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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/8/2008 1:54:22 AM
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spitzu
Posts: 1064
Joined: 4/19/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 29redballoons
What the government does with them, is not my concern.
Sure it is. We are still a democracy, no?
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/8/2008 4:37:08 AM
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Memrie88
Posts: 39
Joined: 9/7/2008
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Here's a twist;
Say a young married couple has 2.5 kids. Feeds and clothes them very well. Sees to their bodily/daily needs yet neglects their christian upbringing?
Raises them worldly, yet they are "visibly" vibrant children that most would deem to become completely successful adults.... BUT THEY DON'T. (It happens)
Compare that to:
A young married couple that has 4 to 6 kids and raises them godly, yet they have had to use gov't assistance for however long. (and I mean "however long" to indicate that it varies greatly)
Most assume these kids will just become the same dependents on system...BUT THEY DON'T. (It happens)
Believing that the poor beget the poor is wrong thinking.
Just like thinking that the rich beget the rich is wrong thinking.
It is not so blanket. So simple.
I have a sister that was a 17 yo hs pregnant dropout. She struggled for most of her life but always kept her aims HIGH. She is a very rich lady today. But WORKED her tail off to get there.
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/8/2008 6:14:49 AM
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Sideways
Posts: 3627
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: spitzu
quote:
ORIGINAL: 29redballoons
What the government does with them, is not my concern.
Sure it is. We are still a democracy, no?
You'd best believe it is. Just because they are our "authority" doesn't mean they don't answer to us.
quote:
Believing that the poor beget the poor is wrong thinking.
Just like thinking that the rich beget the rich is wrong thinking.
I have a sister that was a 17 yo hs pregnant dropout. She struggled for most of her life but always kept her aims HIGH. She is a very rich lady today. But WORKED her tail off to get there.
I don't think anyone here has complained about the poor begetting the poor. What we're talking about is the here and now, and if those on welfare are showing signs that they are working to get off of welfare, just like your sister worked to improved her condition. And kuddos to her.
But no one has complained about the potential that welfare kids ending up on welfare themselves, although raw data does show that to be more likely then rick kids ending up on welfare, although not always a sure thing, certainly.
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This warranty does not include shark bites, bear attacks and children under five.
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/8/2008 12:58:58 PM
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landabee
Posts: 2868
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Central Florida
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 3cappuccinosmom
quote:
Am I the only one that finds it ironic that in the first few pages of this thread those of us urging fiscal responsibility were lambasted?
None of us had a problem with working hard and fulfilling one's responsibilities to the best of one's abilities.
I personally had a problem with "Just use birth control" as the answer to the problem of moochers.
Other suggestions besides chemical birth control were suggested.
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THe problem isn't that they have children or may have more children.
I agree. The problem is failure to parent or provide or both.
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THe problem is entitlement attitudes towards welfare. And on top of that, while there may be some obvious moochers and people who work the system,
My position is that welfare is transitional.
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it is awfully close to judging a person's heart and motive to make blanket statements about how people who use assistance or who are very poor just need to be responsibly and stop having kids.
It is not judging someone's heart to speak with folks and hear them give exasperating reasons for not taking responsibility.
I did not make blanket statements. I may have to look back to see if others did. I personally know many families that do whatever it takes to be responsible. That is my position.
A mooch is a mooch. A person on hard times is not.
Large families are not the enemy.
The enemy is laziness and irresponsibility.
Again: I utilized government assistance transitionallly as a divorced woman of two young children that had no work skills.
I acquired skill sets..........made more money and no longer received assistance. I thank God the assistance was there.
I also know how it feels to have someone pre-judge you. (Which is NOT what I'm supporting) I have sat in the waiting room of DCF waiting for my nine o'clock appointment.........needing to get to work..........and having my name called at 11:OO. When finally called I dealt with a jaded worker that dismissed my personhood.
So, I get the "don't look down and pre-judge thing".
But the bible says that you know people by their fruit.
If their ain't no fruit on the tree........ then what?
I seem to remember Jesus causing a fruitless tree to wither and die.
And before you think I want people on assistance to die. It is allegory. They need to produce fruit of their labor.
That is all I was saying.
If someone feels led to have their family sized determined by God, then they need to also feel led to be determined to support their offspring.
Underemployment gets my goat!
When I lived in a VERY poor apartment complex, I cannot tell you how many conversations I heard while doing laundry of people turning down jobs because they paid too much to allow them to continue to receive benefits. And yes, they continued to have more children.
Another analogy: I welcome people over for dinner all the time. But I don't plan to cook for them every night, so that they don't have to work to buy groceries.
_____________________________
"Sound theology discourages ignorance instead of promoting it." ~ CourdeLeon
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/8/2008 1:11:37 PM
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landabee
Posts: 2868
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Central Florida
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I had a thought.
If a non-secular, Christian couple is intent on allowing God to give as many children as He sees fit, why are they not intent on allowing God to receive the glory as they work to provide for them? Make their lives a living testimony of the faithfulness of God, not the faithfulness of public assistance.
One would think it would taint their testimony. Indeed based on this thread, it is obvious that it happens in enough instances to feed this debate.
< Message edited by landabee -- 9/8/2008 1:23:49 PM >
_____________________________
"Sound theology discourages ignorance instead of promoting it." ~ CourdeLeon
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/8/2008 3:25:03 PM
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Consecrated2God
Posts: 4924
Joined: 4/4/2005
From: Formerly Jesus Land
Status: online
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quote:
My position is that welfare is transitional.
I agree.
quote:
If a non-secular, Christian couple is intent on allowing God to give as many children as He sees fit, why are they not intent on allowing God to receive the glory as they work to provide for them? Make their lives a living testimony of the faithfulness of God, not the faithfulness of public assistance.
I don't think you will find very many QF people who believe in dependence on the system. They may be on foodstamps in a transitionary time in their lives, and they most likely aren't going to suspend their convictions during a rough transitionary time.
The fullness of QF beliefs does include hard work and providing for their own, and their lives are indeed living testimonies of God's provision.
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<--Plantation house in Louisiana
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/8/2008 3:43:54 PM
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phosadaud
Posts: 10522
Joined: 9/19/2005
From: Washington State
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quote:
ORIGINAL: landabee
quote:
ORIGINAL: 3cappuccinosmom
quote:
Am I the only one that finds it ironic that in the first few pages of this thread those of us urging fiscal responsibility were lambasted?
None of us had a problem with working hard and fulfilling one's responsibilities to the best of one's abilities.
I personally had a problem with "Just use birth control" as the answer to the problem of moochers.
Other suggestions besides chemical birth control were suggested.
Yep and the basic point was that if you (generic you, not anyone here) have no ability to nor intention to take personality responsibility for the children you are having, maybe you need to rethink whether continuing to have kiddos is a wise decision. I say it isn't and I'm actually a bit flummoxed that people seem upset by that. 
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THe problem isn't that they have children or may have more children.
I agree. The problem is failure to parent or provide or both.
Yep. One kid may be too many for some folks. 20 kids may be perfectly fine for others. It's not about numbers but about caring for the number(s) you have.
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quote:
THe problem is entitlement attitudes towards welfare. And on top of that, while there may be some obvious moochers and people who work the system,
My position is that welfare is transitional.
Me too. I would never want to end welfare. It serves a very important purpose. Anyone, and I mean anyone, can go through a rough time and need a little help. Life happens. Personally, I'd love to see the Church and families doing more to help folks than an impersonal government, but since most folks don't give much to their local church body, I don't see that as practical.
9 years ago, I was unemployed/underemployed for 7 months. Not good when you are single and your income is the only income. I did anything I could in between pounding the pavement looking for full-time employment. Between working some on my dad's farm at nearly minimum wage and no benefits and the occasional help from parents & aunts & uncles, and God doing a miracle (no exaggeration) in my pantry, I didn't have to turn to the government aid or even church benevolence. It was hard and I learned very quickly the difference between needs and wants.
If I had been married, you'd better believe that starting a family during that time would have been the absolute LAST thing on my list of things to do. If God worked things out otherwise, I would find a way to make it work, but I certainly never would have intentionally brought a child, a helpless child I was solely responsible for, into a world where I didn't know whether I could provide the basics for them. I just can't even comprehend why that would even cross my mind.
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quote:
it is awfully close to judging a person's heart and motive to make blanket statements about how people who use assistance or who are very poor just need to be responsibly and stop having kids.
It is not judging someone's heart to speak with folks and hear them give exasperating reasons for not taking responsibility.
I did not make blanket statements. I may have to look back to see if others did. I personally know many families that do whatever it takes to be responsible. That is my position.
Exactly. Babies are not dolls. If you can't care for them and have no intention of providing the basics for them, the ethical thing is to stop having them in as much as it depends on you. If that's a judgemental, "blanket" statement, so be it. I care more for kiddos than I do stroking a selfish person's ego. And yes, anyone who cares more about getting pregnant than they do about the welfare of their child is selfish.
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Resume Quotations: "Reason for leaving last job: The owner gave new meaning to the word 'paranoia.' I prefer to elaborate privately."
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/8/2008 4:01:12 PM
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Hislittleone
Posts: 625
Joined: 7/13/2007
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Wow. I just finished reading this entire thread and must say that some very good points have been made. I agree that public assistance should be transitional. And if a family finds they are unable to provide for their children without using some kind of assistance then they should wait to add more children to the mix. It's irresponsible behavior to purposefully get pregnant when you already can't provide for the children you have. From all I know about God, He expects us to be wise and to work hard to provide for ourselves/our families. So if someone is claiming to trust in Him to provide but their fruit shows a lack of wisdom and laziness then I have a hard time thinking that they are truly in His will. I don't think there's anything wrong with advising (if they ask) someone to wait to have more children until they are able to properly provide.
My husband and I used WIC and another program that helped provide medical care for our newborn baby. Thankfully we were only on it for a short time. I would not have chosen to get pregnant again in that situation because we already had a hard time providing. It wouldn't have made sense to add to our family at such a time. It would have been foolish to do such a thing.
No one in my family has ever used government assistance before. It was humiliating but necessary at the time. I don't understand how some people can just take and take with no thought of trying to better their lives without feeling some degree of humiliation. It's just beyond my understanding. (Please note that I am talking about those who stay on it for long periods of time not because they can't better their situation but because they won't.)
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/8/2008 4:06:47 PM
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Consecrated2God
Posts: 4924
Joined: 4/4/2005
From: Formerly Jesus Land
Status: online
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quote:
And if a family finds they are unable to provide for their children without using some kind of assistance then they should wait to add more children to the mix.
I don't have any problem with QF families living by their convictions even during a transitional time of being on foodstamps.
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<--Plantation house in Louisiana
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/8/2008 4:13:21 PM
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Hislittleone
Posts: 625
Joined: 7/13/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Consecrated2God
quote:
And if a family finds they are unable to provide for their children without using some kind of assistance then they should wait to add more children to the mix.
I don't have any problem with QF families living by their convictions even during a transitional time of being on foodstamps.
How long is transitional? That may be an important thing to define within this discussion.
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/8/2008 5:23:45 PM
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Consecrated2God
Posts: 4924
Joined: 4/4/2005
From: Formerly Jesus Land
Status: online
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quote:
How long is transitional? That may be an important thing to define within this discussion.
That would probably vary. Time to get a new job in the case of a lost one, or to re-train in the case of underemployment, or to get a fledgling business on its feet. My parents had a great home business going and it went south, and they've spent the last few years building a new one. It's starting to boom and they anticipate going off food stamps soon. They are too old to have anymore kids at this point, so they technically aren't a good fit for this discussion since my mom will probably not be getting pregnant at the age of 52. In their case it was a few years on food stamps while they built their business up.
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<--Plantation house in Louisiana
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/8/2008 5:42:57 PM
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kohls356
Posts: 361
Joined: 8/22/2007
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It is quite possible to have two more children during that transitional time of two years. I know a couple of qf families who have children that close.
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/8/2008 5:57:03 PM
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Consecrated2God
Posts: 4924
Joined: 4/4/2005
From: Formerly Jesus Land
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Sure, but like I said earlier, babies can cost very little. A toddler eats hardly anything.
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<--Plantation house in Louisiana
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/8/2008 6:01:36 PM
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OneOfHisJewels
Posts: 2549
Joined: 8/9/2007
From: California
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Consecrated2God
quote:
How long is transitional? That may be an important thing to define within this discussion.
That would probably vary. Time to get a new job in the case of a lost one, or to re-train in the case of underemployment, or to get a fledgling business on its feet. My parents had a great home business going and it went south, and they've spent the last few years building a new one. It's starting to boom and they anticipate going off food stamps soon. They are too old to have anymore kids at this point, so they technically aren't a good fit for this discussion since my mom will probably not be getting pregnant at the age of 52. In their case it was a few years on food stamps while they built their business up.
No offense to your parents, but I've always believed that if a person or a group of people is trying to have their own business, and it's not flying, then they need to humble themselves and be an employee to an employer just like most people have to do.
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"We basically use what I have seen referred to as "get off your butt" parenting. It employs more interaction, more redirection, more prevention, and usually less spanking."
-Mrs. Wifey
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/8/2008 6:09:57 PM
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Consecrated2God
Posts: 4924
Joined: 4/4/2005
From: Formerly Jesus Land
Status: online
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Oh, I agree, trust me, but my parents business is a definite winner. They just needed to expand it from Dad's hobby to a huge business. It took him time to get rid of his inventory as a bookseller after his business tanked, build new presses so he could expand what he could do, and advertise his book binding business. Here's what they do: Leonardsbooks.com He does a fabulous job and their income has increased five-fold in the past year. The only reason they aren't off food stamps yet is because their county was declared a disaster area from floods earlier this year, and they aren't reviewing income changes until January.
I just recently blogged about their business HERE.
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<--Plantation house in Louisiana
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/8/2008 8:26:01 PM
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Memaw.
Posts: 2454
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Sunflower State
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Consecrated2God
Sure, but like I said earlier, babies can cost very little. A toddler eats hardly anything.
This is true, but what about the state medical that usually comes with foodstamps?
If one can not afford the prenatal visits out of their pocket (I am presuming they have no insurance because they have no job) (and the birth/hospital stay/midwife/home birth) then why would they continue getting pregnant and allow the state to pay for the births?
I fully agree with the majority here in that I too have no issue with those who need temporary help (been there done that), but assistance is only supposed to be that, assistance...not a way of life.
I personally know individuals who get foodstamps and then sell them at 50 cents on the dollar so they can buy cigarettes, beer and even drugs.
They do not (will not) work, their children are doing without and they can hardly wait for the first of the month to get their foodstamps so they can load back up on smokes and all that.
Their children are their income.
_____________________________
"Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction.
Every generation has to learn how to protect and defend it, or it's gone
and gone for a long, long time."
Ronald Reagan
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/8/2008 9:00:45 PM
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Consecrated2God
Posts: 4924
Joined: 4/4/2005
From: Formerly Jesus Land
Status: online
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quote:
This is true, but what about the state medical that usually comes with foodstamps?
If one can not afford the prenatal visits out of their pocket (I am presuming they have no insurance because they have no job) (and the birth/hospital stay/midwife/home birth) then why would they continue getting pregnant and allow the state to pay for the births?
State Medical Insurance doesn't come with foodstamps, you have to apply separately. It's very different from state to state. Also, I'm pretty sure you can't use it for home births--at least you couldn't in the states where I've lived. And just because a person is on foodstamps doesn't mean they have no job--it's usually because they are underemployed. A lot of places (like Walmart) offer medical insurance at really good rates.
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<--Plantation house in Louisiana
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/8/2008 9:36:32 PM
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landabee
Posts: 2868
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Central Florida
Status: offline
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quote:
This is true, but what about the state medical that usually comes with foodstamps?
If a family qualifies for foodstamps, they most likely qualify for medicaid for minor children if there is no insurance covered by unemployed or underemployed parents.
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personally know individuals who get foodstamps and then sell them at 50 cents on the dollar so they can buy cigarettes, beer and even drugs.
They do not (will not) work, their children are doing without and they can hardly wait for the first of the month to get their foodstamps so they can load back up on smokes and all that.
Their children are their income.
I have known PERSONALLY non-Christian parents that have/do that.
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Sure, but like I said earlier, babies can cost very little. A toddler eats hardly anything.
Although I chose to breast feed, and it seems to be a more popular choice, I think it is a mistake to think that the majority of mothers choose to nourish their infants by breast. Formula is expensive.
Also food costs aren't the only expenses incurred with a new child.
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Also, I'm pretty sure you can't use it for home births--at least you couldn't in the states where I've lived. And just because a person is on foodstamps doesn't mean they have no job--it's usually because they are underemployed. A lot of places (like Walmart) offer medical insurance at really good rates.
I think we have to be careful not to consider the general population outside of this website to have the same tendencies and rearing atttitudes/choices that seem to be the norm on this site.
Many secular and Christian families choose to birth in hospitals. (Gasp!)
Many secular and Christian families choose to formula feed. (Gasp!)
Both of those cost money.
Just pointing that out.
Regarding getting a business off of the ground: My uncle took about two years to see a profit on his business. In the meantime, he worked enough hours for a grocery chain to keep his family clothed, housed, fed and insured.
_____________________________
"Sound theology discourages ignorance instead of promoting it." ~ CourdeLeon
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