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RE: Men's/Women's roles in the Home - One Stop Thread - 9/23/2008 10:58:36 PM
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HisLamb26
Posts: 359
Joined: 4/17/2005
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quote:
That point wasn't conveniently overlooked! I have never heard this claim before, and I have definitely never seen any statistic that would support this claim.
Actually-I did. Earlier in the thread.
I have met many women over the years that will verbally spout against feminism (especially in church circles where such talk gets them brownie points), yet live lives from a feminist perspective without even realizing it. They give "lip service" to a patriarchal model of leadership in their homes and marriages, but live in marriages that operate very much like mine. (see my post 2214).
Like I said...it looks pretty on paper, but IMO there is significant difference in the mantra repeated, and the lives lived in many homes.
I really think for some folks-it makes them sleep better at night, but the day to day reality of their marriages resembles what you described as an example of "roles" in terminology only.
_____________________________
Feminism is a socialist, anti-family, political movement that encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians. ~Pat Robertson
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RE: Men's/Women's roles in the Home - One Stop Thread - 9/23/2008 11:08:50 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 2829
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HisLamb26
quote:
That point wasn't conveniently overlooked! I have never heard this claim before, and I have definitely never seen any statistic that would support this claim.
Actually-I did. Earlier in the thread.
I have met many women over the years that will verbally spout against feminism (especially in church circles where such talk gets them brownie points), yet live lives from a feminist perspective without even realizing it. They give "lip service" to a patriarchal model of leadership in their homes and marriages, but live in marriages that operate very much like mine. (see my post 2214).
Like I said...it looks pretty on paper, but IMO there is significant difference in the mantra repeated, and the lives lived in many homes.
I really think for some folks-it makes them sleep better at night, but the day to day reality of their marriages resembles what you described as an example of "roles" in terminology only.
I think that it is likely that the reason you see these marriages functioning according to the biblical model of headship/submission in terminology only is that you have a distorted perspective of what biblical headship really means. In your earlier post you described the biblical model as one that is characterized by a bunch of chore assignments i.e. a woman's roles is to cook, clean, take care of the kids, etc... a man's role is to work outside of the home, fix the cars, take out the trash, etc.. The problem is that chore assignments are not what biblical headship is all about, and if you are looking at the chore lists of each spouse to determine if they have a biblical marriage, you are going to get it all wrong. The reality is that a truly biblical marriage is characterized by the attitude of the heart to be in obedience to God's design for marriage, and how fair the chore list will be a reflection of that heart attitude but the assignments of particular chores on that list will not be.
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RE: Men's/Women's roles in the Home - One Stop Thread - 9/23/2008 11:48:03 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2911
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From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
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Benelchi-
I think the last few bits in your last post are one reasonable interpretation of what the bible indicates, and done correctly I think you're right that this approach can yield wonderful results and look strikingly egalitarian in some respects.
I still hold doubts that this is what Paul et al truly had in mind. I also have tremendously inconsolable doubts that this model is able to be practiced without abuse. I have personally witnessed in my own parents marriage the potential for abuse in even the most benign theological takes on this issue. (Good story that I'll share sometime. It has a happy ending and one reason I respect my dad like I do. Not every guy can make the changes he has.)
I respect your conclusions, and can even agree that it's a possible interpretation and that I may be full of hogswollup. You'll never convince me to embrace it though.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Men's/Women's roles in the Home - One Stop Thread - 9/24/2008 12:29:34 AM
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Covaan_Meshuga
Posts: 3576
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From: a mother who let me live
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GroupW
quote:
ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga
Ya wanna fight?
Ya wanna lose?
UNCLE!
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: Men's/Women's roles in the Home - One Stop Thread - 9/24/2008 12:48:31 AM
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GroupW
Posts: 2911
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
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No fair. You can't surrender before we even start. There's a rule about that somewhere.
BT
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Men's/Women's roles in the Home - One Stop Thread - 9/24/2008 12:51:45 AM
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Covaan_Meshuga
Posts: 3576
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Sorry -- I'm not a good fighter. When I was in 8th grade, a girl who was almost 16, but in my class, decided she wanted to beat me up, so she invited a bunch of her high school friends down to watch her beat me to a pulp. I couldn't fight! I had no clue what to do! So I laughed at her. That confused her, so she just slapped my face once. Then everyone left.
I'm a chicken. A big chicken! Cluck cluck!
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: Men's/Women's roles in the Home - One Stop Thread - 9/24/2008 1:00:05 AM
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GroupW
Posts: 2911
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From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
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We have that in common. In high school I weighed in at a whopping 105 pounds. That was when I was a junior. The only person smaller than I was was a girl named Kathleen to whom I will be ever grateful.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Men's/Women's roles in the Home - One Stop Thread - 9/24/2008 1:02:14 AM
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Covaan_Meshuga
Posts: 3576
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I get it! I get it! i was always the smallest in every class until high school.
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: Men's/Women's roles in the Home - One Stop Thread - 9/24/2008 12:01:52 PM
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doinkdom
Posts: 4259
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From: The higher lowcountry
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HisLamb26
I led women's ministries for many years, and was privy to the inner thoughts and hearts of many women.
With all of that, did you try to help these women have a better understanding of what the bible says about wives/husbands?
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RE: Men's/Women's roles in the Home - One Stop Thread - 9/24/2008 2:14:11 PM
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HisLamb26
Posts: 359
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Where I could, doinkdom.
I was in a very conservative church, and had to choose my words carefully. 
But I did offer gentle guidance where I could. I saw so many sad things though, and heard of many cases of abuse. Even men who were in leadership, deacons and such, didn't seem to "get" that their concept of headship wasn't about "king of the castle" as benelchi put it.
I agree with the poster who stated that many forms of patriarchy as practiced in marriage can be ripe soil for abuse. It seems to me perhaps men with abusive traits are attracted to it, for obvious reasons.
I saw women who were married to men who would yell at them if their socks drawers weren't in proper order. Who would complain if their wives bought the wrong brand of peanut butter. One of my girlfriends from that church even had a husband who said that she should call him "Lord", like Abraham did Sara.  . I had another lady that had to leave a woman's ministry night because her husband demanded she come home. He didn't feel like taking care of their one child. (She was a fulltime mom, and hardly ever got a night out....).
Needless to say-I don't go to that church anymore.
_____________________________
Feminism is a socialist, anti-family, political movement that encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians. ~Pat Robertson
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RE: Men's/Women's roles in the Home - One Stop Thread - 9/24/2008 2:26:48 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2911
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From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
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We've examined it closely and as near as I can tell we've determined only that one person's rose is another persons cow pie. 
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Men's/Women's roles in the Home - One Stop Thread - 9/24/2008 2:47:49 PM
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SurpassingPeace
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Joined: 11/21/2007
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This may have been done before but perhaps someone who believes a biblical marriage is a nonegalitarian marriage could describe what that would look like in reality. I can't find it now but in the last posts said that a truly biblical marriage could look egalitarian on the outside but to be truly biblical on the inside it would not be. I don't really understand that.
I am familiar with the Ephesian verses but I don't see how many of you think it works in real life. I would really love if someone could show that to me. It is the same thing as submission. I am not against submission but I just don't understand it. I cannot imagine a scenario that my husband and I could not agree upon a decsion for our family.
With absolutely no disrespect intended, there seems to be alot of Christianese in this subject. I would really like to get beyond sematics and understand what you mean.
Thanks to anyone who undertakes this for me.
Karen
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RE: Men's/Women's roles in the Home - One Stop Thread - 9/24/2008 3:13:10 PM
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tn1
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Frankly, I believe that the way we live reflects what we really believe, not what we give lip service to. Most healthy Christian marriages function in an egalitarian manner, honoring and respecting eachother, making decisions together, working together, and serving one another; though in "theory" they ascribe to Christianized Patriarchy drawing a theoretical spiritual line and ascribing to the husband not "ultimate" but "more" authority in and responsibility for the family.
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RE: Men's/Women's roles in the Home - One Stop Thread - 9/24/2008 3:14:43 PM
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Restored_Heart
Posts: 901
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Actually I think truly biblical marriages follow the JOY format....
Jesus first
Others (spouse in this case)
You
Keep it in that order.... I don't think it matters what you call it.
_____________________________
"Ya mom, I got to see "Some Italian guy" in concert..."
Some Italian guy? (Carman) :p
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RE: Men's/Women's roles in the Home - One Stop Thread - 9/24/2008 6:57:07 PM
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SurpassingPeace
Posts: 108
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tn1 and Restored_Heart, I agree with both your posts.
Here is a problem I have, I have heard time and again, in a Christian marriage a woman's submission won't be abused, the husband won't be domineering and controlling, or my favorite, in a Christian marriage marital rape is impossible becuase a husband wouldn't do that. Really? So in Christian marriage the people are above these sins and it can't happen? Maybe they are two different issues but it seems to me often times when people are talking about the hierarchal biblical marriage they are speaking of an ideal that just doesn't come through in reality most of the time. Or I guess you could say, if they do any of these sins then they weren't really Christians to begin with. Personally I am not comfortable judging the heart of someone else even when their actions disgust me.
So, the whole thing is just confusing to me in trying to understand the other point of view. My husband and I have a wonderful marriage in which we respect and honor each other, work hard for the benefit of our family, put each other first as often as possible, and make decisions together after much prayer and discussion. We honor God with our lives and strive to walk with Christ and encourage each other in our walks with Christ. How is that not a godly, biblical marriage.
I am trying to understand, for a lack of better words, the other side of this. I just don't understand.
Karen
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RE: Men's/Women's roles in the Home - One Stop Thread - 9/24/2008 8:50:18 PM
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Qtman
Posts: 10089
Joined: 3/21/2006
From: Crimson Tide Country
Status: offline
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A dear friend, Smokymtnsanta, posted this in his inspirations thread in the Southern Gospel Folder. He does not post here and seldoms strays from Southern Gospel. But, with the current trend of conversation in this thread I thought his post was very appropriate. Could I please direct your attention HERE.
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Remember: God loves you and I'm trying!
~rogasinger4Him
Body Piercings
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RE: Men's/Women's roles in the Home - One Stop Thread - 9/24/2008 9:05:42 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
Posts: 3576
Joined: 6/8/2005
From: a mother who let me live
Status: offline
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Wow! Thank you.
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: Men's/Women's roles in the Home - One Stop Thread - 9/24/2008 9:13:58 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 2829
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SurpassingPeace
tn1 and Restored_Heart, I agree with both your posts.
Here is a problem I have, I have heard time and again, in a Christian marriage a woman's submission won't be abused, the husband won't be domineering and controlling, or my favorite, in a Christian marriage marital rape is impossible becuase a husband wouldn't do that. Really? So in Christian marriage the people are above these sins and it can't happen? Maybe they are two different issues but it seems to me often times when people are talking about the hierarchal biblical marriage they are speaking of an ideal that just doesn't come through in reality most of the time. Or I guess you could say, if they do any of these sins then they weren't really Christians to begin with. Personally I am not comfortable judging the heart of someone else even when their actions disgust me.
So, the whole thing is just confusing to me in trying to understand the other point of view. My husband and I have a wonderful marriage in which we respect and honor each other, work hard for the benefit of our family, put each other first as often as possible, and make decisions together after much prayer and discussion. We honor God with our lives and strive to walk with Christ and encourage each other in our walks with Christ. How is that not a godly, biblical marriage.
I am trying to understand, for a lack of better words, the other side of this. I just don't understand.
Karen
I am trying to understand why it is that the "what if the husband sins" issue is always brought up by those who reject the biblical call for headship by the husband when BOTH spouses are deeply affect by the sin of their spouse; this is nothing unique to the wife! In the biblical model a husband is even more vulnerable when a wife is acting sinfully than a wife is when a husband is acting sinfully because a wife is never to submit to a husband who who requests her to do anything that would cause her to sin against God (her submission is always to God first); however, a husband is to continually love his wife and sacrificially give of himself to even when she is in complete rebellion to God. When EITHER spouse is acting sinfully the other spouse, HUSBAND or WIFE, will be put in a very difficult position. As I said before when a marriage is functioning as God designed, it will look on the outside almost like an egalitarian marriage; however, when one spouse is sinning, a biblical marriage is characterized by the unconditional self sacrifice of the other spouse. To some extent this is evidenced in every marriage because every spouse still sins. The framework God gave for marriage truly allows for one spouse to carry the other (so to speak) when the other spouse is stumbling.
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RE: Men's/Women's roles in the Home - One Stop Thread - 9/25/2008 6:27:55 AM
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Restored_Heart
Posts: 901
Joined: 7/23/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
ORIGINAL: SurpassingPeace
tn1 and Restored_Heart, I agree with both your posts.
Here is a problem I have, I have heard time and again, in a Christian marriage a woman's submission won't be abused, the husband won't be domineering and controlling, or my favorite, in a Christian marriage marital rape is impossible becuase a husband wouldn't do that. Really? So in Christian marriage the people are above these sins and it can't happen? Maybe they are two different issues but it seems to me often times when people are talking about the hierarchal biblical marriage they are speaking of an ideal that just doesn't come through in reality most of the time. Or I guess you could say, if they do any of these sins then they weren't really Christians to begin with. Personally I am not comfortable judging the heart of someone else even when their actions disgust me.
So, the whole thing is just confusing to me in trying to understand the other point of view. My husband and I have a wonderful marriage in which we respect and honor each other, work hard for the benefit of our family, put each other first as often as possible, and make decisions together after much prayer and discussion. We honor God with our lives and strive to walk with Christ and encourage each other in our walks with Christ. How is that not a godly, biblical marriage.
I am trying to understand, for a lack of better words, the other side of this. I just don't understand.
Karen
I am trying to understand why it is that the "what if the husband sins" issue is always brought up by those who reject the biblical call for headship by the husband when BOTH spouses are deeply affect by the sin of their spouse; this is nothing unique to the wife! In the biblical model a husband is even more vulnerable when a wife is acting sinfully than a wife is when a husband is acting sinfully because a wife is never to submit to a husband who who requests her to do anything that would cause her to sin against God (her submission is always to God first); however, a husband is to continually love his wife and sacrificially give of himself to even when she is in complete rebellion to God. When EITHER spouse is acting sinfully the other spouse, HUSBAND or WIFE, will be put in a very difficult position. As I said before when a marriage is functioning as God designed, it will look on the outside almost like an egalitarian marriage; however, when one spouse is sinning, a biblical marriage is characterized by the unconditional self sacrifice of the other spouse. To some extent this is evidenced in every marriage because every spouse still sins. The framework God gave for marriage truly allows for one spouse to carry the other (so to speak) when the other spouse is stumbling.
Having been there doesn't mean that it is fun, pleasant or even will change them.... as I posted before...
My husband now and myself, in our previous marriages, had to do exactly what benelchi was describing...
That is why now is such a blessing....
_____________________________
"Ya mom, I got to see "Some Italian guy" in concert..."
Some Italian guy? (Carman) :p
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RE: Men's/Women's roles in the Home - One Stop Thread - 9/25/2008 10:32:04 AM
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CoeurdeLeon
Posts: 9503
Joined: 9/4/2005
From: Inside my head
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FWIW, RH, I definitely "get" what you're saying in that post. Could have written it myself. I don't know how old your kids were at the time but I know that mine have seen and now know what sacrificial love looks like.
_____________________________
This morning I was awakened by the sound of purple
colliding with the fragrance of laughter.
Eutychus
10.13.08
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