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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/6/2008 1:20:59 PM
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solo_soprano22
Posts: 2473
Joined: 4/27/2005
From: I'm a Southern girl
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CoeurdeLeon
But it's also like this.....I have a hard time believing God tells people to have more children when they cannot or will not care for the ones they have. I have a hard time believing that God's plan for people is to continue having children and have the rest of us support them. That doesn't seem foolish to human reasoning, that seems to be contrary to God's own nature.
I may get flamed, but I'm tough.
Perhaps people think they're hearing God but they aren't. It happens. Not to say that everyone who hears God isn't really hearing from Him, but some people I believe are hearing either something else or hearing what they want to hear.
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For God, For Learning, Forever.
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/6/2008 1:50:53 PM
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kohls356
Posts: 360
Joined: 8/22/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22
quote:
ORIGINAL: CoeurdeLeon
But it's also like this.....I have a hard time believing God tells people to have more children when they cannot or will not care for the ones they have. I have a hard time believing that God's plan for people is to continue having children and have the rest of us support them. That doesn't seem foolish to human reasoning, that seems to be contrary to God's own nature.
I may get flamed, but I'm tough.
Perhaps people think they're hearing God but they aren't. It happens. Not to say that everyone who hears God isn't really hearing from Him, but some people I believe are hearing either something else or hearing what they want to hear.
No flames here I think you are correct about some people.
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/6/2008 1:58:04 PM
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10SNE1?
Posts: 179
Joined: 4/19/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: landabee
It is interesting to see the new definitions of QF. Since your definition can change, so can mine: QF is having as many kids as you feel led to by God, until it gets too difficult.
But at least until it does.......... you can smugly look upon those of us that stopped when we heard God, too.
and the addition definition: QF is trusting God enough to leave the size of your family entirely in His hands without regard for your own "selfish" desires....unless, course, your desire is for children and God has designed your body without that ablility....then it is fine too "fix' His mistake.
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/6/2008 2:07:40 PM
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Consecrated2God
Posts: 4923
Joined: 4/4/2005
From: Formerly Jesus Land
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quote:
But it's also like this.....I have a hard time believing God tells people to have more children when they cannot or will not care for the ones they have. I have a hard time believing that God's plan for people is to continue having children and have the rest of us support them. That doesn't seem foolish to human reasoning, that seems to be contrary to God's own nature.
Let's say a police officer pulls over a little VW Beetle, and finds that the family has squeezed eight people into the little car. There aren't enough seatbelts to go around, and it's dangerous. The police officer isn't going to ticket the driver for having too many kids, he's going to ticket the driver because the car was not adequate for the amount of passengers. He's not going to tell the driver that they should use birth control, he's going to tell the driver he needs a bigger car, or a mini-van. It's not against the law to have six kids, it's against the law to put them all in a little tiny car.
In the same way, parents should support their offspring. If a family refuses to support their children, they are outside of the will of God. It is not having children that is causing them to be outside of the will of God, but the refusal to take care of the children.
quote:
Perhaps people think they're hearing God but they aren't. It happens. Not to say that everyone who hears God isn't really hearing from Him, but some people I believe are hearing either something else or hearing what they want to hear.
I agree that sometimes that happens. From an outside position, we don't know that. Again, if God is directing them to have more kids against what looks like common sense, He'll take care of them. If not, they'll eventually see the error of their ways, but they are responsible for their decisions.
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<--Plantation house in Louisiana
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/6/2008 2:10:29 PM
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kohls356
Posts: 360
Joined: 8/22/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 10SNE1?
quote:
ORIGINAL: landabee
It is interesting to see the new definitions of QF. Since your definition can change, so can mine: QF is having as many kids as you feel led to by God, until it gets too difficult.
But at least until it does.......... you can smugly look upon those of us that stopped when we heard God, too.
and the addition definition: QF is trusting God enough to leave the size of your family entirely in His hands without regard for your own "selfish" desires....unless, course, your desire is for children and God has designed your body without that ablility....then it is fine too "fix' His mistake.
I agree if someone who is qf really believes that it is God that opens and closes the womb and is in control of the family size, then I would think it is obvious that if one is infertile then the womb is closed.
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/6/2008 2:16:33 PM
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kohls356
Posts: 360
Joined: 8/22/2007
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What if it isn't that the family is refusing to take care of their children but simply can't take care of their children. there is a difference between refusing to and not being able to. I mean they want to take care of their children but the income or whatever just isn't there, again it goes back to maybe they should wait til they are able to take care of more children.
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/6/2008 2:22:57 PM
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Memaw.
Posts: 2454
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From: Sunflower State
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I've been poking my head in here and reading.
Seems like this is the crux of it.
quote:
Again, if God is directing them to have more kids against what looks like common sense, He'll take care of them. If not, they'll eventually see the error of their ways, but they are responsible for their decisions.
Yes, the family is responsible for the decision to have more children than they can take care of, but if they can't feed them, where does the responsibility rest?
_____________________________
"Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction.
Every generation has to learn how to protect and defend it, or it's gone
and gone for a long, long time."
Ronald Reagan
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/6/2008 3:14:37 PM
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Consecrated2God
Posts: 4923
Joined: 4/4/2005
From: Formerly Jesus Land
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quote:
What if it isn't that the family is refusing to take care of their children but simply can't take care of their children. there is a difference between refusing to and not being able to. I mean they want to take care of their children but the income or whatever just isn't there, again it goes back to maybe they should wait til they are able to take care of more children.
They need to come up with a plan. Increase their education, get a better job. Work a second job, have the wife get a part time job. Start a home based business to supplement their income. If they want to have more children, there's nothing wrong with that, but it's important to have a plan to take care of them.
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<--Plantation house in Louisiana
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/6/2008 3:19:04 PM
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phosadaud
Posts: 10522
Joined: 9/19/2005
From: Washington State
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CoeurdeLeon
But it's also like this.....I have a hard time believing God tells people to have more children when they cannot or will not care for the ones they have. I have a hard time believing that God's plan for people is to continue having children and have the rest of us support them. That doesn't seem foolish to human reasoning, that seems to be contrary to God's own nature.
And I think that's the point. God very well may be wanting a family to have more kiddos, but until they are willing to do whatever it takes to properly care for those kiddos, they will not be in God's will. And since we are talking about children not a toy, I have a serious problem with folks who will "follow" God in one area but not the rest. Having a child is more than having sex and conceiving. If you aren't willing to do whatever it takes to go beyond the sex & conceiving part, don't say it is God's will that you have more kids. I don't believe God would EVER command someone to have kids and NOT command them to take care of those kids. Ever.
Maybe if we spent less time thinking of children as a blessing and more time thinking of how we can be a blessing to those kids, this wouldn't be an issue.
_____________________________
~Kristin~
Resume Quotations: "Reason for leaving last job: The owner gave new meaning to the word 'paranoia.' I prefer to elaborate privately."
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/6/2008 3:22:03 PM
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Consecrated2God
Posts: 4923
Joined: 4/4/2005
From: Formerly Jesus Land
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quote:
I don't believe God would EVER command someone to have kids and NOT command them to take care of those kids. Ever.
I agree.
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<--Plantation house in Louisiana
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/6/2008 5:55:41 PM
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kohls356
Posts: 360
Joined: 8/22/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Consecrated2God
quote:
What if it isn't that the family is refusing to take care of their children but simply can't take care of their children. there is a difference between refusing to and not being able to. I mean they want to take care of their children but the income or whatever just isn't there, again it goes back to maybe they should wait til they are able to take care of more children.
They need to come up with a plan. Increase their education, get a better job. Work a second job, have the wife get a part time job. Start a home based business to supplement their income. If they want to have more children, there's nothing wrong with that, but it's important to have a plan to take care of them.
I agree with that plan. However those things take time and money and aren't always easily accomplished. There may be nothing wrong with having another child while doing that if they are able to provide for that child, but if they can't again it would be wise not to until they can provide for that child.
Phosadaud has a point. This is about the children not the parents really. If an adult wants to live in a way where they can't provide for themselves that is one thing but the children have no choice. They didn't choose to live in poverty, sleep in the hallway or have no food to eat. That is the reason I am glad there is help, for the children.
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/6/2008 6:15:36 PM
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Sideways
Posts: 3627
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Consecrated2God
Remember, though, that it also takes time to have a baby. They take nine months to grow, and then if you breastfeed you don't even have to buy extra groceries for months after the baby is born. Most QF breastfeed and a lot of them do the cloth diapers and even home births, so the addition of a little one is not a strain on a budget for a few years. Now if they came out of the womb as teenagers, we'd have a problem. 
Those are valid points, but weren't you the one who said that if you had another baby, you'd need a bigger car, another bunk bed, etc.? Okay, the bunk bed could wait if baby sleeps with mom and dad, and some clothes could be passed down, although clothes wear out or are stained beyond use.
But there's still medical expenses, unless you do no prenatal care and an unattended home birth. So there's more then just food and diapers for a new baby. And I'm probably forgetting something.
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/6/2008 6:24:46 PM
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Mrs.X
Posts: 2933
Joined: 7/7/2005
From: Newberg, OR
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sideways
And I'm probably forgetting something.
Toys, carseat and medicine.
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-Stina
From Sweet Grass to the Packin' House
A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger. -Proverbs 15:1
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/6/2008 8:19:05 PM
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Consecrated2God
Posts: 4923
Joined: 4/4/2005
From: Formerly Jesus Land
Status: offline
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quote:
Those are valid points, but weren't you the one who said that if you had another baby, you'd need a bigger car, another bunk bed, etc.? Okay, the bunk bed could wait if baby sleeps with mom and dad, and some clothes could be passed down, although clothes wear out or are stained beyond use.
I would, yes. I'm at that point where we'd have to "Level Up" from "Moderately Big Family Size" to "Really Big Family Size." This size works for us. If I wanted to have more babies, though, I wouldn't have to wait to do it. We could go trade in on a 12 passenger if we wanted..but I'd rather keep our mini-van. Our family is at a convenient size for us.
Homebirths can be really inexpensive, and they include prenatal care. The most I ever paid for one was $2,000, and the least was $700. Carseats can be passed down, as can toys. Babies can be really, really cheap when they are little. They can also be really expensive if you want them to be. I think they don't really started affecting our budget noticably until they were school aged.
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<--Plantation house in Louisiana
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/6/2008 8:59:06 PM
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Consecrated2God
Posts: 4923
Joined: 4/4/2005
From: Formerly Jesus Land
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Hi, dradynsmom.
I think the word you want is "moocher", not "smoocher", first.
I understand where you are coming from. I would like to ask you one thing--do you have a plan to eventually be self-supporting? I would like to encourage you to work towards a life style where you don't have to be on food stamps. They are designed to get you through a tough time, but they aren't really designed to live on permanantly. Even if you are disabled, there are still jobs you can get. If you are interested in working, you could go throug Vocational Rehabilitation and they would be able to help you get education in a field you are suited for. There are many options available, and I think it would be best for you and your husband to meet with your pastor or someone else who cares about you and has some insight into your situation to develop a plan to succeed. I think it's entirely possible. My husband went back to school through Voc Rehab after an illness left him with severe hearing loss, and we both worked while having babies, homeschooling, and breastfeeding. So it's possible. We were on foodstamps for a time, too. Now we make a decent income and I can stay at home and we pay with our groceries with cash each time. It's a great feeling. 
_____________________________
<--Plantation house in Louisiana
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/6/2008 8:59:52 PM
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CoeurdeLeon
Posts: 9501
Joined: 9/4/2005
From: Inside my head
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Not better. Just more responsible.
I'm not sure why you think that I, a divorced mom working her keister off to take care of and provide for my own 2 children, should subsidize you?
If you find that judgmental.....well, I find it factual.
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This morning I was awakened by the sound of purple
colliding with the fragrance of laughter.
Eutychus
10.13.08
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/6/2008 10:27:28 PM
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NotDoneYet
Posts: 288
Joined: 12/11/2007
From: Virginia
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quote:
ORIGINAL: dradynsmom
First of all let me say that I have not read this entire thread only several pages of it. But that was more than enough to spark my frustration and lead me to ask several questions.
I am one of those people that you guys say is "smooching" off the government. I get foodstamps, WIC, and medical from the state. You guys act as if this is really wrong and against GOd or something. I have one living child, and one child that is in heaven due to a miscarriage in June. Can we technically aford another - probably not. Does that mean that we shouldn't be trying for another one? - THe answers to that ladies and gentlemen is a profound NO.
Hmm...so...it's ok for ME to pay for YOUR groceries, YOUR medical and mine too???
quote:
My husband works at Walmart and has for six years and is the "senior" in his position. You guys keep saying that if a family doesn't have a high enough income then the wife should get a job or the husband should either get a second job or go to college to get a better job. First off what if the mom is disabled like me and cian't work. I bet if she got SSI (which I don't) then you guys would be mad about that too. Second why should my husband have to get a second job just so that we don't need some help?
Walmart, unless you're management, doesn't pay enough to gas up my truck.
And, if you're disabled enough to not be able to work, are you able enough to raise another child?
When my husband and I were broke, and I was trying to finish school, he worked *3* jobs to help make the ends meet...we never took a DIME from anyone or anything...
quote:
All a second job would do is make it to where he is never home to spend time with his family and make him physically exhausted. And if he did go back to school then we would have to get federal grants to help with the financing and then that would make you guys upset too becuase it would be using up your precious tax money. Well I have news for you we pay our taxes the same as you!
In todays economy money doesn't stretch like it use to. After child support (for a child my hubby ad before he came to God), rent, electric, gas and other bills we are lucky to have $20 in the checking account. We are a frugal family. We cloth diaper, breast feed, and make food last. So what if we need a little help.
Do you have a plan for not needing this help in the future?
quote:
I use to come to this site for encouragement but i can not begin to explain how much this is exactly the opposite of encouragement. I have never been judged so harshly by a group of christians. My church knows of our situation and I cain't begin to tell you the times that I have opened the mail box to find a card from a member of our church with $10 or more in it just when we needed it the most. Yet our fellow church members are always asking when we are going to have another baby. THey know we want more children and know how devistated we were when we miscarried. THey have never judged us, just like all of God's children shouldn't judge us. I can not believe how much you guys are sterotyping and judging people you don't even know.
We aren't the perfect family and yes we do need continual support from the government, but I have two questions for you. Why should us having a lower than perfect income make it to were we can not enjoy the blessings of children and how does us getting help and you not MAKE YOU ANY BETTER THAN US?
"The Smoocher Off The Government"
Here's how it works:
Continual reliance on gov't help tells me that YOU aren't willing to take any actions to improve YOUR situation...
As far as judging...I cannot judge your salvation or lack thereof...however, I can and will judge that I am paying for your groceries, your medical care, and mine too. Is that fair to me? Is it fair that I am the one who busted behind to go to school, that my husband busted butt working 3 jobs while I worked one and went to school full time just so we could AVOID gov't aid, now paying for yours because you don't want to do whatever it would take to improve YOUR situation before bringing another mouth to feed into it?
If you are SO disabled you cannot work, you might seriously want to consider the wisdom of another child...(and before I get blasted, I work in a professional, white-collar profession, and work with people who have all sorts of disabilities...the only disqualifying one in my profession would probably be blindness).
There comes a time when the reality of a situation MUST take priority over the desires of YOUR heart...
And as far as stereotyping/judging people I don't know...after homelessness, busting butt to finish school, going from dead broke to a 6 figure (combined) income...I KNOW it can be done. The question is...how hard are YOU willing to work for it?
And yes...I have 3 children...and we are custodial grandparents to 2 more...
NDY
_____________________________
Remember, normal is just a setting on the dryer!
Ranting and raving: diaryofaravingmom.blogspot.com
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/6/2008 10:31:45 PM
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kohls356
Posts: 360
Joined: 8/22/2007
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I am sorry for your loss dradynsmom I have had two miscarriages as well.
I do not know what type of disability that you have where you aren't able to work. Plus I don't know how old your child is and really sometimes it is cheaper not to work so you don't have to pay for child care. As to the second point of why should your husband get a second job instead of receiving help for your family. Well because it is your family not the taxpayers. There are plenty of people who would rather be home spending time with their families instead of working another job but you take responsibility for the choices you make.
I often wonder what people would do if there wasn't help available to them. Would people still continue to have more children if there was no help to get?
I know I sound harsh to you but I agree with CoeurdeLeon that people aren't better just being responsible for their own. There are other people scraping by with just $20.00 left over in the checking accounts but still not receiving help, I was one of them at one time. There are people working two jobs to support their families meaning more taxes going to families that are receiving help because they don't want to take on an extra job.
Lisa offered some good advice that might come in useful.
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/6/2008 11:52:45 PM
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phosadaud
Posts: 10522
Joined: 9/19/2005
From: Washington State
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You never answered the questions as to why other people should be required to sacrifice and work their butts off so your husband doesn't have to do what most of us have had to do at some point in our lives. You have choices. You may not like those choices, but that's life. It's not easy and it's not fair. I say this not as a harsh statement but as reality. And, if you are physically capable of raising kids (a very physical job), then there are options for you to earn some extra income as well. You are not an invalid. Having some disabilities does not make you an invalid. And if you think it does, I'd love to introduce you to some of my disabled friends who prove that there are extremely few folks who truly can't work at all. Extremely few. True, you may have to look harder and you may not have the same options as someone else, but that doesn't mean it's impossible. Some of the things I know people have done is phone support from home for companies, computer work from home, etc. And, if you are capable of raising kids, why not earn some extra income by helping care for other kids? There are options.
You may think we are being "judgemental", but what you fail to realize is that while we don't know you, you don't know us. You have no idea our hardships and what we have sacrificed to "get by". You may think that's unfair, but the rest of us call that life. Life bites sometimes.
Doing what is right isn't always easy - in fact sometimes it requires great sacrifices. We had next to nothing when I was growing up, but we never took government aid (I'm not saying there isn't a place for government aid, just that my parents were always able to keep us fed/clothed/sheltered even if there was only $10 left in the bank). Why? Because my dad worked those long, long hours. Because my mom found a way to get training in a career that would pay the bills (there are a lot of training opportunities for free if you look hard). Do you think it was easy for my dad to miss out on my brother and I when we were little? Of course! But he loved us more than he did how tired he was or how many things he had to miss to put food on our table. That love is why our family is so close even as I am now 33 years old.
You may condemn me for "being judgemental" (which is kind of funny that it's ok for you to condemn us but not ok for us to point out that maybe you need to take responsibility for your life & your family), but that doesn't change the facts that you have options. If you don't want to take those options, don't expect the rest of us to work our butts off and sacrifice our families, our time, our tired bodies to support you so that you and your husband don't have to do something you might find a little difficult.
Welcome to real life.
_____________________________
~Kristin~
Resume Quotations: "Reason for leaving last job: The owner gave new meaning to the word 'paranoia.' I prefer to elaborate privately."
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/7/2008 12:06:55 AM
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dradynsmom
Posts: 120
Joined: 4/12/2007
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Just so that it is known - I have deleted my posts on the reason that I was not expecting everyone to jump me the way that they did. If anyone thought that I was judging them I am truely sorry. I meant nothing more than to point out that you guys we being unjustly sterotypical and judgemental. I am truly floored that you guys think that you are in anyway fully supporting my family and our cupboards. Even if they did away with all of the Welfare program you would still be paying taxes and instead of them going to help someone out who knows what they would be going for.
The responses I got from my post are absolutely uncalled for. Judging my disablity is wrong and judging my right to be a parent and parenting skills is even worse. I now completely understand why some nonchristians have the attitudes they have toward christians. We are all suppose to act like Christ and I really don't see how this thread is being encouraging or Christ like in anyway.
NotDoneYet - could you please delete the quotes that you have of my post. I do not want them to any longer be public knowledge so that more can think of me so harshly.
_____________________________
I can do everything through him who gives me strength.
Philippians 4:13
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/7/2008 12:11:17 AM
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solo_soprano22
Posts: 2473
Joined: 4/27/2005
From: I'm a Southern girl
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: phosadaud
You never answered the questions as to why other people should be required to sacrifice and work their butts off so your husband doesn't have to do what most of us have had to do at some point in our lives. You have choices. You may not like those choices, but that's life. It's not easy and it's not fair. I say this not as a harsh statement but as reality. And, if you are physically capable of raising kids (a very physical job), then there are options for you to earn some extra income as well. You are not an invalid. Having some disabilities does not make you an invalid. And if you think it does, I'd love to introduce you to some of my disabled friends who prove that there are extremely few folks who truly can't work at all. Extremely few. True, you may have to look harder and you may not have the same options as someone else, but that doesn't mean it's impossible. Some of the things I know people have done is phone support from home for companies, computer work from home, etc. And, if you are capable of raising kids, why not earn some extra income by helping care for other kids? There are options.
You may think we are being "judgemental", but what you fail to realize is that while we don't know you, you don't know us. You have no idea our hardships and what we have sacrificed to "get by". You may think that's unfair, but the rest of us call that life. Life bites sometimes.
Doing what is right isn't always easy - in fact sometimes it requires great sacrifices. We had next to nothing when I was growing up, but we never took government aid (I'm not saying there isn't a place for government aid, just that my parents were always able to keep us fed/clothed/sheltered even if there was only $10 left in the bank). Why? Because my dad worked those long, long hours. Because my mom found a way to get training in a career that would pay the bills (there are a lot of training opportunities for free if you look hard). Do you think it was easy for my dad to miss out on my brother and I when we were little? Of course! But he loved us more than he did how tired he was or how many things he had to miss to put food on our table. That love is why our family is so close even as I am now 33 years old.
You may condemn me for "being judgemental" (which is kind of funny that it's ok for you to condemn us but not ok for us to point out that maybe you need to take responsibility for your life & your family), but that doesn't change the facts that you have options. If you don't want to take those options, don't expect the rest of us to work our butts off and sacrifice our families, our time, our tired bodies to support you so that you and your husband don't have to do something you might find a little difficult.
Welcome to real life.
My mom is disabled to the point where there's little to nothing she can do as far as work; my dad worked three jobs. He got sick but still wanted to fight through it.... so he worked while he was sick until we literally forced him to the doctor. He never had a college education, but he made sure he took care of us. :) Sure, he's plenty exhausted/tired and was then, but they had us, so they did all of what they could to take care of us. I'm sure there may have been times we were on some assistance, but it wasn't for long if it did happen.
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For God, For Learning, Forever.
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/7/2008 12:24:29 AM
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phosadaud
Posts: 10522
Joined: 9/19/2005
From: Washington State
Status: offline
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No one has judged your parenting skills.
No one has judged your disability.
No one has said you should give your child up.
And the only person here who has condemned anyone else for being a "bad Christian" is you, so knock off the "I'm not judging you" act.
You need to reread our posts and see that we are trying to get you to see that you have OPTIONS that do not require us to support you with our long working hours. Here's one more: your hubby could start looking for a better paying job.
It's not right to expect someone who doesn't have a choice in whether you have a child or not to pay for your choice and I challenge you to find a Scripture that says that. In fact, I can come up with quite a few that would say the opposite of that. I would like you to give us a Scriptural response to why you should have more kids because you want them but not be able to support them without making everyone else pay for it? I'm not saying that to be mean, but to encourage you to think about this Scripturally. Unless you think it's a great Christian witness to expect everyone to work hard so you can have your way and what you want (since you think we are all such horrible Christians)?
I don't have kids. It's not because I don't want them. I do - very much. However wanting something doesn't make it right. Ever.
And if you really don't want to be a moocher, there are many of us who would gladly help you and give you advice and hook you up with places that can help you take personal responsibility for your family.
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~Kristin~
Resume Quotations: "Reason for leaving last job: The owner gave new meaning to the word 'paranoia.' I prefer to elaborate privately."
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