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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/9/2008 9:44:32 AM
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macokjc
Posts: 256
Joined: 2/24/2008
Status: online
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quote:
I'm not sure that I agree God is always in control of conception because of free will. Isn't it just as possible for man to step outside of God's perfect will and conceive a child when they shouldn't? But that's something I'm unsure of.
This was debated on page 2 or 3 - and still think it's relevant. Babies are made because of sex. I strongly believe that it is a miracle of life, but it is also a scientific process that God created. I don't think that just because God has given two people the ability to have sex that he really desires them to make a baby.
OneOfHisJewels: Apparently it got heated after I went to bed. You know, right now my friend is a foster parent to a little baby that was this mom's 6th child. She has 6 children and is not a fit parent. (back to the whole sex thing) I don't think there is a magic number that entitles one to be part of this debate - and I think you are very much valued here. And besides, back to the original issue, you do pay taxes, and public support is a large part of the question.
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/9/2008 10:08:09 AM
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Memaw.
Posts: 2454
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Sunflower State
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*Incoming rant* 
There have been some things said here that really sound self righteous IMO.
For starters, age has NO bearing on wisdom, I am 46 yrs old, gave birth to 3 children, lost 4, I have 2 step children and 3 grandchildren.
That does not make me wiser, smarter or better than anyone who ONLY has 2 children.
And it does not make me any less than someone who has given birth to 6.
One of my grandchildren was born with Trisomy 21 (Downs' Syndrome).
Does that make me any more experienced with all children with it?
NO, it makes me more knowledgeable about HER and HER problems.
My son is in prison, does that make me the authority on Moms with Sons behind bars?
NO, it makes me knowledgeable about HIS situation and OUR situation.
To think that one MUST have a passel of kids to be able to speak on this topic is just plain old pride in my book and that (Biblically) is sin.
*Rant is now concluded* 
_____________________________
"Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction.
Every generation has to learn how to protect and defend it, or it's gone
and gone for a long, long time."
Ronald Reagan
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/9/2008 10:58:07 AM
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stellaluna
Posts: 4227
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Memrie88
His:
Are you sasying that some conceptions are outside of His will?
I will. I don't think anyone conceiving a child outside of marriage is in the will of God.
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Who should be allowed to attend church?
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/9/2008 11:47:27 AM
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kohls356
Posts: 361
Joined: 8/22/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stellaluna
quote:
ORIGINAL: Memrie88
His:
Are you sasying that some conceptions are outside of His will?
I will. I don't think anyone conceiving a child outside of marriage is in the will of God.
I agree as well and we can be outside the will of God any many areas of our life so I am not sure why children would be different.
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/9/2008 12:22:00 PM
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Consecrated2God
Posts: 4928
Joined: 4/4/2005
From: Formerly Jesus Land
Status: online
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Just curious--would any of you support legislation that would mandate that people on food stamps use birth control? Why or why not?
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<--Plantation house in Louisiana
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/9/2008 12:34:06 PM
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Mrs.X
Posts: 2933
Joined: 7/7/2005
From: Newberg, OR
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Lisa, I think most of these folks in here are fairly conservative and believe in small government, so I think for most of them the answer would be no.
OFHJ, I have to say that even though you don't have children yourself, I agree that you do have common sense and your not having any children yet has nothing to do with that or this topic.
HisLittleOne, I think that's you with the kitten for an avatar. A few pages back you said you wish you could find a scripture to back up what you were saying.....Galatians 2 Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ. 3 For if any one thinks he is something, when he is nothing, he deceives himself. 4 But let each one test his own work, and then his reason to boast will be in himself alone and not in his neighbor. 5 For each man will have to bear his own load.
A load is something that a person can carry on his own, a burden is something he cannot carry on his own. We should help those with burdens that are too big to carry. I believe what you and other posters in this thread are trying to say is that you have no problem with your tax dollars going to someone who has a burden and also to someone who is trying to make their burden into a load. You do have a problem when people with loads take assistance and when people have burdens and aren't trying to turn their burden into a load. OK, that was pretty wordy, sorry.
_____________________________
-Stina
From Sweet Grass to the Packin' House
A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger. -Proverbs 15:1
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/9/2008 12:39:41 PM
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Consecrated2God
Posts: 4928
Joined: 4/4/2005
From: Formerly Jesus Land
Status: online
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quote:
Lisa, I think most of these folks in here are fairly conservative and believe in small government, so I think for most of them the answer would be no.
I hope so. It would be a slippery slope if we started telling other people when they could or could not have children.
_____________________________
<--Plantation house in Louisiana
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/9/2008 12:41:05 PM
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OneOfHisJewels
Posts: 2549
Joined: 8/9/2007
From: California
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Excellent post, Christina.......and thank you..
Upthread you mentioned being on food stamps...for YOU I do not begrudge that...your family has been working hard to better yourselves as you are able...your husband is working hard...you are nurturing your boys.....you didn't have them for the sake of getting the food stamps....people like you are the people I think they should be for.
_____________________________
"We basically use what I have seen referred to as "get off your butt" parenting. It employs more interaction, more redirection, more prevention, and usually less spanking."
-Mrs. Wifey
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/9/2008 12:43:54 PM
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OneOfHisJewels
Posts: 2549
Joined: 8/9/2007
From: California
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Consecrated2God
Just curious--would any of you support legislation that would mandate that people on food stamps use birth control? Why or why not?
Absolutely not, for the reason you just said...a slippery slope...However, I do think welfare should do more to encourage unmarried women to stop having babies, and perhaps be told that their benefits will stop at X number of children unless they are married.
Excellent post, peculiar lady. Also, even if your family did take benefits (and I know you said you didn't) I wouldn't begrudge it to you because your husband works hard for the very government that provides those benefits...it's not the fault of military members that they are underpaid...
I really don't have a problem with a family where the dad works hard and doesn't make enough getting benefits....or even necessarily having another baby if they have their eyes on bettering themselves in the future....it's when the benefits are used as an excuse not to have a job that I have a problem with...
< Message edited by OneOfHisJewels -- 9/9/2008 1:02:00 PM >
_____________________________
"We basically use what I have seen referred to as "get off your butt" parenting. It employs more interaction, more redirection, more prevention, and usually less spanking."
-Mrs. Wifey
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/9/2008 12:46:09 PM
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kohls356
Posts: 361
Joined: 8/22/2007
Status: offline
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No I would not support people having to be on bc if receiving assistance. I would hope that they would use the sense God gave them though and see that it is not the best situation to be in to have more children at that time.
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/9/2008 12:46:58 PM
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landabee
Posts: 2868
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Central Florida
Status: offline
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quote:
A load is something that a person can carry on his own, a burden is something he cannot carry on his own. We should help those with burdens that are too big to carry. I believe what you and other posters in this thread are trying to say is that you have no problem with your tax dollars going to someone who has a burden and also to someone who is trying to make their burden into a load. You do have a problem when people with loads take assistance and when people have burdens and aren't trying to turn their burden into a load. OK, that was pretty wordy, sorry.
I like this.
quote:
In the example of a middle school girl getting pregnant, would she have conceived if God didn't make it happen? (i.e. the conception part not the sex part)
Regarding Free Will---- God allows much that may not be His best plan for us. He allows us to make poor choices. He even allows us to forego seeking wisdom. He allows us free will.
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"Sound theology discourages ignorance instead of promoting it." ~ CourdeLeon
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/9/2008 12:48:10 PM
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Sideways
Posts: 3629
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Consecrated2God
Just curious--would any of you support legislation that would mandate that people on food stamps use birth control? Why or why not?
Sort of a moot point because it's unenforceable. No way to prove another child wasn't conceived despite the BC.
Certainly I believe in conditions for welfare, though. Any adult receiving must prove that they are looking for work, educating themselves for a better job or completely unable to do any kind of work. I also believe in a time limit for receiving welfare, even for those who've met the above conditions.
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This warranty does not include shark bites, bear attacks and children under five.
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/9/2008 12:48:15 PM
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Consecrated2God
Posts: 4928
Joined: 4/4/2005
From: Formerly Jesus Land
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: OneOfHisJewels
quote:
ORIGINAL: Consecrated2God
Just curious--would any of you support legislation that would mandate that people on food stamps use birth control? Why or why not?
Absolutely not, for the reason you just said...a slippery slope...However, I do think welfare should do more to encourage unmarried women to stop having babies, and perhaps be told that their benefits will stop at X number of children unless they are married.
I agree with you. I also think they should do more to help families develop a plan to be self-sufficeint. I've seen social workers that seemed to feel their job was to get you on as many programs as possible, and others who seem to think their job is to make you feel like scum, but I don't think I met a single one that was interested in listening to long term plans and goals for success.
_____________________________
<--Plantation house in Louisiana
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/9/2008 12:48:34 PM
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Hislittleone
Posts: 625
Joined: 7/13/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mrs.X
Lisa, I think most of these folks in here are fairly conservative and believe in small government, so I think for most of them the answer would be no.
OFHJ, I have to say that even though you don't have children yourself, I agree that you do have common sense and your not having any children yet has nothing to do with that or this topic.
HisLittleOne, I think that's you with the kitten for an avatar. A few pages back you said you wish you could find a scripture to back up what you were saying.....Galatians 2 Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ. 3 For if any one thinks he is something, when he is nothing, he deceives himself. 4 But let each one test his own work, and then his reason to boast will be in himself alone and not in his neighbor. 5 For each man will have to bear his own load.
A load is something that a person can carry on his own, a burden is something he cannot carry on his own. We should help those with burdens that are too big to carry. I believe what you and other posters in this thread are trying to say is that you have no problem with your tax dollars going to someone who has a burden and also to someone who is trying to make their burden into a load. You do have a problem when people with loads take assistance and when people have burdens and aren't trying to turn their burden into a load. OK, that was pretty wordy, sorry.
Yep, it's me with the kitten. But I don't remember asking for scripture about anything in this thread until my last post about God being the author of life versus babies being a result of human actions. Could be wrong about that though. Didn't get much sleep so not thinking extremely clearly today. 
And what you said made perfect sense. Thanks for sharing that scripture.
I wouldn't support government requiring anyone to use birth control. That's a personal choice and no one should be forced into using it or not. I would offer my advice on the matter if asked. And my advice would be to wait until you can pay for the pregnancy and birth plus subsequent expenses.
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/9/2008 12:51:12 PM
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kohls356
Posts: 361
Joined: 8/22/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Hislittleone
In the example of a middle school girl getting pregnant, would she have conceived if God didn't make it happen? (i.e. the conception part not the sex part)
Is there any scripture that can be applied to this argument either way?
I believe that God is the author of life in that He created our bodies to work a specific way in order to conceive. I really don't believe that He literally opens and closes the womb each and every time sex happens.
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/9/2008 1:01:00 PM
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stellaluna
Posts: 4227
Joined: 4/11/2005
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There's a difference in God allowing something to happen and God making something happen.
And no, I would not support forced birth control for people on government assistance. I do, however, understand the arguments for forced sterilization for those who abuse the system. (California, I think, has considered this. And that's sort of an "is the family too big" argument in itself.)
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