RE: Withdrawing medical treatment from a terminally ill person who is about to die
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RE: Withdrawing medical treatment from a terminally ill... - 8/25/2008 12:00:55 AM
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PaleHawkWoman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
I think in regard to suffering we need to determine 'whose suffering'.
I have watched as my family members have made decisions for my elderly aunt who still (at 93) has more brain power than many of us. Their concern re: suffering has been their own suffering. In other words, they placed her in an assisted living facility after she had TIA's and fell several times. She was totally opposed, wore a lifeline, and wanted to remain in her own apartment. She knew she could fall again. She knew that she might die on the floor of her apartment. That was OK with her. But NOT with them. Their concern was about them. I voiced my opinion to let my aunt choose how she wanted to live (or die). They could not abide her choice.
Due to the pressure they put on her, she moved and gave them POA. She has been miserable in her living environment ever since.
It is the same with medical treatment such as chemo. There can be real confusion between whose suffering we are dealing with---the living or the dying. I think the dying, if able, should make the choice as we should support them.
She can regain control of her life and affairs should she choose to do so. Personally, I would NEVER think it was okay to nag an elderly relative of sound mind to do anything that was against their will. In my family, said elderly relative would probably take a stick and beat me if I tried to do something that disrespectful.
Aging, fragility, and death are a fact of life. People are sooo squeamish when reminded of their own mortality. People should be able to die at home attended by their loved family and other loved ones. Honoring one's elders means at all times and in all circumstances.
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RE: Withdrawing medical treatment from a terminally ill... - 8/25/2008 8:21:31 AM
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drmark
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quote:
quote:
Is experiencing pain and suffering always a "burden"?
I don't understand. At all. I don't want my loved ones to be in pain, and I don't want extreme pain. Sometimes it's not about what we want - it's about what God wants. We should be Articulating a Distinctly Christian Approach to Suffering.
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Withdrawing medical treatment from a terminally ill... - 8/25/2008 8:27:01 AM
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DaveW
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I have looked at it like this: NOT doing everything possible to sustain someone's life is morally equivalent to placing a gun to their head and pulling the trigger.quote:
...the problem is that.... at some point you run into "when is the soul gone."
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Is the soul gone, when there is brain death? We have no way of knowing that information.
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RE: Withdrawing medical treatment from a terminally ill... - 8/25/2008 8:32:29 AM
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drmark
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quote:
drmark, I don't think the net burden/net benefit comment is related to financial issues. My dear sister died earlier this year. The doctors could have started another round of chemo - but that would have killed her for sure and maybe just prolong the pain/suffering she was in. Therefore, the burden of continued treatment would not have given her a net benefit of prolonged good health. It would have simply made her days more miserable and painful. Financial issues are only one of the categories used by moral relativists to determine "burden/benefit" ratios. I used it as an extreme example for illustration, although I guarantee you that socialized medicine will make financial issues quite commonplace if we let that kind of impersonal healthcare system develop here as it has in Europe.
quote:
I would like to use the following definition:
A treatment that sustains or prolongs the operation of vital bodily functions that are incapable of independent operation or any kind of medicine that is used to save a person's life. So does your definition include IV fluids and artificial nutrition as "medical treatment", cih? How would a physician know if "any kind of medication" would save a person's life unless it is tried? No drug is 100% effective. These are difficult issues, aren't they.
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Withdrawing medical treatment from a terminally ill... - 8/25/2008 10:20:26 AM
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PastorPatricia
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Sit at my mother's bedside as she died, she was 92 years old, had had many strokes, was in a wheelchair, no bowel or bladder control and her speech was grabbled and very hard to understand. She told the nursing home staff that she was not going to eat or drink anymore and had a DNR order. My sister, brother and I went in every meal time the last three weeks and tried to encourage her to eat or at lest drink. We allowed them to give her pain meds but nothing else. The last week we maintained a 24 hour watch. She slowly went downhill and into a coma and died comfortably. In this situation she made the decision and we honoured it. I was with her at the end and could feel God's presence in the room. We did not kill her, we did all we could for her and we have no guilt about her death. My husband and I have DNR orders and our children know our wishes. Allowing someone, to go to God when they are suffering is totally different than causing their death. Been there, done that and while I grieve her death I feel we did the right thing for her.
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RE: Withdrawing medical treatment from a terminally ill... - 8/25/2008 11:06:21 AM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
quote:
Is experiencing pain and suffering always a "burden"
I don't understand. At all. I don't want my loved ones to be in pain, and I don't want extreme pain. Sometimes it's not about what we want - it's about what God wants. We should be Articulating a Distinctly Christian Approach to Suffering.
The article you recommend is about euthanasia, Mark, not about alleviating pain while living. I am sure you are not against alleviating pain for the living -- right?
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Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: Withdrawing medical treatment from a terminally ill... - 8/25/2008 11:08:28 AM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
I have looked at it like this: NOT doing everything possible to sustain someone's life is morally equivalent to placing a gun to their head and pulling the trigger.quote:
...the problem is that.... at some point you run into "when is the soul gone."
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Is the soul gone, when there is brain death? We have no way of knowing that information.
Dave, do you intend that allowing one who is going to die to go home to finish their life, when an alternative is to keep them alive on a machine in a hospital, is wrong? Probably not, but I am asking.
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: Withdrawing medical treatment from a terminally ill... - 8/25/2008 11:12:41 AM
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solo_soprano22
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
I have looked at it like this: NOT doing everything possible to sustain someone's life is morally equivalent to placing a gun to their head and pulling the trigger.quote:
...the problem is that.... at some point you run into "when is the soul gone."
------------------------------------------------
Is the soul gone, when there is brain death? We have no way of knowing that information.
But there is a difference between killing and letting die.
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RE: Withdrawing medical treatment from a terminally ill... - 8/25/2008 11:31:24 AM
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drmark
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quote:
The article you recommend is about euthanasia, Mark, not about alleviating pain while living. I am sure you are not against alleviating pain for the living -- right? Well, that's not the way I'm reading the article, Abiyah. Indeed, euthanasia is the logical extreme approach to alleviating pain when unbiblical perspectives on suffering take precedence over understanding G-d's Will and Sovereignty. If I were convinced that a particular patient was glorifying G-d through her/his pain and suffering, would it be right for me to try to eliminate that source of His glory? It seems to me a fine line between avoiding pain at any cost and accepting G-d's Will for developing spiritual maturity through suffering. It's not my right as a physician to make that choice for someone else!
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Withdrawing medical treatment from a terminally ill... - 8/25/2008 11:32:47 AM
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drmark
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quote:
But there is a difference between killing and letting die. In what way, s_s? Is not the end result the same?
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Withdrawing medical treatment from a terminally ill... - 8/25/2008 11:37:37 AM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
If I were convinced that a particular patient was glorifying G-d through her/his pain and suffering, would it be right for me to try to eliminate that source of His glory? It seems to me a fine line between avoiding pain at any cost and accepting G-d's Will for developing spiritual maturity through suffering. It's not my right as a physician to make that choice for someone else!
Okay. I understand that is your opinion, but when I come to the end of my life, I will seek out a doctor who will recognize that I am the one to make such a decision and that s/he is not capable of determining G-d's will for me.
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: Withdrawing medical treatment from a terminally ill... - 8/25/2008 11:39:19 AM
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DaveW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshugaquote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
I have looked at it like this: NOT doing everything possible to sustain someone's life is morally equivalent to placing a gun to their head and pulling the trigger.quote:
...the problem is that.... at some point you run into "when is the soul gone."
------------------------------------------------
Is the soul gone, when there is brain death? We have no way of knowing that information. Dave, do you intend that allowing one who is going to die to go home to finish their life, when an alternative is to keep them alive on a machine in a hospital, is wrong? Probably not, but I am asking. I do. I see it the same as murder. quote:
ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22
But there is a difference between killing and letting die. Since in both cases the person ends up dead, I see little difference.
This ties in to the abortion debate. I realize in this case it may be someone's own decision unlike an unborn baby who cannot make that decision, but it is still someone else deciding to end your life. That is just plain wrong.
_____________________________
Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
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RE: Withdrawing medical treatment from a terminally ill... - 8/25/2008 11:43:37 AM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Abiyah
Dave, do you intend that allowing one who is going to die to go home to finish their life, when an alternative is to keep them alive on a machine in a hospital, is wrong? Probably not, but I am asking.
quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
I do. I see it the same as murder. . . . This ties in to the abortion debate. I realize in this case it may be someone's own decision unlike an unborn baby who cannot make that decision, but it is still someone else deciding to end your life. That is just plain wrong.
Okay. I understand that is your opinion.
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: Withdrawing medical treatment from a terminally ill... - 8/25/2008 11:46:58 AM
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drmark
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quote:
I do. I see it the same as murder. And if God is using that patient's terminal disease to accomplish His Sovereign Will, then you would be sinning by interfering with her/his death! it's not quite as simple as your "ethical" position suggests, DaveW.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Withdrawing medical treatment from a terminally ill... - 8/25/2008 11:47:32 AM
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Qtman
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I for one have already made that decision and it is in writing. When my time comes and it is determined there is no chance for survuval, my family is to get a second opinion. If that opinion confirms the first diagnosis I am NOT to be kept alive by machines.
I too, sat by my mother's side as she died. She had cancer in the liver. She was told Chemo would probably add no more than 6 months to her life. She would have gone through this if we had asked her to. However, I and my brother told her it was a decision she would have to make and we would support her either way. After reading about all the side effect of Chemo she chose not to go through it. The last two weeks of her life she was in the hospital. Pain medications was administered to keep her as comfortable as possible. After her decision to not have Chemo she only lived for 2 months but she died peacefully in her sleep. I have no regrets that she chose to not prolong her suffering. I expect if she could she would give us a hug and say thank you.
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RE: Withdrawing medical treatment from a terminally ill... - 8/25/2008 11:51:12 AM
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benelchi
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quote:
Sure, Brother James. This is another way to disguise moral relativism.
This is really an unfair attack on bioethics from a Christian perspective. Because of the advances in medicine over the last century, we are now able to keep people "alive" who would have never survived only a few decades ago. We can even keep a body "living" when a person is clinically dead i.e. no brain activity. Because of advances in technology, we are confronted with new questions on the ethical use of that technologies. These tough questions arise when we must decide how to define questions like exactly what "heroic" treatment is and who gets to decide when a treatment is heroic? When is "heroic" treatment unlikely to have any benefit? Should "heroic" be defined differently for a 20 year old than it is for a 90 year old? etc...? These are tough questions and, when we get into all of the details, the answers are not easy. Seeking answers to these questions does not require a "moral relativistic" viewpoint although a "Moral relativistic" viewpoint will more than likely result in very different answers.
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RE: Withdrawing medical treatment from a terminally ill... - 8/25/2008 11:51:47 AM
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drmark
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quote:
Okay. I understand that is your opinion, but when I come to the end of my life, I will seek out a doctor who will recognize that I am the one to make such a decision and that s/he is not capable of determining G-d's will for me. That's a noble sentiment, Abiyah. Unfortunately, many patients at the end of their life have little control over who their physician is or what s/he may believe about G-d!
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Withdrawing medical treatment from a terminally ill... - 8/25/2008 11:52:00 AM
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stellaluna
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Just to be clear Dave...if you were in an accident and had no brain activity, you would want your family to keep your body on life support indefinitely, despite the financial and emotional toll? And if it was your wife was in an accident and no brain activity, you would keep her on life support indefinitely, despite the financial and emotional toll?
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RE: Withdrawing medical treatment from a terminally ill... - 8/25/2008 11:54:04 AM
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drmark
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quote:
This is really an unfair attack on bioethics from a Christian perspective. So what's unfair since you also agree that "a "Moral relativistic" viewpoint will more than likely result in very different answers."
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RE: Withdrawing medical treatment from a terminally ill... - 8/25/2008 12:01:33 PM
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solo_soprano22
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
But there is a difference between killing and letting die. In what way, s_s? Is not the end result the same?
I think that too, is subjective.
Is actively killing someone by shooting them in the head the same as pulling the plug on someone who's braindead/a vegetable, has been on a ventilator for 80 years, and is artificially fed and hydrated (letting die)?
Maybe the same thing to some; to me, you're keeping someone's shell alive for some reason in the latter scenario (they're gone already). In the first, you killed/murdered them.
But the end result just reminds me of consequential ethics...which I don't like, and I think it's the wrong system for a Christian. If you want to follow that, that's fine. We're all different. Yes, the end result is bodily death; my problem is that some of these people were long gone and we earthly humans probably still wanted a piece of "them" to hold on to. IMO, there are plenty of people who are gone, and other people are keeping biology functioning by artificial means when the person's not there. They've passed away. I guess to some, everyone in the world could die, then all be put on something that breathes for us and feeds/hydrates us...then we'll all "live" on. (Yes, I understand that's not feasible.)
But killing and letting die are different things, in the way I speak of it (and is subject to personal opinion). At some point people die; we misuse technology sometimes to prolong keeping someone's body alive when their time has passed, and THEY have passed. Misusing technology isn't some new thing, although the same technology can be life-saving.
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RE: Withdrawing medical treatment from a terminally ill... - 8/25/2008 12:01:52 PM
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benelchi
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
This is really an unfair attack on bioethics from a Christian perspective. So what's unfair since you also agree that "a "Moral relativistic" viewpoint will more than likely result in very different answers."
Because the original quote didn't give the answer, but only asked the questions. Here is the other half of what I said "Seeking answers to these questions does not require a "moral relativistic" viewpoint."
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RE: Withdrawing medical treatment from a terminally ill... - 8/25/2008 12:05:38 PM
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DaveW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stellaluna
Just to be clear Dave...if you were in an accident and had no brain activity, you would want your family to keep your body on life support indefinitely, despite the financial and emotional toll? And if it was your wife was in an accident and no brain activity, you would keep her on life support indefinitely, despite the financial and emotional toll? God forbid that this should happen to either of us.
My wife and I do not agree on this. If I were the one comotose, she would probably pull the plug. IMO she would have to answer to God for killing me.
If it were reveresed I would keep her alive as long as I possibly could. If I were to hit a big lotto jackpot it just might sustain her for a century or 2. Anything less than that I would consider to be murder.
_____________________________
Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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RE: Withdrawing medical treatment from a terminally ill... - 8/25/2008 12:14:10 PM
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drmark
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quote:
Because the original quote didn't give the answer, but only asked the questions. Here is the other half of what I said "Seeking answers to these questions does not require a "moral relativistic" viewpoint." My original answer was in response to a request for better understanding of the concept "if the proposed treatment carries a net burden than a net benefit". How would you define "burden" and "benefit" using moral absolutes (Christian bioethics)?
quote:
My wife and I do not agree on this. If I were the one comotose, she would probably pull the plug. IMO she would have to answer to God for killing me.
If it were reveresed I would keep her alive as long as I possibly could. If I were to hit a big lotto jackpot it just might sustain her for a century or 2. Anything less than that I would consider to be murder. Dave, is this scenario for real?! If you and your wife totally disagree, why would you not honor the other spouse's wish in order to maintain respect for their position?
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Withdrawing medical treatment from a terminally ill... - 8/25/2008 12:28:54 PM
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benelchi
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quote:
My original answer was in response to a request for better understanding of the concept "if the proposed treatment carries a net burden than a net benefit". How would you define "burden" and "benefit" using moral absolutes (Christian bioethics)?
The question would be how much technology was being used to prevent an inevitable death verses being used to save a life. At the extreme a person who is completely brain dead but whose body is being kept alive by a full life support system can place tremendous emotional and financial burdens on the surviving family. Because I would say that such a person is already "dead" and, if saved, with our Lord, there is no moral relativistic reason to keep this person's body alive. If God is going to miraculously raise this person from the dead, he doesn't need our help to do it.
On the other extreme, those who believe that a family, doctor, or state should be able to make the decision to end the life of a family member who is conscious and expressing a desire for "heroic" treatment (or even in the very extreme a desire to not have their life intentionally ended), are clearly coming from a moral relativistic perspective.
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RE: Withdrawing medical treatment from a terminally ill... - 8/25/2008 12:33:33 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
Okay. I understand that is your opinion, but when I come to the end of my life, I will seek out a doctor who will recognize that I am the one to make such a decision and that s/he is not capable of determining G-d's will for me. That's a noble sentiment, Abiyah. Unfortunately, many patients at the end of their life have little control over who their physician is or what s/he may believe about G-d!
Noble? Well you're sweet to even suggest such a thing. But yes, I have faced that; regardless, to me it is my life, my decision -- simple as that.
While I may not be very good at facing my illness, I have faced it enough to let my family know my wishes about my end. I have a great husband and children, all of whom have faced the (husband) death of his spouse and (children) death of a parent. They would be a family of wolves against any doctor who tried to take over and make such determiniations for me. If I haven't already found the right doctor, they would do their best for me.
I do see that I need to get this in writing, in order to support them in their decisions. That is one part of this I have put off.
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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