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RE: Ray Boltz - GAY?... - 9/15/2008 5:07:42 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6628
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TorchHeart
....Out-right condeming this man...
The man condemned himself. It's no different than a professing believer announcing that he has chosen to be a serial killer because he was just made that way and that he is now free and at peace with the decision.
TorchHeat, my baby boy is the same age as you and, since he was at least 12 years old, he's known the difference between someone who stumbles and sins but confesses and repents and a person that abandons a PRETENSE of righteousness to immerse himself in an abomination to God.
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RE: Ray Boltz - GAY?... - 9/15/2008 5:11:28 PM
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TorchHeart
Posts: 1497
Joined: 6/4/2008
From: One of the coldest places on Earth
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: TorchHeart
quote:
but we can't agree to disagree with the truth of the Gospel.
No one is disagreeing with the Truth of the Gospel.
But you seem to be offended that some of us think the Gospel actually changes people that it saves and makes them miserable when they choose sin. Scripture calls such false sons.
The Gospel doesn't do that; fellow Christians do that.
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RE: Ray Boltz - GAY?... - 9/15/2008 5:11:47 PM
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crankius
Posts: 4504
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TorchHeart
quote:
but we can't agree to disagree with the truth of the Gospel.
No one is disagreeing with the Truth of the Gospel.
This post you made earlier conflicts with the truth of the Gospel.
quote:
I for one am proud of Ray Boltz.
It takes guts for someone to come out and admit that they're a sinner when they're as prominent as he is among a group of people who (despite the person they claim to emulate) do not often forgive sinners that well, and gladly look at superficial issues rather than the thing Christ would want them to focus on.
Whatever you think of his lifestyle, his music has probably helped to guide a number of people to Christ, or even deepen their relationship with Him. I hope God looks at his ministry first before he looks at who the guy slept with.
1. Instead of being proud of our brother in his sin, we should be quick to help our brother repent of his sin, recognizing that God is faithful to forgive us of our sins.
2. We are not justified in our own works (our music or our ministry), but rather in the work of Christ upon the cross and His righteousness.
3. Choosing to live and embrace a pattern of grievous sin is not simply a "superficial" issue, but rather greatly conflicts with the Gospel.
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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RE: Ray Boltz - GAY?... - 9/15/2008 5:15:28 PM
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TorchHeart
Posts: 1497
Joined: 6/4/2008
From: One of the coldest places on Earth
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quote:
This post you made earlier conflicts with the truth of the Gospel.
No it doesn't.
quote:
1. Instead of being proud of our brother in his sin, we should be quick to help our brother repent of his sin, recognizing that God is faithful to forgive us of our sins.
2. We are not justified in our own works (our music or our ministry), but rather in the work of Christ upon the cross and His righteousness.
3. Choosing to live and embrace a pattern of grievous sin is not simply a "superficial" issue, but rather greatly conflicts with the Gospel.
So you can't be justified by your works; just condemned by them, huh?
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RE: Ray Boltz - GAY?... - 9/15/2008 5:17:22 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6628
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TorchHeart
Did you brainwash him, yourself, or did you let someone else lie to him about God?
He simply read and understood the Bible after he was saved and indwelt by God the Holy Spirit. Verses like the one I alluded to:
For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye ****s, and not sons.
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RE: Ray Boltz - GAY?... - 9/15/2008 5:18:43 PM
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TorchHeart
Posts: 1497
Joined: 6/4/2008
From: One of the coldest places on Earth
Status: online
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I openly apologize for the brainwashing comment, Jimbo. that was extremely poor of me, and was why I deleted it, right away. It was cheap, and you weren't deserving of that.
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RE: Ray Boltz - GAY?... - 9/15/2008 5:21:46 PM
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crankius
Posts: 4504
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
So you can't be justified by your works; just condemned by them, huh?
Acutally, yes, that is true. Anyone who seeks to be justified by his works will only heap more condemnation upon himself.
Here are some passages that are helpful for understanding this topic:
Romans 4:4-5 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness
Romans 3:20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.
Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. (ital added)
Romans 9:16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.
Hope this helps.
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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RE: Ray Boltz - GAY?... - 9/15/2008 5:28:44 PM
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TorchHeart
Posts: 1497
Joined: 6/4/2008
From: One of the coldest places on Earth
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: crankius
quote:
So you can't be justified by your works; just condemned by them, huh?
Acutally, yes, that is true. Anyone who seeks to be justified by his works will only heap more condemnation upon himself.
Here are some passages that are helpful for understanding this topic:
Romans 4:4-5 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness
Romans 3:20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.
Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. (ital added)
Romans 9:16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.
Hope this helps.
It doesn't really help. Sorry. God doesn't have any mercy, then?
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RE: Ray Boltz - GAY?... - 9/15/2008 5:32:53 PM
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TorchHeart
Posts: 1497
Joined: 6/4/2008
From: One of the coldest places on Earth
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: TorchHeart
Did you brainwash him, yourself, or did you let someone else lie to him about God?
He simply read and understood the Bible after he was saved and indwelt by God the Holy Spirit. Verses like the one I alluded to:
For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye ****s, and not sons.
Same here.
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RE: Ray Boltz - GAY?... - 9/15/2008 5:32:59 PM
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crankius
Posts: 4504
Joined: 4/12/2005
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Sending His only Son to die on a cross is absolute mercy. Do you disagree?
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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RE: Ray Boltz - GAY?... - 9/15/2008 5:38:17 PM
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TorchHeart
Posts: 1497
Joined: 6/4/2008
From: One of the coldest places on Earth
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quote:
ORIGINAL: crankius
Sending His only Son to die on a cross is absolute mercy. Do you disagree?
Not according to what you say above.
I believe that Christ dying on the cross is sign of His mercy, but what you quoted says differently to me.
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RE: Ray Boltz - GAY?... - 9/15/2008 5:45:33 PM
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crankius
Posts: 4504
Joined: 4/12/2005
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God showed His great mercy by sending His Son to die on a cross for us. It is through Christ that we are justified, and it is through Christ that we can have fellowship with our Creator. If you want to understand those passages more, I encourage you to read them in context.
I do pray that Ray Boltz holds to Christ at whatever cost to his lifestyle. It appears, however, that he is choosing his lifestyle over Christ.
It reminds me of this passage:
Mt 13:44 - Again, the kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field, which a man found and hid; and for joy over it he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field.
The treasure in Christ is worth far more than any worldly lifestyle.
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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RE: Ray Boltz - GAY?... - 9/15/2008 5:50:34 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6628
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TorchHeart
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: TorchHeart
Did you brainwash him, yourself, or did you let someone else lie to him about God?
He simply read and understood the Bible after he was saved and indwelt by God the Holy Spirit. Verses like the one I alluded to:
For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye ****s, and not sons.
Same here.
There was no need to reply if your apology was genuine... Nonetheless, why do you say you read and understand but none of the scripture I've quoted from the Bible, the one above included, has changed your mind about a man who wantonly spits on the cross like Boltz by embracing a lifestyle condemned both in the OT & NT?
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RE: Ray Boltz - GAY?... - 9/15/2008 6:02:03 PM
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bigboytenor
Posts: 517
Joined: 4/17/2007
From: Webb City, MO
Status: offline
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My wife had a uncle who was gay, died at the age of 35 due to AIDS related complications. He helped start two Metropolitan Community Church congregations, one in Texas and one in Missouri. Days before he died he looked at my mother-in-law and told her he had chosen the lifestyle. He had a deep desire for perverse sex. That's it. No excuses. Those were his words.
No one has the right to "condemn" Ray Boltz, but his actions and admission of his lifestyle have brought about that condemnation. Romans 8:1 tells us, "There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." The key is that you have to be in Christ first.
Jesus said, "Not everyone who says to me 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven." Just because he claimed to be a Christian all of those years doesn't mean he was. I thought I was saved as a young boy and then I was a drunk and a violent person until I really got saved. As others have stated, I'm not perfect (in the sense that I never sin) but I choose not to live there. I sin, am convicted, confess and repent.
"Faith without works is dead." That's what the book of James tells us. The good works and right living are the result of the change within a believer.
First John tells us that, "there will be those who will come out from us though they were never part of us."
_____________________________
Jesus said that in the last days there would be earthquakes, pestilence, distress of nations, famine, signs in the sky, wars and rumors of wars. Sound familiar? Are you ready?
Daryl
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RE: Ray Boltz - GAY?... - 9/15/2008 6:08:02 PM
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TorchHeart
Posts: 1497
Joined: 6/4/2008
From: One of the coldest places on Earth
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: TorchHeart
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: TorchHeart
Did you brainwash him, yourself, or did you let someone else lie to him about God?
He simply read and understood the Bible after he was saved and indwelt by God the Holy Spirit. Verses like the one I alluded to:
For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye ****s, and not sons.
Same here.
There was no need to reply if your apology was genuine... Nonetheless, why do you say you read and understand but none of the scripture I've quoted from the Bible, the one above included, has changed your mind about a man who wantonly spits on the cross like Boltz by embracing a lifestyle condemned both in the OT & NT?
Because I believe in Christ, and what He did for all of us. Just like you do.
And I will let Christ judge Mr. Boltz. I am a sinner. So I will not. TO me, its just that simple.
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RE: Ray Boltz - GAY?... - 9/15/2008 6:17:40 PM
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bigboytenor
Posts: 517
Joined: 4/17/2007
From: Webb City, MO
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TorchHeart
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: TorchHeart
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: TorchHeart
Did you brainwash him, yourself, or did you let someone else lie to him about God?
He simply read and understood the Bible after he was saved and indwelt by God the Holy Spirit. Verses like the one I alluded to:
For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye ****s, and not sons.
Same here.
There was no need to reply if your apology was genuine... Nonetheless, why do you say you read and understand but none of the scripture I've quoted from the Bible, the one above included, has changed your mind about a man who wantonly spits on the cross like Boltz by embracing a lifestyle condemned both in the OT & NT?
Because I believe in Christ, and what He did for all of us. Just like you do.
And I will let Christ judge Mr. Boltz. I am a sinner. So I will not. TO me, its just that simple.
You clearly don't understand scripture and are basing your opinion on what a person has told you rather than the Bible. We are told to hold one another accountable in scripture, not judging. We are told not to judge the world, but we are to hold fellow Christians to a biblical standard. Period.
_____________________________
Jesus said that in the last days there would be earthquakes, pestilence, distress of nations, famine, signs in the sky, wars and rumors of wars. Sound familiar? Are you ready?
Daryl
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RE: Ray Boltz - GAY?... - 9/15/2008 6:21:01 PM
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zoebob
Posts: 8783
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: land of limbo
Status: online
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As Christians we are perfectly free to judge Ray BOltz of this sin...as long as we are willing to hear that same judgement if we are in a habit of deliberately choosing a pattern of sin and saying it is not a sin. If we will hold ourselves to the same standard that we expect of him then we are free to hold him to that standard....that is what Jesus meant when he said "judge not lest ye be judged" We are to hold ourselves to the same standard we hold others to
_____________________________
L-R: DD1, Ellies DS2, DD2, Ellies DS1
L-R: Ellies DD1, Ellies DD2, DS, Ellies DS3
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RE: Ray Boltz - GAY?... - 9/15/2008 6:27:24 PM
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TorchHeart
Posts: 1497
Joined: 6/4/2008
From: One of the coldest places on Earth
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bigboytenor
quote:
ORIGINAL: TorchHeart
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: TorchHeart
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: TorchHeart
Did you brainwash him, yourself, or did you let someone else lie to him about God?
He simply read and understood the Bible after he was saved and indwelt by God the Holy Spirit. Verses like the one I alluded to:
For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye ****s, and not sons.
Same here.
There was no need to reply if your apology was genuine... Nonetheless, why do you say you read and understand but none of the scripture I've quoted from the Bible, the one above included, has changed your mind about a man who wantonly spits on the cross like Boltz by embracing a lifestyle condemned both in the OT & NT?
Because I believe in Christ, and what He did for all of us. Just like you do.
And I will let Christ judge Mr. Boltz. I am a sinner. So I will not. TO me, its just that simple.
You clearly don't understand scripture and are basing your opinion on what a person has told you rather than the Bible. We are told to hold one another accountable in scripture, not judging. We are told not to judge the world, but we are to hold fellow Christians to a biblical standard. Period.
Nope. I'm basing it on the Bible.
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RE: Ray Boltz - GAY?... - 9/15/2008 6:54:07 PM
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crankius
Posts: 4504
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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Torch,
The Corinthians church had a man who was in a sinful lifestyle among them. Rather than rebuke him in the Lord, they proudly kept him in their midst.
Paul clarified that this was the wrong approach.
He instructed them to confront the man and put him out if he would not repent:
quote:
1 Corinthians 5: 1-7
It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that does not occur even among pagans: A man has his father's wife. And you are proud! Shouldn't you rather have been filled with grief and have put out of your fellowship the man who did this? Even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. And I have already passed judgment on the one who did this, just as if I were present. When you are assembled in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord. Your boasting is not good. Don't you know that a little yeast works through the whole batch of dough? Get rid of the old yeast that you may be a new batch without yeast--as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed.
Later, when the man had repented, Paul instructed them to bring the repentant man back into the fellowship, lest his sorrows overtake him:
quote:
2 Corinthians 2:5-8
If anyone has caused grief, he has not so much grieved me as he has grieved all of you, to some extent--not to put it too severely. The punishment inflicted on him by the majority is sufficient for him. Now instead, you ought to forgive and comfort him, so that he will not be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow. I urge you, therefore, to reaffirm your love for him.
If Ray Boltz had been part of a fellowship somewhere, hopefully that fellowship has followed the Biblical procedure for handling practicing unrepentant sin in a brother.
The rest of us are right to pray for him and rebuke him, because this is love for a brother lost in his sin.
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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RE: Ray Boltz - GAY?... - 9/15/2008 7:15:41 PM
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Memaw.
Posts: 2454
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Sunflower State
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For those who don't know who he is,
The Anchor Holds is truly a beautiful song.
I do pray that he allows the Anchor to hold him still and he allows God to speak to his heart for repentance and restoration.
_____________________________
"Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction.
Every generation has to learn how to protect and defend it, or it's gone
and gone for a long, long time."
Ronald Reagan
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RE: Ray Boltz - GAY?... - 9/15/2008 7:33:47 PM
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LivingParadox
Posts: 803
Joined: 2/28/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Memaw.
For those who don't know who he is,
The Anchor Holds is truly a beautiful song.
I do pray that he allows the Anchor to hold him still and he allows God to speak to his heart for repentance and restoration.
Exactly.
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RE: Ray Boltz - GAY?... - 9/15/2008 8:08:07 PM
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karlie
Posts: 16952
Joined: 4/10/2005
From: Central California
Status: offline
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MODERATOR'S NOTE :: ATTENTION PLEASE
Please do not use our Community to in any way promote or advocate the acceptability of same-sex unions/marriage, homosexual activity, or homosexual adoption rights.
Please review our statement on what is acceptable regarding discussion on homosexuality in our Range of Doctrines, found HERE. Direct any questions regarding this policy to community@salemwebnetwork.com
Please do not reply to this message within the Community, or send PMs regarding this message.
Please email Community@salemwebnetwork.com with questions, comments, or concerns.
Sincerely,
Karlie
Forums Moderator
_____________________________
All I have needed, Thy hand hath provided...great is Thy faithfulness, Lord unto me.
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