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RE: Deliverance question? - 8/29/2008 6:50:24 PM
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Him4all
Posts: 463
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quote:
1)Demons: all liars all the time.
I assume Jesus knows more than we know, and yet he asked a demon what his name was. IF we truly have the 'authority of Christ' in a situation I'm assuming that the demon has to speak in submission to that authority, and tell the truth, like I'm assuming he told Jesus the truth. Are there excesses to this practice, simply because it's in the bible and Jesus did it?...absolutley YES, in my opinion.
But, if I'm just some religious hotrod who read a book on deliverance and thinks he has ALL authority...when he doesn't...then YES, I do think the demon will 'lie like a rug' and 'Dumbo the deliverance boy' will probably believe his lies. I ASSUME a lot here because (unlike you apparently) I think there is a lot of mystery surrounding deliverance. I've read enough books by "the experts" to be frustrated by their contradictory differences. I KNOW I don't have all the answers, and I finally resolved myself to the position of 'hear and obey' whatever the Spirit leads me to do. And I admit I was just not as 'perfect' in doing that, as Jesus was in the bible.
quote:
2) I am, fortunately or unfortunately, well qualified to know whereof I speak having been on both ends and way too much of either one. So before you decide that you know more than I do, please consider that neither of us know all that much. That is why I do not recommend seeking out a 'deliverance ministry'.
I only have to read your opinions here to honestly suspect that I do know more, even though I haply agree it may not be that much. We're obviously in different camps concerning your recommendation. I don't know what "both ends" of your experience really even means. But I have a difference with whichever end would lead you to not recommend a 'deliverance ministry' at all. That's certainly contrabiblical.
quote:
Actually, I prefer to have nothing to do with them, period.
Unfortunately this view prevails in most all of the spectrum of Christianity and therefore demons have quite a nice time...in the very church that was 'called' to deal with them.
As far a my belief in levels of demonic authority, I have to rely on what I know from Christian books on the occult, Satanism as well as some personal experience with a local Mexican practice that has spiritual roots to Voodoo.
DR
_____________________________
When you violate LOVE you violate GOD.
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RE: Deliverance question? - 8/29/2008 7:44:05 PM
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solarflare
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quote:
I don't see the deliverance ministry as you see it but oh well.
So if your so against the deliverance ministry as performed today, how do you feel it should be performed. Lets call the deliverance ministry casting out demons as Christ did for the sake of the debate.
What deliverance ministry? At the beginning of your postings, you posed the question: I was wondering what place the deliverance ministry has
in today's church? That's the problem right there. Today's church.
Actually, you have an opinion....you just have not stated it, but are quick to defend someone elses' opinion because it is also, apparently, yours.
The fact this so-called ministry is not found as a ministry in the Bible, but rather part of a greater ministry, does not seem to matter to proponents of the Deliverance Ministry. You don't like what I have had to say because it does not fall within your particular experience. I have experienced what you are talking about and have come to the conclusion that this is a man made ministry and not what Jesus intended.
When you ask how 'do i feel we should get rid of those demons?' you are really asking don't I think your way is better ie. Deliverance Ministry. No, I do not think a deliverance ministry is better and I don't think it provides a Biblical model.
So, why don't you just state what you really believe and stop trying to corner me in what you think I believe because I will not be cornered or cowered into accepting what you or any other human fallible being tells me I should believe when I know Scripture teaches otherwise.
Every Christian should know how to conduct themselves in this manner because Paul tells us that we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against spiritual forces etc. Do you think he was addressing just a chosen few that the rest of us could go to if we had a problem with demons? Who ya gonna call, huh? The real problem is that religion has divided the truth of God up into little itty bitty baby bite size pieces and we think we can take it or leave it. It is all the Gospel.....not the parts that suit us.
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RE: Deliverance question? - 8/29/2008 7:55:15 PM
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solarflare
Posts: 798
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quote:
But, if I'm just some religious hotrod who read a book on deliverance and thinks he has ALL authority...when he doesn't...then YES, I do think the demon will 'lie like a rug' and 'Dumbo the deliverance boy' will probably believe his lies. I ASSUME a lot here because (unlike you apparently) I think there is a lot of mystery surrounding deliverance. I've read enough books by "the experts" to be frustrated by their contradictory differences. I KNOW I don't have all the answers, and I finally resolved myself to the position of 'hear and obey' whatever the Spirit leads me to do. And I admit I was just not as 'perfect' in doing that, as Jesus was in the bible.
I did not say you were or were not an expert. Rather, you asked me what I was when you said:quote:
Have you ever even been involved in a demonic manifestation/deliverance encounter? Who, in your opinion is walking in this 'qualified level' that you think is the standard for participation? You say speaking to demons is only a 'tactic of Satan'??? So, in your opinion, did Jesus 'blow it' when he 'talked to a demon'?
You still don't know what or who I am.....but are determined to believe that you know more than I do by stating: quote:
I ASSUME a lot here because (unlike you apparently) I think there is a lot of mystery surrounding deliverance.
However, I stated this: quote:
So before you decide that you know more than I do, please consider that neither of us know all that much.
So, I already acknowledged I am not an expert yet you try to insult me and make light of what I have said because it does not line up with YOUR
experience. And, I am telling you, that your EXPERIENCE, does not line up with SCRIPTURE.
Jesus addressed Satan himself during his temptations in the wilderness and how did he refute that liar? ONLY by the Word. He did not argue with Satan and have some kind of supposed exchange of knowledge with Him.
Then, you take my statement that I would rather have nothing to do with demons and use that to try and state that is the attitude of the church.
I have already stated in every post that demons are a reality, but for some reason you cannot see those lines. Perhaps you are a tad opionated?
How about describing for me line by line one of your deliverance sessions.
How about describing for me how some of the people you dealt with ended up thus: quote:
We had some wonderful success stories, but I also saw people end up in the psych ward because they wouldn't listen to us concerning tearing down the house of thoughts where the 'power' demon dwelt. And when they didn't destroy that house the original returned with 7 more (Matt 12:45)....I guess.
Do you really think I take that lightly.....all you can say about it is, I guess. You know, the truth is, you did not know what you were doing and most people don't. The end.
What kind of person says: They ended up in the Psych ward because they would not listen to us? Wow! Now that's a very healthy opionion of oneself I must say! Apparently, you had the power to keep them out of there if they had only listened to you, and then you sum that up with.....
I guess. Yeah, I would really want you to help me.
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RE: Deliverance question? - 8/29/2008 8:34:55 PM
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sledmt
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Despite the problems in the deliverance ministry I do feel that it follows the examples layed out by Christ most of time.
One can say that every ministry has it problems, but that doesn't mean that we dump the whole ministry.
Solarflare,
I was not trying to back you into a corner. I just wanted a simple answer.
The question is this: Christ and the disclipes drove out demons by the name of Christ. He then commanded us to do this..
I believe we are to follow these examples.
I beginning to believe that you think that none of this is for today. That resist the devil and he will flee. That at salvation the demon attached to a person just magically disappear. I know that this probadly is somewhat simple, but that what I have gotten from your post.
Please enlighten us..
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RE: Deliverance question? - 8/29/2008 9:17:40 PM
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Him4all
Posts: 463
Joined: 6/26/2007
From: Kansas
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quote:
I did not say you were or were not an expert. We have an apparent misunderstanding. I never took you to say I was or wasn't an expert. And my comment about "If I were some hotod ect" was actually an attempt to say I do relate with the shortcomings and frustrations we both see in ministering deliverance.
quote:
You still don't know what or who I am.....but are determined to believe that you know more than I do by stating: quote:
quote:
I ASSUME a lot here because (unlike you apparently) I think there is a lot of mystery surrounding deliverance.
You are correct that believe I know more than you, but you are incorrect in saying it is based upon the above quote from me. It is based upon (As I said earlier) the things that you have posted. Granted I may be wrong in my ASSUMPTION, but no more than you...in your assumption that I don't. 
quote:
So, I already acknowledged I am not an expert yet you try to insult me I'm sorry you feel insulted. It certainly was not my intent to offend in any way. But if you have taken an offense then hopefully you can deal with it in a mature way and forgive me.
quote:
And, I am telling you, that your EXPERIENCE, does not line up with SCRIPTURE. The truth be know, my experience doesn't line up with the deliverance books either...but I already confessed that...didn't I. So what's your point, if it doesn't line up with scripture according to you? Was there anything contrabibilical about something I said?
quote:
Then, you take my statement that I would rather have nothing to do with demons and use that to try and state that is the attitude of the church.
Are you honestly going to tell me that you disagree with the above statement?
quote:
How about describing for me line by line one of your deliverance sessions.
Too time consuming. And besides I already told you I knew we did things wrong, as well as right.
quote:
quote:
How about describing for me how some of the people you dealt with ended up thus:
We had some wonderful success stories, but I also saw people end up in the psych ward because they wouldn't listen to us concerning tearing down the house of thoughts where the 'power' demon dwelt. And when they didn't destroy that house the original returned with 7 more (Matt 12:45)....I guess.
Please read the BOLD print in my quote that you just posted and tell me what you don't understand. I know it was true for the two times it happened.
quote:
What kind of person says: They ended up in the Psych ward because they would not listen to us? Wow! Now that's a very healthy opionion of oneself I must say!
As a matter of fact, one of them just came to me in the church a few weeks back and thanked me for going through deliverance with her...not once but twice. And she apologised for failing to do the things I had told her to do in both sessions. But she is much better now...in her opinon. But not in my opinion. Do you want to know why? Because now she is on psychotrophic drugs. Drugs I don't think she would have needed had she listened. But then you probably would disagree with that statement too.
I'm sorry you have posted what you have. I've truly enjoyed a lot of your imput here. I hope you can get over my disappointment to you as a fellow believer. It would probably be best for the two of us to drop this until more fruit and less emotion prevails in print.
I, for one, will let this long weekend prevail before coming back. Have a good one. 
DR
_____________________________
When you violate LOVE you violate GOD.
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RE: Deliverance question? - 8/29/2008 10:21:40 PM
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sledmt
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I just realized that I didn't finish my question.
So, Solarflare here it is:
If Christ and his discliples drove out demons.
If Christ then commanded us to do like wise.
What should this "ministry" look like in the church.
How would you interpert this verse and other like it?
I know that we don't agree on "deliverance ministry",
but I really interested in how you view the end of Mark 16.
As a side note, I did see your statements about things you have experienced in past.
quote:
I have personally witnessed the removal of demonic oppresion by the individual crying out to God in their unpleasant state and seen that the presence completely went and did not return. On the other hand, I have seen people commanding demons 'in Jesus' name over and over and nothing happened.
I agree that sometimes freedom can be attained from just crying out to the Lord. But I have a hard time believing this would be that case every time.
quote:
Further, you or I speaking to a demon is absolutley luridly riduculous if we are going to compare what Jesus had done and can do when involved in such a discourse. I prefer the things to just shut up and leave.
I agree that the demon should just leave, and lets not waste time talking with the demon. But, answer, how does the demon leave??? Provide more detail. Do you see my confusion, I agree that the person should be free, but when the rubber meets the road, how does a believer do this. What verses in the Bible does the believer turn to for direction on how the demon leaves?
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RE: Deliverance question? - 8/30/2008 3:31:46 PM
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DaveW
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That is a good question: How does the demon leave?
And a second is like it: How do you know for sure when it has left?
We see many examples of the demonic leaving people in the NT. It always seems to have some kind of manifestation with it, either vocal or physical. If we are truly following the biblical example would we not get similar results?
_____________________________
Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
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RE: Deliverance question? - 9/1/2008 12:24:19 PM
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solarflare
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quote:
I agree that the demon should just leave, and lets not waste time talking with the demon. But, answer, how does the demon leave??? Provide more detail. Do you see my confusion, I agree that the person should be free, but when the rubber meets the road, how does a believer do this. What verses in the Bible does the believer turn to for direction on how the demon leaves?
The end of Mark 16......I am sure you are not basing an entire ministry on 16:17a.......I do not have confusion on the following, but if I were going to be confused, it would be a good place to start. Why the end of Mark 16? Why not what all the teaching in scripture having to do with demonic spirits says? If we are going to use that particular passage, then how about the poisonous drinks and handling poisonous snakes? Well, because that would be taking Scripture out of context.....so why is using this small passage recorded in Mark 16 not taking dealing with demons out of context?
I do not think my original post has been understood......I dislike the term "deliverance Ministry" is what my original post indicated. There is no deliverance ministry recorded in the Bible.....the way demons were dealt with, was on a as it happened basis......not some committee set up to deal with it. The reason we have 'deliverance ministries' in the first place, is because Scriputre has either been ignored or been relegated to 'true back in Jesus' days' but not so now.
'Driving out demons' is not a gift of the Holy Spirit....it is a 'sign' that will follow believers. Discerning of spirits is a gift of the Holy Spirit. Not dealing with demons. The problem is that Christians should know how to deal with these things as a matter of fact, but Christianitiy today is weak and watered down. It has become a form of godliness without the power.
We also have those who have completely misused the gifts of the Spirit (if such a thing can actually happen) and now conduct 3 ring circuses in the name of the Lord ... and make lots of $$$ on the side.
There is really no way I can sum up everything I think or the conclusions I have come to.....through experience, which led to study, which led to the conclusion that the teaching that Satan cannot inflict harm on Christians the way he does the rest of the world, is wrong. I am well aware of the many people on these threads, that even though they call themselves Pentecostal or Charismatic, shun the idea of Satan being able to inflitrate a Christian's life......this whole subject is rife with misinterrpretion, fear, confusion and wrong teaching....I am hoping that no one reading this necessairly takes my words to heart and applies them to themself and gets insulted. That is not the intent.
How do demons leave? Do they necessairly have to go out screaming? Sometimes they do and sometimes, not. I also do not see any reason to try to converse with them......if you are fond of quoting passages wherein Jesus addressed the demon in what you consider an 'exhange of knowledge', then how about when Jesus told the things to just shut up and come out?
Luke 8:26-39...the passage concerning the man with the demon named Legion...Did Jesus ask the name of the demon? Yes...but the demon also recognized Jesus and in fact he cried out and fell at Jesus feet. Some people say the man was doing this, but in fact, if your read the passage carefuly, you will see that the demons were actually doing it, using the man's body. In fact, this 'legion' cried at the top of his voice ....what do you want with me, Jesus Son of the Most High God?" ....but then, in verse 29, we see what really happened, Jesus had ALREADY commanded the demon to come out and that was the demon's reaction. It is then, that Jesus asked, "What is your name?" Jesus did not have some long conversation with the demon.....He basically kicked it out.
Mark 1:21-27...Jesus goes to Capernaum and into the synagogue to teach.
A man, in the synagogue, with an evil spirit, cries out "What do you want with us, Jesus of Nazareth?"
Does Jesus ask the demon(s) for a name? No. Jesus tells it/them to be quiet and come out of the man. I really have not seen any Scripture where Jesus has any interaction with demons in people, other than to address them to get out. If I have missed such a passage, kindly point it out. Demons shriek and do all sorts of nasty, demon type stuff....I don't see Jesus prolonging the manifestations or trying to get knowledge about the situation from the demons. Why would/should anyone else?
Paul, in the Book of Acts, is followed by a slave girl with a demon who proclaims him a servant of the Most High God...does Paul address that in any type of way indicating a conversation? No, after a few days, he's had enough, and tells the thing to leave the girl and it does.
Let's talk about all the other scriptures that address this topic.....like 'we wrestle not against flesh and blood'....or putting on the whole armor of God, and having done 'all', being able to stand. And many more...and how about OT passages? Anything to be gained there?
It is teaching that is lacking and facts seem to have been replaced by superstition. Again, don't take that personally, you obviously believe that demons are still around today and still need to be dealt with.
< Message edited by solarflare -- 9/1/2008 12:30:48 PM >
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RE: Deliverance question? - 9/1/2008 1:07:36 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 5586
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
That is a good question: How does the demon leave?(
I am not sure how demons travel around, but just know that they do (from the demoniac in the garden to the Pigs for example)
quote:
And a second is like it: How do you know for sure when it has left?
I would think that disearnment (1 Cor. 12;10);whoul have a role here.
quote:
We see many examples of the demonic leaving people in the NT. It always seems to have some kind of manifestation with it, either vocal or physical. If we are truly following the biblical example would we not get similar results?
Anytime I have dealt with the casting out of demons; there has been a manisfestation (sometimes many).
One point on this thread; it seems that some may feel they have failed when not every demon seems to flee when they are being dealt with.
I ask; did Christ cast every demon out of every person in the Holy Land during his three years of ministry? I think most llikely not.
Personally I do not think that there is a "Deliverance" ministry. I just think there is "Ministry" period, and if the opportunity avails itself; then we must do as Scripture tells us to do. And our instructions come by both example and instruction in the New Testament.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Deliverance question? - 9/2/2008 1:00:10 PM
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Him4all
Posts: 463
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From: Kansas
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Solarflare,
quote:
The end of Mark 16......I am sure you are not basing an entire ministry on 16:17a.......
I don't see anyone basing deliverance ministry solely upon Mark 16. I do see a lot of people in the church base their ministry gifting upon one verse though...and that's Rom 12:7, 8. But nobody seems to mind people claiming they have a 'ministry of ministering', 'gift of giving' or a 'gift of mercy' based upon one verse in the bible. That seems inonsistent to me.
quote:
I do not have confusion on the following, but if I were going to be confused, it would be a good place to start.
Maybe you don't have confusion, but you don't tell what 'understanding' you do have either. This section of the new testament, as it relates to 'authenticity', was never a problem for the church until the gift of tongues began to be restored a 100 years ago...and confusing 'some/most' ever since.
quote:
Why the end of Mark 16? Why not what all the teaching in scripture having to do with demonic spirits says?
Why the end of Mark? I suppose because it is the most blatantly 'black and white'. And as far as the 'rest' of scripture concerning deliverance...Jesus talking to a demon wasn't in Mark 16, but you don't like that verse either as it pertains to 'biblical precedence'. This is why you make me question if you're being completely honest with yourself on this issue.
quote:
If we are going to use that particular passage, then how about the poisonous drinks and handling poisonous snakes? Well, because that would be taking Scripture out of context.....so why is using this small passage recorded in Mark 16 not taking dealing with demons out of context? It is in context, for those who believe. It is only considered 'not biblical/out of context' by those who wish it wasn't in their bibles...but it is. I don't think the problem is context as much as it is interpretation.
The 'posionous drink' and 'snakes' is a difficulty though, especially when scripture is only read literally. but if it's read symbolically or spiritually, one can go other places though. Let's start with the symbolism of men being snakes and the posion that they speak...posion/words which many believers inbibe with the gusto of a winebibbing monk. 
John the Baptist and Jesus both talked about men as "broods of vipers, ". The OT and Paul spoke of them as vipers and serpents.
PSA 58:3 The wicked go astray from the womb, they err from their birth, speaking lies. 4 They have venom like the venom of a serpent, like the deaf adder that stops its ear,
PSA 140:3 They make their tongue sharp as a serpent's, and under their lips is the poison of vipers.
ROM 3:13 "Their throat is an open grave, they use their tongues to deceive." "The venom of asps is under their lips."
I do understand your problem with those who take the Mark scripture 'literally' and tempt fate with the 'snake handling' doctrine. I too have problems with all of that. But I'm not going to throw the baby out with the bathwater because of the misinterpretation of 'extremism'.
LUK 10:19 Behold, I give unto you power/(exouxia/authority) to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power/(dunnamis/power) of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
In this last verse I understand the spiritual significance/difference of a serpent and a scorpion and their respective levels of authority and power.
But, unlike you, I'll still admit I 'do have some confusion'...concerning Mark 16. So if you plan to attack my view, why not give us your "unconfused" view first, please.
DR
_____________________________
When you violate LOVE you violate GOD.
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RE: Deliverance question? - 9/2/2008 1:23:50 PM
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DaveW
Posts: 4073
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
Anytime I have dealt with the casting out of demons; there has been a manisfestation (sometimes many). Likewise.quote:
One point on this thread; it seems that some may feel they have failed when not every demon seems to flee when they are being dealt with.
I ask; did Christ cast every demon out of every person in the Holy Land during his three years of ministry? I think most llikely not. Yes, we must ask. Those who are versed in the gift of discerning of spirits can more easily tell than the rest of us.
I know many believe that if someone comes to faith, all demonic problems (call it demonization, oppression, possesion,,...) go away at New Birth. But I have only a couple of times seen these manifestations happen during that process.
So are these people not really saved or are they not really set free of the demonic?
_____________________________
Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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RE: Deliverance question? - 9/2/2008 3:03:28 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 5586
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
I know many believe that if someone comes to faith, all demonic problems (call it demonization, oppression, possesion,,...) go away at New Birth. But I have only a couple of times seen these manifestations happen during that process.
I think that believing that Opression, or influence, or temptation from demons is Possession is the falacy that causes so much confusion.
Jesus Himself was tempted, but certainly not possessed (totally controlled).
Peter was definately influenced by (as are many of us at times), but not totally controlled (possessed).
So before this discussion can take anything other than a coufused patway; let's decide what possessed is: maybe a definition we can all live with.\
I would suggesst we start with the idea that possession means total control of; as Paul stated we are slaves to sin.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Deliverance question? - 9/2/2008 3:31:48 PM
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DaveW
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I would start by saying that possession is a bad term to begin with. The word translated possession in the KJV could more accurately be termed demonized.
_____________________________
Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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RE: Deliverance question? - 9/2/2008 4:26:25 PM
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solarflare
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
I would start by saying that possession is a bad term to begin with. The word translated possession in the KJV could more accurately be termed demonized.
Yup. Keep saying it......somebody somewhere might really need to see that! 
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RE: Deliverance question? - 9/2/2008 4:31:31 PM
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Him4all
Posts: 463
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From: Kansas
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quote:
I would start by saying that possession is a bad term to begin with. The word translated possession in the KJV could more accurately be termed demonized.
I'm going to have to side with Dave on this one. Derek Prince did an excellent job in his book 'They Shall Expell Demons' concerning the Greek on this subject.
DR
_____________________________
When you violate LOVE you violate GOD.
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RE: Deliverance question? - 9/2/2008 4:33:28 PM
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solarflare
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I did read your book excerpt, rc. These things are real.
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RE: Deliverance question? - 9/2/2008 4:36:17 PM
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solarflare
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Him4all........I really think you do not understand my posts. Sorry.
I am being sincere.
quote:
So if you plan to attack my view, why not give us your "unconfused" view first, please.
I'm like.......what are you talking about?
I really think you have read waaaay more into my post then I intended.
< Message edited by solarflare -- 9/2/2008 4:43:27 PM >
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RE: Deliverance question? - 9/2/2008 5:31:38 PM
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DaveW
Posts: 4073
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From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Him4all
I'm going to have to side with Dave on this one. Derek Prince did an excellent job in his book 'They Shall Expel Demons' concerning the Greek on this subject. Derek is where I got that. He taught on it at the congregation I attended in college.
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RE: Deliverance question? - 9/2/2008 5:55:56 PM
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sledmt
Posts: 118
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All very interesting replies.
I have feeling that this could go on and on.
Derek prince has some wonderful books. I have several of them.
Solarflare,
I believe this is the problem with our confusion:
From your posts, I understand these things about you:
Deliverance ministry = dislike.
Deliverance ministry = unbibical.
Demon can leave when someone just calls on the Lord.
Demons does not leave person when minister drives out demon in Jesus' name.
The more I read your last big post, I believe that you do believe in casting out demons. Just not the way it is performed today in alot of churches.
I will say one thing, about your posts, makes one think.
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RE: Deliverance question? - 9/2/2008 6:09:47 PM
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Him4all
Posts: 463
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From: Kansas
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Solarflare,
I appreciate your "sincerity" and truly hope that we can respond to one another in a way that would bring more joy to the face of our heavenly Father.
This format is easy to read "waaay too much into". I hope that has been the case and a more gentle spirit can rule.
DaveW,
You heard him live! I wish I could have heard him teach and minister. I loved his tapes. I once heard that he got up early in the morning and showered, shaved and then put on a suit before going to the Lord in prayer....if that was true...Wow.
DR
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When you violate LOVE you violate GOD.
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RE: Deliverance question? - 9/2/2008 7:18:40 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 5586
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
I would start by saying that possession is a bad term to begin with. The word translated possession in the KJV could more accurately be termed demonized.
i certainly will not argue that, but would you please go the next step and give a thorough definition for "Demonized". Maybe once we get down what possessed (demonized) is we can discuss it.
Thanks
RC
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RE: Deliverance question? - 9/2/2008 10:07:49 PM
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DaveW
Posts: 4073
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Him4all
DaveW,
You heard him live! I wish I could have heard him teach and minister. I loved his tapes. I once heard that he got up early in the morning and showered, shaved and then put on a suit before going to the Lord in prayer....if that was true...Wow. I had the opportunity to sit down and talk to him one on one on a couple of different occasions. My home group leader saw him on several occasions praying in the early am in his bathrobe.
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Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
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RE: Deliverance question? - 9/2/2008 11:12:19 PM
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solarflare
Posts: 798
Status: offline
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quote:
From your posts, I understand these things about you:
Deliverance ministry = dislike.
Deliverance ministry = unbibical.
Demon can leave when someone just calls on the Lord.
Demons does not leave person when minister drives out demon in Jesus' name.
Deliverance Ministry: people being delivered of demons is not a ministry in and of itself....it is a sign that is supposed to follow believers...in other words, something that happens to show that what the believer is saying is authentic....just like when Jesus cast demons out. It is not a question of my personal likes or dislikes....it is a question of what Scripture teaches.
Unbiblical: I think I covered that above ?
Calling on the Lord: What is a person to do if they are alone and know they need deliverance? What if the situation is desperate and no deliverance team in sight? Should they look in the yellow pages? (don't mind me....that's just me being slightly sarcastic, pls. don't take it personally  ) I guess they could always just call on the Lord...........and they certainly can and do just leave when a person calls on the Lord. And no, not every time or right away. God is interested in us...in our hearts...one of the probs. I have with the so-called deliverance ministry mentality, is that the attitude many times seems to be like 'gangbusters'....we'll drive the demon out...the demon must go ...in Jesus name....and if nothing happens, they don't usually wait for Jesus like the disciples did......no, alot of things can go wrong and sometimes the person waiting for the big miracle goes home disappointed....just like people waiting for their healing. To be 'successful' you must have humility, genuine love, discernment and an expectation from the Lord, not from saying "Go in Jesus Name" as though it were some magical combination of words. I tell you, people's hearts have as much to do with deliverance as the name of Jesus.
I have read Derek Prince's book "They Shall Expel Demons"..and most others he has written. He is very frank about expelling demons from himself, when he was alone, so why there seems to be a problem with me agreeing with that, I don't know..... 
I really don't want to say too much about myself.....but if you agree with Derek Prince, you should not disagree with what I wrote because he teaches the same thing. But I have had my own experiences apart from what he has written, but I can say that what he writes is true.
Praying for people who need deliverance is a serious matter.
Please do not read into my words a personal 'attack'. I am only responding to what was asked of me and trying to explain, again, what I am saying.
I appreciate it if I have actually made you think. That, is always one of the main purposes in what I write here...people must think for themselves and not just jump on board the train even if it has Christian painted all over the sides.
quote:
Demons does not leave person when minister drives out demon in Jesus' name.
You know, I'm sorry, but I never said this. Would you show me where I said that demons do not leave if a minister prays over them or commands the demon to leave? I believe you read this into what I actually did say, which really puts me in a tight spot as it is hard to explain myself to people who 'see' things I did not say or write.
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RE: Deliverance question? - 9/3/2008 1:00:29 AM
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sledmt
Posts: 118
Joined: 8/25/2008
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quote:
And I really do not know quite where you are coming from with your different levels of authority with regards to Christians. Only Christ has authority over these things. I have personally witnessed the removal of demonic oppresion by the individual crying out to God in their unpleasant state and seen that the presence completely went and did not return. On the other hand, I have seen people commanding demons 'in Jesus' name over and over and nothing happened. So, you tell me. I tell you what, I am very convinced, that much of it has to do with the state of the heart(s) of the people concerned.
After reading one of your eariler post, I was lead to believe that the only way a person achieved freedom from demonic bondage was when a individual cry out to God. On the other hand, nothing ever happened when people were trying to cast out demons in Jesus' name.
I made a broad statement, but I didn't see any other place where you explain how a person could recieve deliverance from a demonic bondage other than crying out to the Lord. Note:: In your last post I see where you mention Christ casting demons out. I believe there is a place for both types of removing a demonic presence from a person.
Type One: As you stated about Derek Prince, crying out to the Lord for freedom.
Type Two: Someone drive the demon out in the name of Jesus as modeled in the Word.
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