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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/7/2008 12:49:16 AM
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NotDoneYet
Posts: 288
Joined: 12/11/2007
From: Virginia
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quote:
ORIGINAL: phosadaud
No one has judged your parenting skills.
No one has judged your disability.
No one has said you should give your child up.
And the only person here who has condemned anyone else for being a "bad Christian" is you, so knock off the "I'm not judging you" act.
You need to reread our posts and see that we are trying to get you to see that you have OPTIONS that do not require us to support you with our long working hours. Here's one more: your hubby could start looking for a better paying job.
It's not right to expect someone who doesn't have a choice in whether you have a child or not to pay for your choice and I challenge you to find a Scripture that says that. In fact, I can come up with quite a few that would say the opposite of that. I would like you to give us a Scriptural response to why you should have more kids because you want them but not be able to support them without making everyone else pay for it? I'm not saying that to be mean, but to encourage you to think about this Scripturally. Unless you think it's a great Christian witness to expect everyone to work hard so you can have your way and what you want (since you think we are all such horrible Christians)?
I don't have kids. It's not because I don't want them. I do - very much. However wanting something doesn't make it right. Ever.
And if you really don't want to be a moocher, there are many of us who would gladly help you and give you advice and hook you up with places that can help you take personal responsibility for your family.
BRAVO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
_____________________________
Remember, normal is just a setting on the dryer!
Ranting and raving: diaryofaravingmom.blogspot.com
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/7/2008 2:28:02 AM
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dradynsmom
Posts: 120
Joined: 4/12/2007
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NotDoneYet will you please delete the quotes from my post. This will only take a couple of seconds and it would be very appriciated. Thank You in advance for complying.
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I can do everything through him who gives me strength.
Philippians 4:13
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/7/2008 6:12:00 AM
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CoeurdeLeon
Posts: 9501
Joined: 9/4/2005
From: Inside my head
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quote:
ORIGINAL: dradynsmom
Just so that it is known - I have deleted my posts on the reason that I was not expecting everyone to jump me the way that they did. If anyone thought that I was judging them I am truely sorry. I meant nothing more than to point out that you guys we being unjustly sterotypical and judgemental. I am truly floored that you guys think that you are in anyway fully supporting my family and our cupboards. Even if they did away with all of the Welfare program you would still be paying taxes and instead of them going to help someone out who knows what they would be going for.
The responses I got from my post are absolutely uncalled for. Judging my disablity is wrong and judging my right to be a parent and parenting skills is even worse. I now completely understand why some nonchristians have the attitudes they have toward christians. We are all suppose to act like Christ and I really don't see how this thread is being encouraging or Christ like in anyway.
NotDoneYet - could you please delete the quotes that you have of my post. I do not want them to any longer be public knowledge so that more can think of me so harshly.
We'd be paying taxes anyway?
What kind of reasoning is that?
quote:
No one has judged your parenting skills.
No one has judged your disability.
No one has said you should give your child up.
And the only person here who has condemned anyone else for being a "bad Christian" is you, so knock off the "I'm not judging you" act.
You need to reread our posts and see that we are trying to get you to see that you have OPTIONS that do not require us to support you with our long working hours. Here's one more: your hubby could start looking for a better paying job.
It's not right to expect someone who doesn't have a choice in whether you have a child or not to pay for your choice and I challenge you to find a Scripture that says that. In fact, I can come up with quite a few that would say the opposite of that. I would like you to give us a Scriptural response to why you should have more kids because you want them but not be able to support them without making everyone else pay for it? I'm not saying that to be mean, but to encourage you to think about this Scripturally. Unless you think it's a great Christian witness to expect everyone to work hard so you can have your way and what you want (since you think we are all such horrible Christians)?
I don't have kids. It's not because I don't want them. I do - very much. However wanting something doesn't make it right. Ever.
And if you really don't want to be a moocher, there are many of us who would gladly help you and give you advice and hook you up with places that can help you take personal responsibility for your family.
Excellent posy, Phosy!
_____________________________
This morning I was awakened by the sound of purple
colliding with the fragrance of laughter.
Eutychus
10.13.08
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/7/2008 11:14:45 AM
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landabee
Posts: 2868
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Central Florida
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 3cappuccinosmom
{{{dradysmom}}}
However, you did pop into an already heated discussion with a heated post of your own. 
I'm QF and I totally support you having another baby.  However, you have to see where others are coming from, and I agree with them on this. Welfare is there because working people pay taxes. I don't have a problem with folks using it temporarily during a rough time, but we are not entitled to it just because we're breathing and born in the USA.
If you don't have enough money to live, you husband should indeed get another job, because it is *his* responsibility to provide for his family, not the government's. Even something like pizza delivery can bring in an extra $1500/month, out of which you could certainly pay insurance premiums.
Okay, I said I was done. But here I am. 
Maggie explains exactly what posters like myself have been saying all along.
Have children: take care of them.
Maggie (sorry to use your example, Maggie) and her husband are unwavering in their conviction to allow God to determine how many children their marriage will yield. However, her husband (from reading posts over the years) is a hard working, diligent and attentive parent in the home.
While I may not share her conviction on the issue.........their life is a testimony. The parents partner in budgeting and such.
I would suspect if asked, they will feel rich with blessings. They may not have the latest and greatest gadgetry, clothing etc... but I doubt those things are important to them. They obviously have all they need and more than a bit of what they want.
Bottom line for me: embrace the fullness of QF, or don't.
Maggie's family embraces the blessings and the responsibility.
That is all any one is saying should be understood and practiced.
Unfortunately, my life experiences with secular families that do not practice family size control and even Christian QF have rarely mirrored the commitment that Maggie and her husband demonstrate daily and with grace.
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"Sound theology discourages ignorance instead of promoting it." ~ CourdeLeon
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/7/2008 12:31:11 PM
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Consecrated2God
Posts: 4923
Joined: 4/4/2005
From: Formerly Jesus Land
Status: offline
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quote:
Bottom line for me: embrace the fullness of QF, or don't.
I agree. I think most of us on this thread could agree with that.
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<--Plantation house in Louisiana
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/7/2008 1:59:46 PM
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NotDoneYet
Posts: 288
Joined: 12/11/2007
From: Virginia
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Consecrated2God
quote:
Bottom line for me: embrace the fullness of QF, or don't.
I agree. I think most of us on this thread could agree with that.
Yes...I'd love to have more kids...however...I know...emotionally, physically and financially, another child would be more than we can afford. I raised my 3 and we are now raising 2 more. We chose, 10 years ago, when we got married, to not have any children "of our own".
There comes a time when it might be smart to think realistically...
_____________________________
Remember, normal is just a setting on the dryer!
Ranting and raving: diaryofaravingmom.blogspot.com
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/7/2008 2:18:13 PM
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OneOfHisJewels
Posts: 2549
Joined: 8/9/2007
From: California
Status: offline
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quote:
Even something like pizza delivery can bring in an extra $1500/month, out of which you could certainly pay insurance premiums.
However, I know all too well from personal experience, that if you have pre-existing conditions, it can be well nigh impossible to buy an individual plan; every company turns you down.
I was actually thinking that Target might be a good place for her husband to work...it would be similar to what he does at Wal Mart, but they actually have a good health insurance plan.
Drandy's mom...I understand about having physical limitations..I have them myself..I'm pretty much in pain all the time..and yes my paycheck comes from the State, BUT I work for that paycheck..I take care of my disabled sister (she is LITERALLY completely disabled..28 yrs. old at a 4 month level)...so yes I get paid by the state(it's a program called In Home Supportive Services), but I am working for that pay..I have to keep my sister fed, bathed, clothed, etc. And I have to fill out a time card for hours worked, and get paid ONLY for those hours. And while it's not as great as Blue Cross, I do get somewhat of a health insurance package...I had tried working full time at a pre school, and although I enjoyed the kids, physically it was just too much....but I'm doing what I can..and I do think it is sometimes easier for men to "shove through" their pain than it is for women, so I certainly wouldn't expect you to work 60 hrs. a week in construction or anything. But before I taught preschool, I worked at Afterthoughts, and that was pretty low key..not physically hard at all...so could you do something like that...not work in a big department store, but find a low key retail job, just on Saturdays or something. Granted, it was a little easier for me, because I had a job "built in" when I found my health couldn't handle other things...but I think even if I didn't have my sister, I would try to do something...either babysitting or being a mother's helper part time or something..I think one thing I might do if I wasn't working with my sister would be to work in a thrift store sorting the clothes and small items. I've tried to encourage a disabled friend of mine to do this...I figure, it's not brutal work, and you're not dealing directly with the people much.....I guess I'm trying to see your situation from both sides of the coin here...I don't harshly condemn you, and yet I'm lovingly trying to encourage you of ways you could rise out of your situation..
Oh, I thought of one more thing..Is your husband mechanically inclined in any way? Because if he got training for that, they make good money.
_____________________________
"We basically use what I have seen referred to as "get off your butt" parenting. It employs more interaction, more redirection, more prevention, and usually less spanking."
-Mrs. Wifey
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/7/2008 2:42:56 PM
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Consecrated2God
Posts: 4923
Joined: 4/4/2005
From: Formerly Jesus Land
Status: offline
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quote:
I was actually thinking that Target might be a good place for her husband to work...it would be similar to what he does at Wal Mart, but they actually have a good health insurance plan.
My husband worked at Walmart for a year, and they had a really good insurance plan there. Our whole family had health insurance for around $30 a month.
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<--Plantation house in Louisiana
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/7/2008 3:11:25 PM
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macokjc
Posts: 256
Joined: 2/24/2008
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I'm really getting tired of the term QF. Am I the only one?
Listen, just because somebody disagrees with you, it does not mean that they are judging you or jumping all over you.
Our paper recently did a circle graph of the breakdown of where our county taxes go. Over 85% of them went to social programs: including medicare, medicaid, food stamps, wic, housing, etc... Maybe it's different in your state - but don't TELL me that we are not provide for those who don't work and can't/don't take care of their families.
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/7/2008 3:20:29 PM
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OneOfHisJewels
Posts: 2549
Joined: 8/9/2007
From: California
Status: offline
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quote:
My husband is self employed and we have no health insurance.
But don't you worry about what might happen if one of you gets into a major accident or gets severely ill? If neither one of you have pre-existing conditions, I would strongly encourage you to buy at least a disaster only plan (they can be as low as $80.00 a month).
And now, that we have veered so far off topic...................
let's see, what WAS the op? Oh, yes, when is a family too big....
I guess when they can't be provided for.....
although, as seen in this thread, what is necessary provision can be different things to different people....
to some, what's necessary is food, clothes, and shelter, and no more...
to others it's that plus health insurance....
to others it can include private school, vacations, nice clothes for the kids......
I guess each couple has to evaluate these things when figuring out how much the husband (or to some the husband and the wife) need to earn and how many children the couple can afford in relation to the lifestyle they strive to live.
_____________________________
"We basically use what I have seen referred to as "get off your butt" parenting. It employs more interaction, more redirection, more prevention, and usually less spanking."
-Mrs. Wifey
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/7/2008 3:32:58 PM
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kohls356
Posts: 360
Joined: 8/22/2007
Status: offline
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There was a time when we were without insurance, close to a year, and I did worry about something happening. Thankfully nothing did but yes it was a worry.
One of the first things I can remember learning in school was knowing the difference between a need and want. I remember basic needs falling into a very small category, food, clothing, shelter.
So getting back to the op I guess a family is too big when they can't provide the basic needs for their family without ongoing assistance.
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/7/2008 4:41:41 PM
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Sideways
Posts: 3627
Joined: 4/12/2005
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I would include food, shelter, clothing, utilities, and definitely insurance (both life and medical/dental). Children might also require some very basic extras depending on age. (Thinking about the car seat example, you can pass that down to a younger child, provided the older child doesn't need a seat anymore, but car seats are not considered safe after 5 years or once they've been in a car accident.)
In the long term I would also include saving for the future. I understand there will be months when a family barely pays the bills they have, but it is absolutely foolish to think you will never need a roof replaced, never have an unexpected car repair, things like that. Plus, most folks don't want to still be living paycheck to paycheck when they are 78.
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This warranty does not include shark bites, bear attacks and children under five.
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/7/2008 6:43:45 PM
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Kat_D
Posts: 3111
Joined: 9/2/2005
From: Where We Shake, Rattle & Roll!
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Kohls356
I often wonder what people would do if there wasn't help available to them. Would people still continue to have more children if there was no help to get?
Good question! I'd bet there would be lots of families who would reconsider having children or additional children if there were no government benefits/assistance to be had.
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~Kat
"...And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes...no more death, sorrow, nor crying."
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/7/2008 6:56:44 PM
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OneOfHisJewels
Posts: 2549
Joined: 8/9/2007
From: California
Status: offline
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quote:
Am I the only one that finds it ironic that in the first few pages of this thread those of us urging fiscal responsibility were lambasted?
That IS odd...upthread, though(and I know you're not even talking about any of my posts), I guess I was trying to walk a fine line between justice and mercy.
And I was glad to hear that drady'smom does do things like cloth diapers and things like that. What's really annoying is people who are on welfare go and get expensive haircuts, get their nails done, etc.
_____________________________
"We basically use what I have seen referred to as "get off your butt" parenting. It employs more interaction, more redirection, more prevention, and usually less spanking."
-Mrs. Wifey
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/7/2008 10:22:59 PM
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PatricksPeaches
Posts: 306
Joined: 5/13/2008
From: Michigan
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I am going to jump in on this one!
I receive benefits from the state in which I live. I get Medicaid and Food Stamps. Both my dh and I have health issues that are on going and we couldn't afford private insurance with these conditions. BUT, we both also work!! He works in his aunt and uncles motorcycle shop and I just started part time at Meijer. Neither offer insurance benefits for the family.
We live very simply and are very glad to get what we do. It is only a help, we do come out of our pocket for things. We pay our bills with our earned money. We do not receive cash from the state. We do not have brand new cars or name brand anything. We have older cars that were paid for with our tax returns. We shop at thrift stores and value grocery stores. Our mobile home was given to us from my mom and is paid for. It is a 2 bedroom home but is a home just the same.
It burns me up when I see people driving brand new cars and living in large homes collecting benefits. In my area here, and probably others, the men (mostly illegals) go to work to make money and the women claim to be single and need the assistance. They are cheating the system and make those who need a little extra help get a bad rap. It horrible because honest people can't get help sometimes but the liars and cheaters seem to get away with it. I guess that is how the world works. I am just happy to get the little I do.
I have 2 daughters and would love a house full of children. I take care of my children. I buy their clothes, diapers, shoes, and things. The state provides food and medical. I don't spend my money on foolish things and then ask the state to get me the necessities. I get the necessities with my earned cash and a little food stamps.
I had a hard time when I decided to go to work because I want to raise my kids. I do not want to have strangers raising my kids. I could do that, and have the state pay for child care. Luckily my mom has volunteered to sit for me. I might not have gone back to work if it wasn't for that!
I guess my point is, there are some that "need a little help" and some who "just want it cause its there". I don't take more than I need and I don't expect others to pay for my children's basic needs. If we could get health benefits from either of our jobs, we would pay for it but it is just not an option for us and neither of us can go without our meds or doctor care.
_____________________________
*Robin*
I am not claiming to have all the answers but I'm holding on to the one who does!
-quoted from a song by 33Miles called Come With Me
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/7/2008 10:34:17 PM
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kohls356
Posts: 360
Joined: 8/22/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PatricksPeaches
I am going to jump in on this one!
I receive benefits from the state in which I live. I get Medicaid and Food Stamps. Both my dh and I have health issues that are on going and we couldn't afford private insurance with these conditions. BUT, we both also work!! He works in his aunt and uncles motorcycle shop and I just started part time at Meijer. Neither offer insurance benefits for the family.
We live very simply and are very glad to get what we do. It is only a help, we do come out of our pocket for things. We pay our bills with our earned money. We do not receive cash from the state. We do not have brand new cars or name brand anything. We have older cars that were paid for with our tax returns. We shop at thrift stores and value grocery stores. Our mobile home was given to us from my mom and is paid for. It is a 2 bedroom home but is a home just the same.
It burns me up when I see people driving brand new cars and living in large homes collecting benefits. In my area here, and probably others, the men (mostly illegals) go to work to make money and the women claim to be single and need the assistance. They are cheating the system and make those who need a little extra help get a bad rap. It horrible because honest people can't get help sometimes but the liars and cheaters seem to get away with it. I guess that is how the world works. I am just happy to get the little I do.
I have 2 daughters and would love a house full of children. I take care of my children. I buy their clothes, diapers, shoes, and things. The state provides food and medical. I don't spend my money on foolish things and then ask the state to get me the necessities. I get the necessities with my earned cash and a little food stamps.
I had a hard time when I decided to go to work because I want to raise my kids. I do not want to have strangers raising my kids. I could do that, and have the state pay for child care. Luckily my mom has volunteered to sit for me. I might not have gone back to work if it wasn't for that!
I guess my point is, there are some that "need a little help" and some who "just want it cause its there". I don't take more than I need and I don't expect others to pay for my children's basic needs. If we could get health benefits from either of our jobs, we would pay for it but it is just not an option for us and neither of us can go without our meds or doctor care.
PatricksPeaches, you are not one I have a problem with receiving benefits. From what you have said you and your husband are working and doing your best to provide for your family. Families like yours aren't the ones I have a problem with. It is those who are not willing to help themselves or continue to add to their family when they aren't able to take care of the children they already have.
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/7/2008 10:57:03 PM
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29redballoons
Posts: 707
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Georgia
Status: offline
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Okay, I posted this am, then deleted it...but all day this thread weighed on my mind. I pay taxes. That is mandated by the government. The bible tells us to pay "ceasar" his due. What the government does with them, is not my concern. I am only accountable for my part. I do not receive help...but praise God it is there if I need it.
My only real concern about this thread is...
IF I ever have to go to my church for assistance, I pray that the person I meet with and ask for help has a heart for ministry and isn't sitting across from me attempting to decide whether I truly deserve help or not. I honestly think churches should be sure that we are helping with the right heart...or just don't help. I would hate to know I was given assistance and then everyone deemed that I was raising a family that was too big because I needed their assistance.
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Red
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/7/2008 11:37:46 PM
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Mrs.Wifey
Posts: 5097
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: The Gorgeous plains of Colorado
Status: offline
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quote:
Does that mean that we shouldn't be trying for another one? - THe answers to that ladies and gentlemen is a profound NO.
Then don't be offended by those of us who do work 2 jobs to afford food, gas, and insurance when we don't want to pay into a welfare system that supports those who don't want to.
quote:
When my husband and I were broke, and I was trying to finish school, he worked *3* jobs to help make the ends meet...we never took a DIME from anyone or anything...
Kudos to your husband, NDY! Mine has worked hard as well, and I just decided to go back to work so that I can carry our medical benefits.
quote:
And if he did go back to school then we would have to get federal grants to help with the financing and then that would make you guys upset too becuase it would be using up your precious tax money. Well I have news for you we pay our taxes the same as you!
I wouldn't mind at all if MORE people would start using Pell grants and less welfare. PLEASE, better your life and go to college. Btw, if your on food stamps, wic, and state aid then you are getting back more then you paid into the system, especially when you include your tax refund.
quote:
And as far as stereotyping/judging people I don't know...after homelessness, busting butt to finish school, going from dead broke to a 6 figure (combined) income...I KNOW it can be done. The question is...how hard are YOU willing to work for it?
And yes...I have 3 children...and we are custodial grandparents to 2 more...
NDY, congrats! Those are the stories I like to hear as DH and I are busting our behinds to better our situation.
quote:
Even if they did away with all of the Welfare program you would still be paying taxes and instead of them going to help someone out who knows what they would be going for.
I don't mind paying for welfare, if it's being used by people in temporary situations or by those who are TRYING to better their lives. We've used WIC when we had unexpected unemployment, so I have no problem with using government aid in certain situations.
Robin, you guys definitely sound like you are working hard! Hopefully(prayerfully) you guys can be self-sufficient soon! Wouldn't that be great! Your family is not the type that I have a problem with
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/7/2008 11:50:55 PM
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phosadaud
Posts: 10522
Joined: 9/19/2005
From: Washington State
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 29redballoons
My only real concern about this thread is...
IF I ever have to go to my church for assistance, I pray that the person I meet with and ask for help has a heart for ministry and isn't sitting across from me attempting to decide whether I truly deserve help or not. I honestly think churches should be sure that we are helping with the right heart...or just don't help. I would hate to know I was given assistance and then everyone deemed that I was raising a family that was too big because I needed their assistance.
You are correct - but what you are describing is not what this thread is discussing. I think most people at one time or another need some help. That's called life. I don't think one person posting here would say that you didn't deserve help simply because you have a large family. That is NOT the issue if you are reading this thread. The issue is when you cannot & will not support your family (on a long-term basis not a temporary basis) and expect other people to financially support your decision to continue enlargen your family.
And by the way, I am the bookkeeper of a large church and while I completely understand how uncomfortable it is for folks to feel that the church is trying to determine whether a need is legit, that is because it is the wise and prudent thing for a church to do. At my church alone, we have folks show up on a daily basis saying they need help for this or that. Sometimes it's easy to know a need is not a need (like the folks who show up to get money to pay their cable bill --> I'm not kidding), sometimes it's not. Especially with addicts. If you have ever worked with addicts, you will know that some of them are extremely adept at bilking folks out of money to support their habits.
The sad fact is, no church has unlimited funds and to have to turn someone down who legitimately needs help because you just "helped" 20 folks who don't need it, makes your stomach churn. That's one of the reasons why Jesus warned us:
Mt 10:16 I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves.
_____________________________
~Kristin~
Resume Quotations: "Reason for leaving last job: The owner gave new meaning to the word 'paranoia.' I prefer to elaborate privately."
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