love of God - 9/3/2008 5:11:10 PM
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steve7150
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I have not seen any convincing scripture stating the folks in hell or really the lake of fire are separated from God's love. And since John said "God is love" it seems to me that if you claim hell is beyond God's love , you are in effect saying the creation is greater then the Creator.
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RE: Those who are separated from the love of God - 9/3/2008 6:01:14 PM
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Thessa
Posts: 811
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
Im really sorry you believe that way. Hopefully you will see the truth before its too late. Too late for what, Thessa? Do you honestly think someone is not saved based on whether they agree with our concept of the Lake of Fire? Or whether Mormons are right on some doctrinal issues? Why not let God's grace determine who is saved (and let Him guide steve7150 to a correct understanding of Scripture).
Im not going to lie to him. I know what the bible says.
And i didnt say he wasnt saved. I said im sorry he believes that way. And i am.
quote:
ORIGINAL: steve7150
Why be sorry since it is God himself who said that he wants none to perish and everyone to come into the knowledge of the truth?
Can God's will be done or will Satan prevail? Was Jesus said to come into the earth to be the Savior of the world or 2% of the world?
And BTW, what do you mean before it's to late?
Do you mean that if you don't believe in the eternal torment in hell view that you are not saved?
Again - im not gonna lie to him. And again...I hope he can see the truth someday. What the BIBLE says.
_______________________
Back on topic.
I still dont believe God seperates Himself from anyone.
_____________________________
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:16
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RE: Those who are separated from the love of God - 9/3/2008 6:35:50 PM
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drmark
Posts: 3143
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quote:
And i didnt say he wasnt saved. Okay, so what will happen if he doesn't "see the truth before it's too late"? Is believing there's eternal torment in hell essential Christian doctrine in your opinion, Thessa?
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Those who are separated from the love of God - 9/4/2008 1:32:38 AM
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Thessa
Posts: 811
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
And i didnt say he wasnt saved. Okay, so what will happen if he doesn't "see the truth before it's too late"? Is believing there's eternal torment in hell essential Christian doctrine in your opinion, Thessa?
I fear he will go on believing that if someone goes to Hell then they can eventually get out. And thats not right. Not according to the bible its not.
I dont know if hes a mormon or not for sure - but i spoke to one once and she said the exact same thing. That if a person goes to Hell then they can get out.
It worries me that people that think that way dont really believe in repenting or what Jesus did for us.
_____________________________
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:16
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RE: Those who are separated from the love of God - 9/4/2008 8:59:36 AM
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steve7150
Posts: 215
Joined: 5/16/2005
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quote:
I fear he will go on believing that if someone goes to Hell then they can eventually get out. And thats not right. Not according to the bible its not.
I dont know if hes a mormon or not for sure - but i spoke to one once and she said the exact same thing. That if a person goes to Hell then they can get out.
It worries me that people that think that way dont really believe in repenting or what Jesus did for us.
The moderator said to stick to topic but over the weekend i'll open this topic in the salvation issues section and i invite you to show me exactly what the bible says.
BTW not a bible translation but directly from the greek manuscripts. And believing this way has made me much much more appreciative of Jesus's work on the cross and in what he commanded of us to "love your enemy."
< Message edited by steve7150 -- 9/4/2008 9:49:36 AM >
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