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ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivi

If my use of language offends you, you have my most sincere apologies for your offense. However, in this instance I will stand by what I said... because I meant it.

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As for your comment about someone not understanding the "full scope" of Biblical teaching on a subject, your argument is predicated on the idea that if you know enough Scripture you are guaranteed to have good doctrine. As such, your presupposition is not true. I can memorize all four Gospels without believing that is God, that He ever existed, or that the Bible is true. This is why I feel quite safe saying that the doctrine of Sola Scriptura can be an idol unto itself. We have to be flexible enough that if something happens in the real world that challenges our doctrine (especially if it is something that the Bible doesn't condemn), we can alter our doctrine. If that is the limit of your objection to what I said, then I doubt very much that we will enjoy this conversation for very long.

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ORIGINAL: lightshineon

Today we visited a new church. We sit behind a young man doing the chiken walk, and jerks during praise and worship. I prayed "oh dear Lord why did I pick here to sit." My husband does not do freaky deaky. Come to find out he was mentally challenged, my husband said " I am not offended he was just loving Jesus his way." The young man came to me and said " I did not hug you" So he hugged me. His dad was trying to make him behave. My point, it was ok for this young man , but, remember he is challenged so God I am sure recieved it. My husband would have been upset if someone of sound mind was doing these things.

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I don't think you are willing to consider what I am trying to tell you.

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It is now clear that the Benny Hinn, will be in Kampala in May 2007. Although many people in the West know the lies of this enemy of Christ , many saints in Africa do not know that Benny Hinn is a spiritual fraud .

This is due to the fact that many saints lack access to information technology particularly the internet, and secondly the prosperity preachers in Uganda like Robert Kayanja, the TBN super boy , Joseph Sserwadda , Tom Sembera , Jamada Kikomeko, Jackson Senyonga , Irene Manjeri , and Imelda Kula Namutebi among others have assisted the devil to trap the saints of the Lord Jesus Christ into the prosperity gospel of antichrist.

This has led many saints to loose their watch and discerning guard and hence be trapped by doctrines of devils such as dominionist theology and WORD FAITH(name it claim it ) sick gospel. This is a warning to the true saints of the lord Jesus Christ to SHUN Benny Hinn’s May Kampala Crusades. The Lord Jesus Christ is going to expose the nudity and deception of the Uganda so called born again church on Benny Hinn’s visit , the apostasy , spiritual fornication and political Christianity is going to be exposed on that day.

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Let Ian Murray's excellent biography of Edwards lay to rest any facile attempt to tie modern "pentecostalism' to Edwards:

"There were some orthodox Christians in New England who believed that a glorious revival in the latter days 'would partly consist in restoring those extraordinary gifts of the Spirit'. For Edwards, that belief was erroneous and dangerous, and its existence, in his view, was partly responsible for the readiness of some to treat 'impulses' as God-given. He saw it as dangerous because a wish for the restoration extraordinary gifts suggested a wrong view of what are indeed the great and abiding influences of the Spirit in the Church. The extraordinary gifts had no necessary connection with the power of godliness; indeed, he asserts, a man might have them and 'go to hell'. The glorious work of the Spirit is that in which he imparts regenerating and sanctifying grace to the soul". {Murray, p. 242, 243}.
__________________

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Interesting how in no time there are now people still saying that the Lakeland anointing is coming to their meetings.

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ORIGINAL: rlj

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Interesting how in no time there are now people still saying that the Lakeland anointing is coming to their meetings.

Would that be the lust and divorce anointing? Perhaps the ignore the bible when declaring someone a leader anointing? Which anointing exactly are they talking about?

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The 'Fool them and take their money' anointing?

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The Anti-Counterfeiting Group (ACG) is encouraging consumers to be on the look out for fake drink - amid fears unscrupulous dealers are already flooding the market.

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COUNTERFEITS

There is a story told of some Germans who had received
gold medals from the late Kaiser for their great scientific
labors; but when he plunged the world into war, they decided
to give up the honors. They turned the medals over to an
organization to be used to fight against the totalitarianism
of the German regime.

When it was attempted to turn the beautiful medals into cash,
it was discovered that they were made of base metal, lightly
covered over with gold. It is unutterable sad that men have
used the gospel as a gilt to cover over the base teachings of
apostasy.

It is a counterfeit when men present mere ritual religion as
the means of saving souls instead of demanding simple
faith in Christ.

It is a counterfeit when men think that individuals can be
set apart by ceremonies to be the channels for imparting
spiritual gifts.

No man can quicken a soul. No man can have a monopoly,
or be a part of a monopoly, for quickening souls or bringing
them into the true church.

Whenever ritual religion is taught, or whenever it is claimed
that a special group of men have been endowed with divine
privileges, we have a reversion to the first lie of Satan, who
came to Eve with a denial of the divine revelation and its
finality.

If God has appointed any special group of men and given
them the monopoly of access to God, then let us accept
them at once. But if God has not appointed any such
group of men, then the system and the idea is a lie of the
Devil.

We may overlay it with a gold surface and print on the
medal whatever we desire, but it is still false in the core.
Each Christian must solemnly weigh these truths and
realize that he is responsible before God for his attitude
toward the truth.

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NO COMPROMISE --- NO MODERATION

In the first copy of the LIBERATOR, William Lloyd Garrison
set forth the attitude that all right thinking men should take
against slavery. He did it in stern language. There are times
when you have no right to think or speak or feel moderately.
You shall not give a moderate warning to a neighbor that his
house is on fire, nor moderately snatch your wife from the
hands of ruffians. You shall be as harsh as truth and as
uncompromising as justice. You shall not equivocate. You
shall not excuse. You shall lnot draw back. And you shall
be heard. We must stand up for the right which we know
to be right and for the truth which we know to be true.

I feel more strongly than I can say that it is my duty to stand
and proclaim that gospel of Jesus Christ and to warn people
that much which is being preached from pulpits is not the
gospel.

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I tremble when I read in the Scriptures that in the last days Satan is going to come right into the church posing as an angel of light. He’s going to take ministers who, at one time, had the touch of God, and he’s going to transform them into angels of light to become his tool of deception. That’s frightening. It causes me to fall on my face before God for such false, deceitful workers transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. No marvel, for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore, it’s no great thing if ministers also are transformed as the ministers of righteousness whose end shall be according to their works.

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I feel that such bitter and haughty declarations as I've read here, are offensive to those who've been truly blessed by some of these so-called counterfeit moves.
Who are you to deny this? I know people who've been to Lakeland and came back greatly encouraged and refreshed in spirit. I know others who came away disappointed and questioning. God knows. Some things are obviously not God but throwing out the baby with the bathwater is just dumb.

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My experience tells me that most "revival" bashing is done by the same folks who bash anything of any charismatic nature. A little heart searching might be appropriate for them.

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ORIGINAL: GHitch

All this "cock sure of ones own ideas" displayed here in this abundance of supposed 'counterfeit' revival bashing is unchristian imo.
It is unworthy of a true servant.

Was David a counterfeit? Did he ever sin?
Peter? Cursing in denying Christ?
Yourselves?

I can't agree with all that I see or hear reported from Lakeland or anywhere else - probably including your own churches if i could see them - so?
That does not mean it's all counterfeit.

I feel that such bitter and haughty declarations as I've read here, are offensive to those who've been truly blessed by some of these so-called counterfeit moves.
Who are you to deny this? I know people who've been to Lakeland and came back greatly encouraged and refreshed in spirit. I know others who came away disappointed and questioning. God knows. Some things are obviously not God but throwing out the baby with the bathwater is just dumb.

Highly self-assured anti-'counterfeiters' only disgrace the grace of Christ imo.
Reasoned discussion and difference of opinion is fine, but this is not such.

Do you have the Lambs book of life in your pocket?
Do you really know what is and isn't counterfeit in all these cases?
Are you correct to be so finely convinced that you know what God will or will not do?

I've studied historic revivals extensively for many years. There is hardly a single one that did not come accompanied by counterfeits and demonic activities. And that is normal! Or do you suppose the devil just enjoys himself sitting idly by while souls are being touched?
Counterfeit implies true coin and the devil is vigilant to disgrace anything God happens to be doing that is ruining his kingdom.
Counterfeit in the midst of true is to be expected and exposed with grace and humility "for fear that you yourself may be tested".

Whenever great excitement accompanies a work of God there are also bound to be many displays of pure human emotions and yes stupidity, exaggerations, "the flesh" and that even on the part of some true Christians and leaders. That's human kind.

Whether it be Wesley, Whitefield, Finney, Moody, Edwards or any other you care to mention from China to Europe, strange things often happened. Things obviously not of God. Does that mean the whole was not of God? That it was only the devil and the flesh? Of course not.

I suspect most of the Bentley, Joyner, Rodney, etc bashing going on all over is all from second-hand info retrieved from the blogsphere. And, when the blogs visited all supported ones own views one revels in accusations - the work of the accuser as always.

And then we wonder why there are over 33000 denominations (divisions or divorces between churches) in Christendom and growing by 3 every week!! And they all think they are right! And most of them spend more time bashing the others than seeking God or indeed encouraging the others to seek him while blessing them.

My experience tells me that most "revival" bashing is done by the same folks who bash anything of any charismatic nature. A little heart searching might be appropriate for them.

A discouraging thread indeed.

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ORIGINAL: turtleman

As to words having power in Proverbs it says Life and death are in the power of the tongue. also You shall eat the fruit of your mouth.

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In Matthew it says a man shall decree a thing and not doubt in his heart he shall have whatever he says.

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Also the scripture says you shall be justified by your words and by your words you shall be condemned. You shall give an account of every idle word you speak.

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In James it says if you can control your tongue you can control your whole body.

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Yes words definetly have power.

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As to salvation Joyce Meyer, Copeland, and Dollar all preach Jesus as the Lamb of God who died for our sins. They also teach and correctly so that salvation is much more than a get out of hell free card.

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As far as money and sickness are concerned they teach that lack, poverty, sickness, anger, strife, hatred, are not of God.

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Your life is the product of your words and actions in the past. What so ever you sow that you shall also reap. Your words and actions are seeds that will bear fruit for good or ill.

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Earthless also said that the constant repitition of a song was an eastern mind control technique. In the Baptist church during praise and worship you could sense the Spirit moving but as soon as they sang three or four verses they went to the next part of the service many times quenching the Spirit. The reason many ministries keep playing the same song continually is because God is moving and music allows people to let their guard down and let the Spirit touch them and heal their damaged minds,bodies, and emotions.

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ORIGINAL: stateofgrace

Just a few thoughts in response...

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ORIGINAL: turtleman

As to words having power in Proverbs it says Life and death are in the power of the tongue. also You shall eat the fruit of your mouth.

Proverbs 18:21, NIV
The tongue has the power of life and death,
and those who love it will eat its fruit.

Have you seriously considered what that means? Because I don't think it means what you think it means. I don't think it's about something supernatural at all. When one looks at the style of writing in Proverbs, it tends to be about the natural, not the supernatural. The non-supernatural "power of the tongue" is that our words can tear others down or build them up. Even in the natural, there is no indication that this has anything to do with discussing whether teachings and/or practices are biblical.

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In Matthew it says a man shall decree a thing and not doubt in his heart he shall have whatever he says.

I'm having trouble finding that one (I did check KJV too). I know of a similar verse in Mark. Can you get me the chapter and verse?

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Also the scripture says you shall be justified by your words and by your words you shall be condemned. You shall give an account of every idle word you speak.

I'm assuming this is Matthew 12:36-38? I'm wondering what you meant by referencing this. Are you accusing people here of having "idle words"?

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In James it says if you can control your tongue you can control your whole body.

I think you should go back and re-read James chapter three. Like the very first verse "Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly." and the whole section betwen verses 1 and 12, where, among other things, it states that no man can fully tame the tongue!

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Yes words definetly have power.

I don't think you have made a biblical case at all for words alone having supernatural power.

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As to salvation Joyce Meyer, Copeland, and Dollar all preach Jesus as the Lamb of God who died for our sins. They also teach and correctly so that salvation is much more than a get out of hell free card.

They teach that Jesus' death on the cross was not a sufficient price to pay for our salvation (He had to go to hell and battle there as well). That demeans His sacrifice, IMO.

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As far as money and sickness are concerned they teach that lack, poverty, sickness, anger, strife, hatred, are not of God.

They are without a doubt ALLOWED by God and often used for His ultimate glory. There is much scriptural support for that. RE: Job, Jarius' daughter, Lazarus, etc. etc.

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Your life is the product of your words and actions in the past. What so ever you sow that you shall also reap. Your words and actions are seeds that will bear fruit for good or ill.

Yes, our words and actions do have consequences (but the grace of God exists as well, and there are times that we don't bear the full consequences of what we deserve!). However, you still have not made the case, biblically, that our words have some kind of binding supernatural power.

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Earthless also said that the constant repitition of a song was an eastern mind control technique. In the Baptist church during praise and worship you could sense the Spirit moving but as soon as they sang three or four verses they went to the next part of the service many times quenching the Spirit. The reason many ministries keep playing the same song continually is because God is moving and music allows people to let their guard down and let the Spirit touch them and heal their damaged minds,bodies, and emotions.

I don't remember for sure if Earthless has directly referenced this, but I have seen the testimony of a former WOF/Later Rain leader that stated that they would pick music that focused on FEELING a move of the Spirit, vs. music that mainly focused on some scriptural truth (for example, don't focus on Christ's sacrifice on the cross for us, focus on the Spirit raining down). This was the music that this particular leader wanted to repeat over and over again, because it lead people to desire manifestations. You even state that music can influence people to let their guard down. Music has an emotional effect on people. Is it so surprising that some might use it to emotionally manipulate others? A wolf in sheep's clothing is disguised as a sheep.

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Earthless also said that the constant repitition of a song was an eastern mind control technique. In the Baptist church during praise and worship you could sense the Spirit moving but as soon as they sang three or four verses they went to the next part of the service many times quenching the Spirit. The reason many ministries keep playing the same song continually is because God is moving and music allows people to let their guard down and let the Spirit touch them and heal their damaged minds,bodies, and emotions.