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RE: When is a family too big. - 8/29/2008 8:33:04 AM
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CoeurdeLeon
Posts: 9501
Joined: 9/4/2005
From: Inside my head
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Homegrownkids
quote:
But what if, intead of, "She should have used birth control and not had all those children" we said "She needs an attitude change" and prayed for her?
If she had used bc, those children would not exist. Saying she should have is saying they should not exist. However, regardless of her attitude, God made each one of them, gave them a loving father, and there is still the possibility that He can change that woman's heart. It may be that those 8 children will be part of what changes her heart, who knows?
I agree, Sometimes we don't see the "big picture" of what God might be doing in someone's life. Sometimes, we don't even consider it!! God has put us all into families to begin with, each of us have different walks in life and have come from different back grounds. It doesn't mean that people won't change.
quote:
YOUR (not anyone in particular) family is too big when I have to support it whether you have 1 child or 10.
Statements like this just seem so harsh to me, and I don't mean this statement in particular, there were several similar statements throughout. There is a difference between supporting a family and helping them.
Yeah, well. I find statements like this to be rude, insulting and smug considering the fact that the responsible citizens don't have a choice. We have to support people who won't support themselves.
quote:
This is for you..... THANK YOU!!!!! For being a responsible citizen! It is very much appreciated.
NO ONE here is against helping people. Being forced to support them, yep. Helping them through a temporary (read months NOT years) crisis or time of need, no.
_____________________________
This morning I was awakened by the sound of purple
colliding with the fragrance of laughter.
Eutychus
10.13.08
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RE: When is a family too big. - 8/29/2008 8:35:14 AM
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bluestone
Posts: 2934
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Some seem to equate a child not being concieved with killing a child.
This is not truthful, and it only inforces the idea of having more children than you can provide for.
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I need Christ. Not something that resembles Christ.
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RE: When is a family too big. - 8/29/2008 8:39:03 AM
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Sideways
Posts: 3627
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bluestone
Some seem to equate a child not being concieved with killing a child.
I wonder about that, too. Do QFers equate preventing conception with killing a child? I don't think so, but sometimes the arguments made kinda sound that way. But please correct us if we're wrong.
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RE: When is a family too big. - 8/29/2008 8:43:58 AM
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Sideways
Posts: 3627
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 3cappuccinosmom
If you say someone has too many kids, that means that you think she shouldn't have had at least some of those kids, which means that however many you think are "too many" shouldn't have been born. 
Laura answered this well, I think. The past is the past, and there's nothing we can do about that. What frustrates some folks is when a family is at the point where the children are not being adequately cared for, and they still continue to have more.
Once a child is conceived, that's it, you deal the situation as best you can, and most Christians don't mind helping out their neighbor, but when the same scenario is replayed over and over again, that does start to upset people.
So, no, even if a family is currently in a situation where they can't care for their kids, it does not mean we're saying that they shouldn't have had the kids they have; we're saying they should hold off on further children until their situation changes.
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This warranty does not include shark bites, bear attacks and children under five.
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RE: When is a family too big. - 8/29/2008 8:47:47 AM
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WalkingwithHim2
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My 16 year old cousin just became a daddy...neither him nor his friend have a job, an education to get a good paying job, or the know how to care for this special needs child and are on public aid. This little boy is a blessing in so many ways yet at the same time his parents NEED to be using birth control so that they don't have another child they personally cannot support.
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Jesus saves the soul not necessarily the brain
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RE: When is a family too big. - 8/29/2008 8:53:10 AM
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bluestone
Posts: 2934
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And when it is a family that thinks it is their duty to keep having children, and can't care for them, the problem becomes a hindrance for all of us.
iI think quite a few of these folks need to read
"Atlas Shrugged", a novel by Ayn Rand. Good motivation for pulling your own weight in society.
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RE: When is a family too big. - 8/29/2008 9:04:01 AM
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SurpassingPeace
Posts: 108
Joined: 11/21/2007
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quote:
But what if, intead of, "She should have used birth control and not had all those children" we said "She needs an attitude change" and prayed for her?
If she had used bc, those children would not exist. Saying she should have is saying they should not exist. However, regardless of her attitude, God made each one of them, gave them a loving father, and there is still the possibility that He can change that woman's heart. It may be that those 8 children will be part of what changes her heart, who knows?
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Oh my goodness, I never said these children shouldn't exist. I know these children. I love these children. I know our God is greater than all things and I have no doubt He will use these children in His plans. It still breaks my heart to see a very loving man walk around like a zombie all the time (she is a sahm but it is his "job" to take care of the children before he goes to work and after he comes home, she has told me this herself). It broke my hurt to see a small child trying desperately to calm the cries of an infant while mom ignored the whole thing. It is also sad to see her teenagers going down really bad paths since no one in their home is paying much attention. The youth leaders at church are desperately trying to come along side them but it is really hard when it is not the same at home. I think dad tries but he is overwhelmed.
I do pray for her heart and the entire family. I know God can change anything. He changed me and that was a 180 degree turn around. Our God is great. However, I can't bring myself to smile and be happy when I see another baby coming into the current situation.
Again, I did not and will not say these children should not have been born.
Karen
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RE: When is a family too big. - 8/29/2008 9:28:37 AM
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CoeurdeLeon
Posts: 9501
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For those who are "trusting God with their fertility" and think it's okay to accept gov't assistance as a way of life, how do you feel about unbelievers who are also churning out kids and living off the gov't? Is God in charge of their fertility, too, or are their children a natural result of their behavior (sex)? Do you think they ought to keep doing what they're doing whether they can provide for those children in any way or do you think they maybe oughta stop having kids? Is God providing for them through gov't assistance?
I really can see no difference other than attributing the kids and the help as coming from God.
_____________________________
This morning I was awakened by the sound of purple
colliding with the fragrance of laughter.
Eutychus
10.13.08
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RE: When is a family too big. - 8/29/2008 9:59:02 AM
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Consecrated2God
Posts: 4924
Joined: 4/4/2005
From: Formerly Jesus Land
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quote:
When a married couple knows for a fact up-front that they personally do not have the means (financially, spiritually, physically, mentally or psychologically) to properly care for/raise children or additional children...the decision should be made not to have any or not to have any more.
How would you advise a family to put this in practice if they believe that life begins at conception (as opposed to implantation) and therefore do not believe in using forms of birth control that prevents implantation of a fertilizeed egg? Birth control pills are out.
Many forms of birth control have raised moral and ethical questions. There are barrier methods still (I understand there is still debate over them, too, but they don't act as an abortifacent in any way) but they aren't always effective either. NFP doesn't always work if you don't know what you're doing.
IF hormonal birth control is not an option for the couple who is in a bad financial situation, there is still a possibility they may get pregnant again in that situation. Maybe even more than once.
Financial situations can improve. A couple in their twenties may not be financially successful for various reasons. Starting out in life, pulling yourself up by your bootstraps, working hard, going through school, trying to work your way out of poverty can be difficult. Permanant birth control for a young couple who is struggling isn't a good solution, either, because in five years or ten they may be more than able to afford more children.
We had a lot of children when we were very young and poor, and now we are doing fairly well. Just in time, too, since our children's appetites have all grown with them.  At least with a baby I can breastfeed and they don't cost much extra. These bigger kids eat a lot more now! They're also at the age when they want to be involved in a lot more and now we can afford to do that.
I want to go back to the question, When is a family too big. I think that's a personal decision, and there isn't a one-size-fits-all answer to it. For our family, we think six kids is a great number. If we had anymore we'd have to make a lot of changes. We'd have to level up, so to speak. They would no longer fit around our table and we'd have to get a big 12-passenger van, for starters. You can still buy a mini-van that seats eight.
Most food items come in packages of eight. It's a really handy number to shop for and to plan for. Our kids each share a bedroom with one sibling and they all sleep in bunkbeds. If we had one more child, we'd have to get another bed and find a place for it.
For us, six kids is the perfect sized family. Gas is expensive these days, and to buy a bigger van would be more than we could afford right now, our kitchen is too small for a longer table anyway, and we don't want to have to buy two of everything to feed our kids.
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<--Plantation house in Louisiana
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RE: When is a family too big. - 8/29/2008 10:03:12 AM
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phosadaud
Posts: 10522
Joined: 9/19/2005
From: Washington State
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I was thinking about this on my run this morning and the Lioness made the perfect segue.
When a couple have sex outside of marriage and a child results, we do not say they made the right decision because a child resulted. No, we say, as Scripture says, that they sinned in their actions and a child resulted. Now, once the child is conceived, we love that child to pieces, we try to build that family up in the Lord. That doesn't take away from the fact that the parents made a wrong decision(s). That doesn't mean we blame the child and "wish they'd never been born". No. What's done is done. Now we deal with the results and we pray that maybe this is what will get the parents to get right with God and with each other. We pray the child grows to know the Lord. We love them to pieces.
The same is true here.
_____________________________
~Kristin~
Resume Quotations: "Reason for leaving last job: The owner gave new meaning to the word 'paranoia.' I prefer to elaborate privately."
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RE: When is a family too big. - 8/29/2008 10:11:20 AM
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pbaribeault
Posts: 1026
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I think it's OK for families of any faith to accept any support that their society-approved government has decided to distribute. I feel fine about them. I don't think that they ought to stop having kids, so long as they are loving them and parenting them reasonably well and making sure that their various sources of income (including government programs) cover the children's basic needs. And they have a general idea that they will probably be capable of continuing to do so.
(I do, however, think that they should not lie in order to qualify programs, or have sex when they are unmarried.)
I also think that derogatory language like "churning out kids" is much more likely to ruin one's witness than accepting legitimate government support is.
Also, I find that God often provides financially for people through other people's contributions... I can't remember the last time He just made money actually appear by miracle. Why would having a government (that is appointed and approved by the people) acting as an intermediary (collecting & distributing) make it any less of God's provision?
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RE: When is a family too big. - 8/29/2008 10:21:08 AM
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landabee
Posts: 2868
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Central Florida
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Consecrated2God
quote:
When a married couple knows for a fact up-front that they personally do not have the means (financially, spiritually, physically, mentally or psychologically) to properly care for/raise children or additional children...the decision should be made not to have any or not to have any more.
quote:
How would you advise a family to put this in practice if they believe that life begins at conception (as opposed to implantation) and therefore do not believe in using forms of birth control that prevents implantation of a fertilizeed egg? Birth control pills are out.
Abstinence, NFP, tubal ligation, vasectomy, condoms with foams and jellies.
quote:
Many forms of birth control have raised moral and ethical questions. There are barrier methods still (I understand there is still debate over them, too, but they don't act as an abortifacent in any way) but they aren't always effective either. NFP doesn't always work if you don't know what you're doing.
NFP doesn't always work. But it is more responsible than nothing. Much more responsible than nothing. Most that diligently practice NFP do lower the number of children conceived.
quote:
IF hormonal birth control is not an option for the couple who is in a bad financial situation, there is still a possibility they may get pregnant again in that situation. Maybe even more than once.
True. There is abstinence and barrier methods.
quote:
Financial situations can improve. A couple in their twenties may not be financially successful for various reasons. Starting out in life, pulling yourself up by your bootstraps, working hard, going through school, trying to work your way out of poverty can be difficult. Permanant birth control for a young couple who is struggling isn't a good solution, either, because in five years or ten they may be more than able to afford more children.
We had a lot of children when we were very young and poor, and now we are doing fairly well. Just in time, too, since our children's appetites have all grown with them. At least with a baby I can breastfeed and they don't cost much extra. These bigger kids eat a lot more now! They're also at the age when they want to be involved in a lot more and now we can afford to do that.
Lisa, you and your husband parent your children. Your family size is your business. You and your husband are frugal. You grow food, you sew and you do other things to provide for them. You are there for them.
Your family and those like yours are not examples that are being discussed and/or discredited.
quote:
I want to go back to the question, When is a family too big. I think that's a personal decision, and there isn't a one-size-fits-all answer to it. For our family, we think six kids is a great number. If we had anymore we'd have to make a lot of changes. We'd have to level up, so to speak. They would no longer fit around our table and we'd have to get a big 12-passenger van, for starters. You can still buy a mini-van that seats eight.
Right. There is no one size fits all. I don't think anyone here has said there was.
quote:
Most food items come in packages of eight. It's a really handy number to shop for and to plan for. Our kids each share a bedroom with one sibling and they all sleep in bunkbeds. If we had one more child, we'd have to get another bed and find a place for it.
For us, six kids is the perfect sized family. Gas is expensive these days, and to buy a bigger van would be more than we could afford right now, our kitchen is too small for a longer table anyway, and we don't want to have to buy two of everything to feed our kids.
Seems to me that you and your husband are considering how to care for the children you have. Kudos to you both for being responsible.
That is all any one is proposing over those that continually procreate without responsibility.
_____________________________
"Sound theology discourages ignorance instead of promoting it." ~ CourdeLeon
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RE: When is a family too big. - 8/29/2008 10:24:52 AM
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zoebob
Posts: 8780
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: land of limbo
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Also, contrary to popular opinion, you cannot stay on government assistance forever. Once your kids are of school age they limit how long you can stay on it. You at least need to start weaning yourself off of it after 6 months...or less in some circumstances. I am glad that our government still appreciates the value of letting 1 parent stay home with preschool age children.
Again, I don't think it's right to deliberately have children for the sole purpose of increasing or extending benefits.
ETA: Also, most QF families do have one parent that works and pays taxes. If they don't when the kids are young they have and will at some time pay into the system.
For a family that has gone through a tragic life changing event, a few months is not necessarily enough time to totally change lifestyle. Do you think it is healthy or good for the children to have to suddenly spend most of their waking hours with other people so mom can work 2 jobs or work and go to school when they have suddenly lost dad and are used to having mom around all day?
< Message edited by zoebob -- 8/29/2008 10:34:18 AM >
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L-R: DD1, Ellies DS2, DD2, Ellies DS1
L-R: Ellies DD1, Ellies DD2, DS, Ellies DS3
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RE: When is a family too big. - 8/29/2008 10:33:26 AM
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landabee
Posts: 2868
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Central Florida
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CoeurdeLeon
For those who are "trusting God with their fertility" and think it's okay to accept gov't assistance as a way of life, how do you feel about unbelievers who are also churning out kids and living off the gov't? Is God in charge of their fertility, too, or are their children a natural result of their behavior (sex)? Do you think they ought to keep doing what they're doing whether they can provide for those children in any way or do you think they maybe oughta stop having kids? Is God providing for them through gov't assistance?
I really can see no difference other than attributing the kids and the help as coming from God.
Just reposting this from Lionness. I'm curious, too.
_____________________________
"Sound theology discourages ignorance instead of promoting it." ~ CourdeLeon
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RE: When is a family too big. - 8/29/2008 10:58:58 AM
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Sideways
Posts: 3627
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: zoebob
For a family that has gone through a tragic life changing event, a few months is not necessarily enough time to totally change lifestyle. Do you think it is healthy or good for the children to have to suddenly spend most of their waking hours with other people so mom can work 2 jobs or work and go to school when they have suddenly lost dad and are used to having mom around all day?
That's tricky. I think part of being responsible parents is having some sort of plan in place for such an event. Life insurance, moving in with grandparents, something that will make such a difficult time as easy as possible.
And if dad (or mom) dies, the child probably won't get a SAH parent. That's just a cold hard reality of death. How long should society pay for a parent to stay at home after one parent has died? I dunno.
If my husband dies, we have a life insurance for 350K, plus I could move in with my parents if I wanted to (but I'd really rather avoid that). I'd probably stay home for a little while, but eventually I'd have to go back to work (I was a mechanical engineer less then 2 years ago), and my kids would be cared for by someone else.
It's tragic, but that's just reality.
_____________________________
This warranty does not include shark bites, bear attacks and children under five.
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RE: When is a family too big. - 8/29/2008 10:59:56 AM
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SurpassingPeace
Posts: 108
Joined: 11/21/2007
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I really have been thinking about this thread. My precious daughter is teething and I am a bit sleep deprived so maybe that is contributing to my contemplative mood.
I really don't know how I feel about bc. For me, it is not a black and white issue. I probably don't think about it alot right now because dh and I want to have another baby. What I do know is it breaks my heart to see children brought into families that they are not loved, cared for, fed properly, or where there is abuse. I have a special empathy for children and it stops me in my tracks whenever I see this. God is so good and He will use many of these children for good. I know that but knowing that does not stop the feelings of injustice that are deep in my gut.
I was the child of an emotional detached mother that was abusive verbally and physically. I carry the scars that I know many of these children will some day carry. I praise God because He has healed my heart and brought me so much peace. I believe He left many of scars because it gives me a compassion for children I would not have otherwise.
My feelings are not about all large families. I know many large families that provide for their children very well. Do they eat steak every night? No, but they eat. Do they have mom's undivided attention? No, but they know mom and dad love them unconditionally. You don't have to live in luxury to care for your children. Unforseen and tragic things can happen to finances and families that cause set backs. That is not what I am talking about. I am talking about an ongoing and persistent attitude or state in which you cannot care for you children.
I do not wish a single one of these children, from large or small families, out of existence. They are precious to God and to me. But my heart still hurts for a child that is brought into a family, again larger or small, in which they are not cared for in a loving, responsible manner.
That is from my heart,
Karen
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RE: When is a family too big. - 8/29/2008 11:08:33 AM
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Kat_D
Posts: 3112
Joined: 9/2/2005
From: Where We Shake, Rattle & Roll!
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quote:
Also, contrary to popular opinion, you cannot stay on government assistance forever. Once your kids are of school age they limit how long you can stay on it. You at least need to start weaning yourself off of it after 6 months...or less in some circumstances.
Oh, yeah they can and the part about school age isn't true.
When their kids are grown they simply take in all the grandkids their kids (who were brought up on Welfare) either can't afford or don't want/know how to raise... then they can pull Aid to Dependent Children plus Medi-Cal/Medicaid until they die.
I've worked in hospitals most of my life and have seen this scenario over and over and over again! I've also seen my tax dollars pay for the births and care of the 6th 7th & 8th babies/children of parents who have never worked a day in their lives and don't plan to. After seeing so much of that, I've got to admit it becomes sickening.
Oh, and btw, there are ways to scam the Welfare system and people do it every day.
_____________________________
~Kat
"...And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes...no more death, sorrow, nor crying."
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RE: When is a family too big. - 8/29/2008 1:13:43 PM
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3cappuccinosmom
Posts: 2504
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
That little child, should God have deemed might have been born to other parents.
Our God is bigger than that.
Of course.  But if that's so, then he's also bigger than their current situation.
quote:
For those who are "trusting God with their fertility" and think it's okay to accept gov't assistance as a way of life,
Well, firstly I don't believe that about welfare and haven't seen anyone here say that lifelong welfare is the way to go. I think the welfare system is a mess, and I would rather my dh just be able to bring home all the money he's worked so hard for.
quote:
how do you feel about unbelievers who are also churning out kids and living off the gov't? Is God in charge of their fertility, too, or are their children a natural result of their behavior (sex)?
I think they're behaving stupidly, but that every single one of those children concieved was created with a purpose by God and has the same potential and value as all of our well-loved and well-cared for children.
quote:
Do you think they ought to keep doing what they're doing whether they can provide for those children in any way or do you think they maybe oughta stop having kids?
I think they should get jobs, get married, and stop being sexually loose. Then it wouldn't be an issue.
I'm with y'all on the issue of playing the system. It burns me up seeing the young men in our neighborhood lounging around doing nothing whatsoever of value, rather being destructive to property, their families, and themselves.
Generations of people, even unbelievers, have had large families, worked hard all their lives, and when run upon hard times only taken assistance with great shame and embarassment. The problem is not how many children these people are having, but their heart attitudes towards work and responsibility.
quote:
Is God providing for them through gov't assistance?
Maybe, maybe it's just a matter of him sending rain and sun for the crops of the unrighteous as well as the righteous.
< Message edited by 3cappuccinosmom -- 8/29/2008 1:20:15 PM >
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Shameless Self Promotion~Christmas giveaway this week!
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RE: When is a family too big. - 8/29/2008 1:40:40 PM
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shadowspring
Posts: 1635
Joined: 5/27/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: pbaribeault
I think it's OK for families of any faith to accept any support that their society-approved government has decided to distribute. I feel fine about them. I don't think that they ought to stop having kids, so long as they are loving them and parenting them reasonably well and making sure that their various sources of income (including government programs) cover the children's basic needs. And they have a general idea that they will probably be capable of continuing to do so.
(I do, however, think that they should not lie in order to qualify programs, or have sex when they are unmarried.)
I also think that derogatory language like "churning out kids" is much more likely to ruin one's witness than accepting legitimate government support is.
Also, I find that God often provides financially for people through other people's contributions... I can't remember the last time He just made money actually appear by miracle. Why would having a government (that is appointed and approved by the people) acting as an intermediary (collecting & distributing) make it any less of God's provision?
Thank you pbari! I've never needed any help from the government but I totally agree with this point of view. I do not resent my tax money feeding children unfortunate enough to be cursed with fools for parents. I am proud that my tax money helps feed children with great parents who have fallen on hard times. 
quote:
The problem is not how many children these people are having, but their heart attitudes towards work and responsibility.
Exactly, 3capps! It is a tragedy, and the chlidren are the ones suffering for it. The poor pitiful taxpayer hardly has any room to complain, imho. The kids you resent helping provide for, they are the ones deserving of pity!
It would be different if we were complaining about being responsible for someone else's pet, but we are talking human people here.
< Message edited by shadowspring -- 8/29/2008 1:48:34 PM >
_____________________________
"Blessed is the man...whose delight is in the law of the Lord, and in His law meditates day and night. He will be like a tree planted by rivers of water..." from Psalm 1
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RE: When is a family too big. - 8/29/2008 1:51:29 PM
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LaurainAL
Posts: 1300
Joined: 8/13/2005
Status: offline
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I wonder if anyone is reading the several posts that state that the children are not to blame? Because, you know, there are a few.
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Life Trumps Choice
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RE: When is a family too big. - 8/29/2008 1:55:05 PM
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bluestone
Posts: 2934
Joined: 2/25/2008
From: United States of America
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: shadowspring
Exactly, 3capps! It is a tragedy, and the chlidren are the ones suffering for it. The poor pitiful taxpayer hardly has any room to complain, imho. The kids you resent helping provide for, they are the ones deserving of pity!
It would be different if we were complaining about being responsible for someone else's pet, but we are talking human people here.
And if the parents did not see the wife's body as some sort of vending machine, children would be spaced out with planning. Using common sense in breeding is not difficult.
And remember the taxpayer is NOT just keeping up someone else's kids...we are keeping up their parents, too.
I would certainly help a starving pet. NOT the people foolish enough to get a dog and not take care of it.
Freeloaders begat freeloaders.
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