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RE: What Most CCM is Lacking - 10/7/2008 10:15:14 PM
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Stratplayer
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quote:
ORIGINAL: humbleinspirit
Other instruments! The vast majority of CCM has the electric guitar, and drums, but hardly any other instrument. This is one of reasons why CCM is less appealing than other types of music. Do you agree or disagree?
Needs more cowbell!
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RE: What Most CCM is Lacking - 10/7/2008 10:28:20 PM
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rgod
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
ORIGINAL: rgodquote:
I can't tell you how many people say - I have this CD and I'll burn it for you. In my mind it is stealing. I'm in agreement with you. Everytime you do that, you are taking money out of the artist's pocket. I (as an artist) do not buy that line of thought. It assumes that everyone that gets a pirated copy of work X would have bought work X on the open market and that simply is not true. For every 10 people who would like a pirated copy, maybe only one was willing to actually pay for it. That number is a guess and probably way too high. It may be more like one in a hundred.
While I agree it is stealing, as it is defined in law that way; it also has the effect of increasing sales for independant artists. Their music or whatever gets a wider audience and more people want to buy an honest copy if they like it.
Interesting! The reason is because I think the older model of distributing music really depended more on record sales than anything else - when it came to compensation for the artist (well, apart from tours since even then, artists were paid pennies on the dollar for every CD sold). Newer artists seem to think differently - I think it has something to do with everything being digitized and with how easy it is to copy music (and how socially acceptable it is now). Which model are you more familiar with?
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RE: What Most CCM is Lacking - 10/7/2008 10:42:47 PM
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nealmorsefan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
quote:
ORIGINAL: nealmorsefan
quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
With that being said, I, in my own mind, don't separate "Christian" from "secular."
SCENARIO: You're in an industrial/techno/rock sort of mood and walk to your CD rack. Sitting right next to each other you have a Skillet CD (not the self-titled) and a random Nine Inch Nails CD. Assuming you have no other options available (without running to the CD store), which do you choose?
Depends on which album it is of either of theirs. They both had good and bad ones.
If they are both my favorite album from them, I might choose Skillet out of nostalgia, but would have no problem with selecting Nine Inch Nails over them, either.
So, Skillet albums only strike your fancy now because they meant something to you at one time? Does that mean that you consider Skillet's work inferior to other artists' works? Morever, does that mean you failed to connect emotionally with NIN when you first heard their work? Do you analyze every secular album you encounter with the same objective impartiality? Further, does that mean you rate all Christian albums based on subjective feelings?
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RE: What Most CCM is Lacking - 10/7/2008 10:51:20 PM
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Kenny Metcalf
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I have been in this industry (not famous) but involved enough to know "it's all about money".
It still is about fame, money and selling records (yes the Christian "Praise music" industry is all about money).
NOTE: I am speaking about "Praise music", not the other stuff we write and sell, just the stuff written that people sing during a church service setting.
With the internet and music downloads, the cost for Free distribution of Praise is only studio time... and many of the artists today have home studio's as well, so cost isn't what it once was. Most could do this for free if they really wanted to and sell their music that is not for church use.
This might be is a rude awakening for those of you who are not involved directly.
Touring with Stryper in the 80's was very eye opening, and I am speaking about the industry and what they do to the artists, and the long line of human carnage they leave for dead after they can't make any money off of them like they once did.
want more proof? Someome mentioned Phil Keaggy in this thread. I listened to his latest interview on Lifespringmedia.com and he talked about this very thing.
Oh, and as for fame and fortune being the motive behind Christian music still even with "Praise" as the sole focus... should you think I am off base, just attend the GMA in Nashville next April and watch the Johnny come lately's selling themselves, it's very eye opening.
There are those who are only in it for the fame and money. You sing many of their songs on Sundays. Names you know.
I have been in "ministry" since 1979. I am careful to use the word ministry. I watched the "sincere heart musician" who only wanted to touch lives for Christ with their talent, become big business. I saw that "Christian" music industry "STEAL" the royalties away from the artist (in Jesus name) and leave the masses of artists bleeding on the side of the road as they found their next victum.
I watched it become business, and ministry was only a bonus if the labels could sell it to us.
As for a laborer worthy of his hire... This man was confronted by the Holy Spirit, and I can only speak for me, he was asking.. How can you sell Praise for profit? How can you sell what was given to you by my inspiriation to give back to me, for a profit? How can you charge my people money to sing it back to me? This includes CCLI
So with that.. I will leave the Holy Spirit in charge to deal with anyone reading this.
It was after that confrontation with the Holy Spirit that I decided my praise project would be free to all.
You see.. it has come down to what is right in a mans eyes and what is right in the eyes of God.
We have made Praise a business, and the artists now capitolize on it. The carefully crafted songs have become big business. Is it about touching God's heart? I don't think so when money is involved.
Where there is Kingdom vision, there is kingdom provision. God always provides finance when it directly involves HIS vision. His disciples never had to worry, God provided as they trusted him. This concept can be very hard to grasp as well.
In the 80's it was Christian entertainment, but now it is still Christian entertainment, only tweaked & presented to us as "praise" .
Praise music was the NEW marketable package... this would surely open up sales where CCM sales started to drop. The music industry became "spiritual" again or did it only do what it has always done... re package?
It became big business again.
Now "former" Christian entertainers are thrown by the way side, (Phil Keaggy, Bryan Duncan, and the like etc.) even though they had songs that had messages in them that touched the heart of the believer. Songs that encouraged us.
This new package made them less spiritual to fill the needs of the people (even though praise is meant for God and not us.
The new package created by the industry left no place for these troubadours because they were not writing "praise music, and the new "holy" crowd is accepted because they are spiritual, but they are still the same as those from the 80's and 90's, only packaged differently.
There are still those who will play an event for free, granted, but they still charge you to sing "praise" on Sunday to God... "CCLI".
Follow the money and you will find the heart of a matter.
20 years is all it takes to re-write truth and change it to be something it is not, and 10 more years from there to make it permanent truth to the non suspecting (even if it is not truth).
They did it with homosexuality and now the little children see it as NORMAL. This is what happened to "praise music" over 20 years ago, the terminology was changed and repackaged to sell us on buying it, but in doing so.. they changed the meaning of worship, and made worship a song. I have done an in-depth study on the difference between praise and worship. It is not what the majority of believers think it is.
In that time span.. a new generation grows up and knows no different. The the generation to follow them will believe what they see displayed because that is how it has always been. It is acceptible. It is how ministry is now.. we make money from our faith, yet I find that to be everything opposite of the example Christ left to us, yet the current generation see's nothing wrong with how it is.. after-all, the Christian spin of scriptures has been applied, but the heart of the matter ignored.
Just this man's opinion from being in this industry.
< Message edited by Kenny Metcalf -- 10/8/2008 9:05:17 AM >
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RE: What Most CCM is Lacking - 10/8/2008 7:45:56 AM
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wbporter
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I have a CD that says if you make a copy of it, please send a check to .... . They suggested an amount and gave a PO box.
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RE: What Most CCM is Lacking - 10/8/2008 9:09:10 AM
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Kenny Metcalf
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quote:
ORIGINAL: wbporter
I have a CD that says if you make a copy of it, please send a check to .... . They suggested an amount and gave a PO box.
I give my "praise" CD's away and ask people to copy them and give them away. The other stuff I write and record that is not praise.. what you wrote is honorable.. if people will do that.
< Message edited by Kenny Metcalf -- 10/8/2008 9:15:57 AM >
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RE: What Most CCM is Lacking - 10/8/2008 12:08:18 PM
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1love1God1way
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quote:
ORIGINAL: nealmorsefan
quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
quote:
ORIGINAL: nealmorsefan
quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
With that being said, I, in my own mind, don't separate "Christian" from "secular."
SCENARIO: You're in an industrial/techno/rock sort of mood and walk to your CD rack. Sitting right next to each other you have a Skillet CD (not the self-titled) and a random Nine Inch Nails CD. Assuming you have no other options available (without running to the CD store), which do you choose?
Depends on which album it is of either of theirs. They both had good and bad ones.
If they are both my favorite album from them, I might choose Skillet out of nostalgia, but would have no problem with selecting Nine Inch Nails over them, either.
So, Skillet albums only strike your fancy now because they meant something to you at one time? Does that mean that you consider Skillet's work inferior to other artists' works? Morever, does that mean you failed to connect emotionally with NIN when you first heard their work? Do you analyze every secular album you encounter with the same objective impartiality? Further, does that mean you rate all Christian albums based on subjective feelings?
No, you just happened to chance upon my most subjective band, ie. Skillet.
I'd rather listen to Rage Against the Machine than Pillar because . . . they're better (not to say they are amazing . . . just better. )
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RE: What Most CCM is Lacking - 10/8/2008 1:02:11 PM
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DaveW
Posts: 4073
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From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rgodquote:
While I agree it is stealing, as it is defined in law that way; it also has the effect of increasing sales for independant artists. Their music or whatever gets a wider audience and more people want to buy an honest copy if they like it. Interesting! The reason is because I think the older model of distributing music really depended more on record sales than anything else - when it came to compensation for the artist (well, apart from tours since even then, artists were paid pennies on the dollar for every CD sold). Newer artists seem to think differently - I think it has something to do with everything being digitized and with how easy it is to copy music (and how socially acceptable it is now). Which model are you more familiar with? As a guy in my 50s I am more familiar with the physical sales of vinyl albums or CDs than downloads for $$.
Our CD distributions have all been from physical sales; not any from downloads at all.
But every marketing survey I have read that includes indie sales (both physical and downloads) have said the illegal mp3 sharing has boosted their sales. The big record companies have experienced the opposite. File sharing has lowered their sales.
I wonder if the lost sales from the majors is now going to the indies and if that is the reason the majors are coming down so hard on radio stations playing indie music.
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RE: What Most CCM is Lacking - 10/8/2008 1:07:30 PM
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DaveW
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quote:
SCENARIO: You're in an industrial/techno/rock sort of mood and walk to your CD rack. Sitting right next to each other you have a Skillet CD (not the self-titled) and a random Nine Inch Nails CD. Assuming you have no other options available (without running to the CD store), which do you choose?
Since I have neither band, I would have to choose something else. I have nothing that would fit "techno" either.
But rock, oh yeah. Blues based. Like Allman Bros or Edgar Winter's White Trash. Maybe some Steppenwolf or Alice Cooper or Black Sabbath (early stuff).
Zeppelin anyone?
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Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
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RE: What Most CCM is Lacking - 10/8/2008 9:22:08 PM
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rgod
Posts: 1475
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
ORIGINAL: rgodquote:
While I agree it is stealing, as it is defined in law that way; it also has the effect of increasing sales for independant artists. Their music or whatever gets a wider audience and more people want to buy an honest copy if they like it. Interesting! The reason is because I think the older model of distributing music really depended more on record sales than anything else - when it came to compensation for the artist (well, apart from tours since even then, artists were paid pennies on the dollar for every CD sold). Newer artists seem to think differently - I think it has something to do with everything being digitized and with how easy it is to copy music (and how socially acceptable it is now). Which model are you more familiar with? As a guy in my 50s I am more familiar with the physical sales of vinyl albums or CDs than downloads for $$.
Our CD distributions have all been from physical sales; not any from downloads at all.
But every marketing survey I have read that includes indie sales (both physical and downloads) have said the illegal mp3 sharing has boosted their sales. The big record companies have experienced the opposite. File sharing has lowered their sales.
I wonder if the lost sales from the majors is now going to the indies and if that is the reason the majors are coming down so hard on radio stations playing indie music.
Wow -- this is interesting about the indie sales. Where do you get your marketing surveys? (Just curious ...)
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RE: What Most CCM is Lacking - 10/9/2008 9:44:01 AM
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mapachito13
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
But every marketing survey I have read that includes indie sales (both physical and downloads) have said the illegal mp3 sharing has boosted their sales. The big record companies have experienced the opposite. File sharing has lowered their sales.
I wonder if the lost sales from the majors is now going to the indies and if that is the reason the majors are coming down so hard on radio stations playing indie music.
I wonder if people know that these bands are not mega-rich and support them materially. Or, the indie bands are more cutting edge than the bigger more pop oriented bands/artists on the major labels and worth plunking down our hard earned $$$$!
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RE: What Most CCM is Lacking - 10/10/2008 6:55:17 AM
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DaveW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rgod
Wow -- this is interesting about the indie sales. Where do you get your marketing surveys? (Just curious ...) As an indie myself, I have gotten a lot of stuff from Diskmakers, CD Baby, etc. and a half dozen other companies that cater to indie artists, and even subscribed to an indie newsletter for a while. They were the ones who presented the marketing info. To be sure they were definately slanted against the majors, but if even half of their data were correct, filesharing benefited independant artists.
_____________________________
Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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RE: What Most CCM is Lacking - 10/10/2008 8:05:12 AM
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rgod
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
ORIGINAL: rgod
Wow -- this is interesting about the indie sales. Where do you get your marketing surveys? (Just curious ...) As an indie myself, I have gotten a lot of stuff from Diskmakers, CD Baby, etc. and a half dozen other companies that cater to indie artists, and even subscribed to an indie newsletter for a while. They were the ones who presented the marketing info. To be sure they were definately slanted against the majors, but if even half of their data were correct, filesharing benefited independant artists.
Thanks!
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RE: What Most CCM is Lacking - 10/25/2008 9:21:19 AM
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humbleinspirit
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This week I purchased Bethany Dillions "So Far, The Accoustic Sessions". It is much more in line with the kind of music that I enjoy. I wish that more CD's would be released in this genre.
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RE: What Most CCM is Lacking - 10/25/2008 10:54:14 AM
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freakofnature
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It just appears that the Christian music industry can not win with it's "fan base" It is either too "Jesus in my Girlfriend" or too many "JPM's" Do you all realize that we have complaints about both sides of that fence in this thread. I can not for the life of me figure out what it is you people want???? I am sure the industry will continue whether or not you find it appealing or not! I don't think it is as bad as some of you make it out to be. The free market has a way to determine who stays and who goes, and that is the way it is. Newsboys are still doin' it because people still look for their albums, whether or not you like the Newsboys or think that there is something wrong with them talent wise is a moot point. Steven Curtis Chapman, for as much as I do not appreciate his music, he still sells thousands of tix to shows, and enough albums to keep him in the industry???? Can someone explain that. I think I know how to explain it, those that listen to the likes of Steve Curtis Chapman and Newsboys and Pillar and "xxx" Christian band obviously just don't have any discernable musical taste and you negative speakers are just far superior in musical taste than those of having less perceivable artistic measurement.
JUST my H/O.
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RE: What Most CCM is Lacking - 10/25/2008 11:01:28 AM
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humbleinspirit
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My argument isn't necessarily about content, it is about genre instead. Produce good quality music, not monolithic/homogeneous stuff that Nashville puts out now.
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RE: What Most CCM is Lacking - 10/25/2008 6:26:01 PM
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IMA_CHRISTIAN
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CCM music, seems to be mostly pop/bubblegum vanilla bland type music. theres nothing inspiring.
on the other hand this CCM praise band that is too hard rock sound like the Barlow Girls is TOO HARSH and too loud and reminds me of music from the world, which i didn't really like, like the Rolling Stones, or Stryper, or some other hellish music.
some of it sounds ok like In Christ Alone which i really enjoy.
I guess I didn't like that sound in the world, and i dont liike it here either! just coz it has some Jesus words in it, does not make me like it.
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RE: What Most CCM is Lacking - 10/25/2008 7:20:53 PM
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iluvatar
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quote:
ORIGINAL: IMA_CHRISTIAN
on the other hand this CCM praise band that is too hard rock sound like the Barlow Girls is TOO HARSH and too loud and reminds me of music from the world, which i didn't really like, like the Rolling Stones, or Stryper, or some other hellish music.
How can anything remind you of both Stryper and the Rolling Stones?
And what does music "from the world" sound like?
-Dan.
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Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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RE: What Most CCM is Lacking - 10/25/2008 7:55:34 PM
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rgod
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I was thinking about this a bit more ... I wonder if it isn't so much that CCM should stop being what it is - which is a more pop-flavored sound - but that instead we just need to add more categories - more variety under different umbrellas? I like pop music and some CCM, but there is so much more to music than pop.
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RE: What Most CCM is Lacking - 10/25/2008 8:23:09 PM
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IMA_CHRISTIAN
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quote:
ORIGINAL: iluvatar
quote:
ORIGINAL: IMA_CHRISTIAN
on the other hand this CCM praise band that is too hard rock sound like the Barlow Girls is TOO HARSH and too loud and reminds me of music from the world, which i didn't really like, like the Rolling Stones, or Stryper, or some other hellish music.
How can anything remind you of both Stryper and the Rolling Stones?
And what does music "from the world" sound like?
-Dan.
well i was trying to mix Rock with Metal. Barlow Girls would be rock like rolling Stones.
music from "the world" is that which i used to listen to before becoming saved. thers a difference. when my ear heard it, then i knew what it reminded me of.. Now i know this is a totally subjective thing,, thats all i can explain it.
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RE: What Most CCM is Lacking - 10/25/2008 11:06:54 PM
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humbleinspirit
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I do not think that there is any compression to The Rolling Stones and Barlow Girls.
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RE: What Most CCM is Lacking - 10/26/2008 8:37:25 AM
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IMA_CHRISTIAN
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quote:
ORIGINAL: humbleinspirit
I do not think that there is any compression to The Rolling Stones and Barlow Girls.
they are both hard rock/rock and roll.
what would you compare them to in a secular music band?
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RE: What Most CCM is Lacking - 10/26/2008 1:20:39 PM
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humbleinspirit
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quote:
ORIGINAL: IMA_CHRISTIAN
quote:
ORIGINAL: humbleinspirit
I do not think that there is any compression to The Rolling Stones and Barlow Girls.
they are both hard rock/rock and roll.
what would you compare them to in a secular music band?
The Rolling Stones are this hugely popular Rock band for over the past 40 years, and Barlow Girl is who?
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The perfect CCM song is the one that keeps repeating the name Jesus over and over and over and over...... 
