RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/30/2008 8:07:20 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Qtman
Whatever John. I don't know if you believe babies go to heaven or not and frankly I don't care. You believe what you want. All I said was I do believe it. So don't give a yes or no answer to something you don't know anything about. I'm out of here again. Really don't know why I came back in the first place.
As I have always stated.... All is said is what I believe...
Again...
I have always maintained it's in God's hands, as is the salvation of anyone regardless of age...
So I didn't give a yes or no... Please don't attribute something to me that I clearly don't say...
I don't say they all go to heaven or hell, I say it's in God's hands....
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/30/2008 8:18:22 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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It was asked to show where a baby has sinned...
I am asking how the flood wasn't a judgment... Was there salvation outside the ark?
As for Joshua's actions in Jericho if infants are perfect what granted Joshua the right to murder them?
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/30/2008 8:59:29 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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And I have to add... I question the idea of automatic salvation for infants in that we are told to be fruitful and multiply yet it would seem it would be better to not and die as young as possible...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 10/1/2008 10:47:39 AM
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mcleod
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quote:
If that's truly the case one should rejoice when a child dies if one believes they are automatically saved... Abortion clinics are not murdering 3500 unborn children daily they are saving them from possible eternal damnation... Are the collective churches of the nation saving that many people daily? I doubt it given the rate of those who come forward only to turn away after the initial excitement wares off..
This may sound cruel but I do rejoice. For who knows they could have been raised in a home where. God doesn't even exist in the mouth of the parents.
quote:
People are asked for scripture since for the most part they toss out their normal view of salvation and insert something else for babies... That is the bases for asking for scripture...
This is not what I have done.
For it is a belief (faith) to have eternal life. Which a little child or infant can have, once in the presence of the Almighty.
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 10/1/2008 10:55:07 AM
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raivyne
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quote:
Babies are not liken to Adam and not in the Garden.... There is no scripture that speaks of babies being born prefect, or even close... In order to claim they are perfect you must remove them from mankind and later insert them back in regards to God's grace...
I'm still not certain on this subject (and I may never be!), but isn't it in the bible somewhere that we are born into sin because of the sin Adam committed? Or is that just something I've inferred from my own limited understandings?
_____________________________
God grades on the cross – not on a curve
Good – God = 0
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 10/1/2008 12:19:42 PM
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mcleod
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Look in Romans 5 beginning in verse 12. This may help you with your question.
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 10/1/2008 3:35:30 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mcleod
This may sound cruel but I do rejoice. For who knows they could have been raised in a home where. God doesn't even exist in the mouth of the parents.
So it is better to rejoice in their death as opposed to having faith in Christ to later save them?
And since it's clear God determines our days isn't this simply a form of predestination? How does that reconcile with the idea He's not to be respecter of persons?
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 10/1/2008 3:40:41 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: raivyne
quote:
Babies are not liken to Adam and not in the Garden.... There is no scripture that speaks of babies being born prefect, or even close... In order to claim they are perfect you must remove them from mankind and later insert them back in regards to God's grace...
I'm still not certain on this subject (and I may never be!), but isn't it in the bible somewhere that we are born into sin because of the sin Adam committed? Or is that just something I've inferred from my own limited understandings?
The bible speaks of two births... One from the womb, and one that is Spiritual in nature... It would seem that some here believe man is born of both from the womb, yet that defies Scripture... Man is born spiritual dead.... Mankind is fallen and get out of the Garden... Babies are not born into a Adam like state walking and talking with God in the Garden...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 10/2/2008 11:39:21 AM
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mcleod
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quote:
So it is better to rejoice in their death as opposed to having faith in Christ to later save them?
Here we go again....did you have read or did you speed through my written statement to that effect on how my thoughts were on that?
quote:
And since it's clear God determines our days isn't this simply a form of predestination? How does that reconcile with the idea He's not to be respecter of persons?
I need a verse on that please where God has detemine your and my days.
quote:
The bible speaks of two births... One from the womb, and one that is Spiritual in nature... It would seem that some here believe man is born of both from the womb, yet that defies Scripture... Man is born spiritual dead.... Mankind is fallen and get out of the Garden... Babies are not born into a Adam like state walking and talking with God in the Garden...
Please notice one thing you keep repeating is the word man. So if I want to get really technical like you seem to be. Woman is free from the sin curse? We are talking about children who can't understand what the requirements are to have fellowship or eternal life. Which I getting some thought maybe we as humans (adults) can't understand the simplicty of it all.
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 10/2/2008 12:04:03 PM
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Qtman
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Everyone that posts here has their own beliefs. I have mine and they are not going to be changed. I don't think anyone else is going to change their beliefs either and I am not rrying to change anyone. But I do have a few questions. If you would like to respond and answer the questions here that's o.k. but I do ask you to confine your post to the questions. Otherwise you can PM me if you do not wish to join the discussion here.
QUESTIONS:
There are people that believe babies are the direct result of the physical mating between a male and female, THere are those that believe God creates each baby in the womb. There are others that believe they are created by design said design being created by God. I can make a good argument for all three. But lets skip the Where to babies come from question.
I assume we all agree the babies Soul comes from God.
1. Where did God get the soul from?
a. Does He have a warehouse full of souls and He just goes in and picks one?
b. Does He create a separate and individual soul for that particular baby?
c. When does He give that baby it's soul?
d. If God creates the soul does He create one that is already stained with sin?
I am 57 years old and have been in church since my birth. My dad was a preacher. I have been around Bible study longer than I can remember actively studying the Bible for wel over 40 years myself. I can find not one instance where God created anything that He did not step back look at it and declare it "good". Now what happened to it after man got it is another matter. I challenge anyone to show me in scripture where God created anything bad. Sin is of the devil and not of God. God did not create sin. To say a baby is sinful is to say God made it that way and that is not scriptual.
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Remember: God loves you and I'm trying!
~rogasinger4Him
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 10/2/2008 12:29:12 PM
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wintery
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But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 19:14)
Suffer little children...for of such is the kingdom of heaven. Period. No qualifications.
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 10/2/2008 2:52:01 PM
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benelchi
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Qtman
Everyone that posts here has their own beliefs. I have mine and they are not going to be changed. I don't think anyone else is going to change their beliefs either and I am not rrying to change anyone. But I do have a few questions. If you would like to respond and answer the questions here that's o.k. but I do ask you to confine your post to the questions. Otherwise you can PM me if you do not wish to join the discussion here.
QUESTIONS:
There are people that believe babies are the direct result of the physical mating between a male and female, THere are those that believe God creates each baby in the womb. There are others that believe they are created by design said design being created by God. I can make a good argument for all three. But lets skip the Where to babies come from question.
I assume we all agree the babies Soul comes from God.
1. Where did God get the soul from?
a. Does He have a warehouse full of souls and He just goes in and picks one?
b. Does He create a separate and individual soul for that particular baby?
c. When does He give that baby it's soul?
d. If God creates the soul does He create one that is already stained with sin?
I am 57 years old and have been in church since my birth. My dad was a preacher. I have been around Bible study longer than I can remember actively studying the Bible for wel over 40 years myself. I can find not one instance where God created anything that He did not step back look at it and declare it "good". Now what happened to it after man got it is another matter. I challenge anyone to show me in scripture where God created anything bad. Sin is of the devil and not of God. God did not create sin. To say a baby is sinful is to say God made it that way and that is not scriptual.
I think you have pointed out exactly why this question is so very difficult. It is just about as difficult as grasping the infinite details of the Trinity; there are so many things that have to be reconciled.
Did God create an imperfect soul? (as you pointed out)
How does Adam's sin affect every human? (From Romans)
How are children sanctified through their believing parents (1 Corinthians).
What exactly is the innocence of children that Christ describes?
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 10/2/2008 5:57:07 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mcleod
Here we go again....did you have read or did you speed through my written statement to that effect on how my thoughts were on that?
I am just making sure I understand you completely...
quote:
I need a verse on that please where God has detemine your and my days.
Job 14:5
Since his days are determined,and the number of his months is with you, and you have appointed his limits that he cannot pass,
Psalm 139:16
Your eyes saw my unformed substance;in your book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them.
quote:
Please notice one thing you keep repeating is the word man. So if I want to get really technical like you seem to be. Woman is free from the sin curse?
Mankind speaks of everyone...
quote:
We are talking about children who can't understand what the requirements are to have fellowship or eternal life.
The above has nothing to do with the intellectual capabilities of children...
quote:
Which I getting some thought maybe we as humans (adults) can't understand the simplicty of it all.
It's stated in the bible that natural man cannot understand things of the Spirit...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 10/2/2008 6:08:48 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Qtman
1. Where did God get the soul from?
He created them...
quote:
a. Does He have a warehouse full of souls and He just goes in and picks one?
No...
quote:
b. Does He create a separate and individual soul for that particular baby?
Yes...
quote:
c. When does He give that baby it's soul?
Begs the question are you referring to God's view or man's...
quote:
d. If God creates the soul does He create one that is already stained with sin?
If? The soul has to be created by the Creator... Given the fall of man, mankind is condemned... No exceptions... One is either part of mankind, or not... Can't pull groups in and out as it suits us... Mankind is in the same boat regardless of age... In need of a Savior...
quote:
I challenge anyone to show me in scripture where God created anything bad.
Proverbs 16:4 (King James Version)
The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
quote:
To say a baby is sinful is to say God made it that way and that is not scriptual.
A baby is born sinful due to the fall of man... A baby isn't Adam, a created being who walked and talk with God in the Garden...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 10/2/2008 6:09:59 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: wintery
But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 19:14)
Suffer little children...for of such is the kingdom of heaven. Period. No qualifications.
I guess Joshua didn't get the memo...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 10/2/2008 6:38:25 PM
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Qtman
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Well John at least we have found a few things we agree on. Now for the rest.
quote:
c. When does He give that baby it's soul?
Begs the question are you referring to God's view or man's...
Either one you feel comfortable with. I can work with either.
quote:
d. If God creates the soul does He create one that is already stained with sin?
If? The soul has to be created by the Creator... Given the fall of man, mankind is condemned... No exceptions... One is either part of mankind, or not... Can't pull groups in and out as it suits us... Mankind is in the same boat regardless of age... In need of a Savior...
Unless I miscounted you used 52 words in this part of the response and still have not answered the question. Now for the second time. Did God create a soul already sin stained? yes or no john that is all that is required.
quote:
I challenge anyone to show me in scripture where God created anything bad.
Proverbs 16:4 (King James Version)
The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
I have no disagreement with this scripture. THe wicked being refered to is men. God created all men. He did not however create the sin or wickedness.
quote:
To say a baby is sinful is to say God made it that way and that is not scriptual.
A baby is born sinful due to the fall of man... A baby isn't Adam, a created being who walked and talk with God in the Garden...
I never said a baby was Adam not that they walked and talked in the garden with God. I said they were a perfect reenactment of the fall of man. There is a difference. As you have said please do not give me credit for something I did not say. If you believe a baby is born sinful that is fine with me. I still believe a baby is born with a sinless soul created by God and like all mankind falls. I guess this is just where we part ways.
_____________________________
Remember: God loves you and I'm trying!
~rogasinger4Him
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 10/2/2008 7:05:29 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Qtman
Either one you feel comfortable with. I can work with either.
In God view time(when) isn't an issue... What He has decreed is as good as done.... When He so chooses to manifest it is generally what concerns man though that really it doesn't matter in my opinion... My belief is at conception..
quote:
Did God create a soul already sin stained? yes or no john that is all that is required.
You have my answer... If you believe it's simply a yes or no situation that that is your prerogative... What is created is stained by the fall of man from the start...
quote:
I have no disagreement with this scripture. THe wicked being refered to is men. God created all men. He did not however create the sin or wickedness.
The verse speaks to specially the wicked(not to the fact God created all men) and for a purpose...
Proverbs 16:4 (King James Version)
The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
quote:
I never said a baby was Adam not that they walked and talked in the garden with God.I said they were a perfect reenactment of the fall of man. There is a difference.
I don't agree... To say they are perfect reenactment of the fall places them in the scenario of where the fall happened in my opinion.
quote:
If you believe a baby is born sinful that is fine with me. I still believe a baby is born with a sinless soul created by God and like all mankind falls. I guess this is just where we part ways.
Yup...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 10/2/2008 7:33:33 PM
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raivyne
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Qtman
quote:
I challenge anyone to show me in scripture where God created anything bad.
quote:
Proverbs 16:4 (King James Version)
The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
I have no disagreement with this scripture. THe wicked being refered to is men. God created all men. He did not however create the sin or wickedness.
Just curious on your thoughts here. If God didn't create sin and wickedness who did? I thought God was the creator of ALL things.
_____________________________
God grades on the cross – not on a curve
Good – God = 0
In the dark? Follow the Son!
The Power of a Simple Gift! samaritanspurse.org
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 10/2/2008 7:54:54 PM
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disciplelife
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quote:
ORIGINAL: raivyne
quote:
ORIGINAL: Qtman
quote:
I challenge anyone to show me in scripture where God created anything bad.
quote:
Proverbs 16:4 (King James Version)
The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
I have no disagreement with this scripture. THe wicked being refered to is men. God created all men. He did not however create the sin or wickedness.
Just curious on your thoughts here. If God didn't create sin and wickedness who did? I thought God was the creator of ALL things.
Indeed! It's call free will, and, in crisp phrases, God’s Word depicts the ways God gives humans enough rope to hang themselves.
_____________________________
But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. (James 1:22)
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 10/2/2008 8:44:53 PM
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Qtman
Posts: 10089
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quote:
ORIGINAL: raivyne
quote:
ORIGINAL: Qtman
quote:
I challenge anyone to show me in scripture where God created anything bad.
quote:
Proverbs 16:4 (King James Version)
The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
I have no disagreement with this scripture. THe wicked being refered to is men. God created all men. He did not however create the sin or wickedness.
Just curious on your thoughts here. If God didn't create sin and wickedness who did? I thought God was the creator of ALL things.
Actually I believe sin is a product of satan. God hates sin so why would he create it.
_____________________________
Remember: God loves you and I'm trying!
~rogasinger4Him
Body Piercings
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 10/2/2008 9:14:25 PM
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wintery
Posts: 1809
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Qtman
1. Where did God get the soul from?
a. Does He have a warehouse full of souls and He just goes in and picks one?
No. The verse in Jeremiah which has been used to create a teaching of the pre-existence of the soul---"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations."
(Jeremiah 1:5)---does not indicate a pre-existence of the soul but the foreknowledge of God.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Qtman
b. Does He create a separate and individual soul for that particular baby?
Yes. Isaiah 43:7 indicates that God created each one of us--everyone who is called by my name, whom I created for my glory, whom I formed and made."
(Isaiah 43:7)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Qtman
c. When does He give that baby it's soul?
I again take Jeremiah 1:5 that God forms each one in the womb.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Qtman
d. If God creates the soul does He create one that is already stained with sin?
I think we have good indication that each soul is responsible for itself.
The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.
(Deuteronomy 24:16)
And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.
(John 9:2-3)
Sorry I overlooked the instructions to answer the questions earlier.
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 10/2/2008 9:14:42 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Qtman
You are correct to a certain degree. God created an angel named lucifer. Lucifer fell and rebelled against God and became known as satan. So yes in a way God created satan. But when first created lucifer was a good and trusted angel. As far as the serpent is concerned I believe it either was or was controled by satan. Satan had was already a fallen angel.
Given God's actions and control of Satan regarding Job why would one assume Satan was doing as he pleased in the Garden?
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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I have respect for your opinion even if I see a few things differently. I hope I don't come off as otherwise.