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RE: the Pearls - 9/15/2008 7:16:23 AM
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3cappuccinosmom
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Oddly enough, the first place I learned about attachment parenting things like babywearing, extended nursing, co-sleeping....was from the Pearls. They are advocates of all of that stuff.
My biggest beef with them is that their stuff can be misread and often is. They aren't professional writers and because they're self-published there's no one to say "You know, you need to clarify this part, or add some explanation, or people are going to think something you didn't mean".
Over the years I have gotten the impression that they are affectionate, fun-loving, firmly attached, rough-and-tumble hillbilly parents  , and that's been verified many times over in writing from their adult children (who I think are all living in different states from their parents now, so they're not at home 'under their thumb' in any way). However, if someone didn't know that or understand that the foundation for what they teach, I agree that it could be twisted into something abusive.
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RE: the Pearls - 9/15/2008 7:46:06 AM
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Sideways
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I do believe you, Maggie. Since you're someone who is quite good at communicating, could you explain what you think they meant about not picking up a newborn who is just fussing at you to be picked up? Although the example was for a 3 month old, it did say to be begin this training at the newborn level to teach them "cheerfulness".
I really would like to understand, but it seems like something like that is hard to correct with just a good editor. And I don't think the part about putting a tired baby in a car, waiting for him to cry, then pulling over and spanking the baby can really be explained someway else. But maybe I am wrong.
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RE: the Pearls - 9/15/2008 11:12:18 AM
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Leslie_JnJs_mom
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I heard about that. Yikes! I wonder how the Pearls felt when they learned that their discipline advise lead to the death of a child?
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RE: the Pearls - 9/15/2008 11:27:54 AM
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Kerryannism
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This is the first time I heard of Pearls. This this so horrible.
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RE: the Pearls - 9/15/2008 12:11:29 PM
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Sideways
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Leslie_JnJs_mom
I heard about that. Yikes! I wonder how the Pearls felt when they learned that their discipline advise lead to the death of a child?
As far as I know (and I may be wrong), they said absolutely nothing, not even to remind parents how to appropriately and safely use their techniques.
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RE: the Pearls - 9/15/2008 12:37:20 PM
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Mrs.X
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I read an article on their website yesterday about parents that take it too far. Lemme see if I can find it....yup, HERE it is.
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RE: the Pearls - 9/15/2008 12:41:08 PM
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Sideways
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Honestly, I get confused by the Pearls. Sometimes they seem very reasonable, other times they're advising parents of young infants not to reward "bad behavior" by picking up a crying child.
I just don't get it. Seems inconsistent and still potentially dangerous.
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RE: the Pearls - 9/15/2008 12:42:16 PM
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Mrs.X
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I saw that too, especially with the above article I just posted and the other article about training a newborn to not cry. They kind of contradict eachother almost.
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A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger. -Proverbs 15:1
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RE: the Pearls - 9/15/2008 1:42:14 PM
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3cappuccinosmom
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First of all, about that woman--what she was doing was not even remotely like what the Pearls teach. They are *very* clear that if you are leaving marks and bruises on your child from spanking, you are out of control and need to STOP. They are also very clear that whatever you use to swat with should be small and flexible (so as to "sting" but not injure), not large, hard and injurious. I have also never once in 10 years of being aware of them seeing *anything* like the blanket/bearhug restraint stuff that the woman was doing. Her saying she was following the Pearl's teachings is like someone kicking a child to death and referencing Dr. Dobson's rememberance of "kick fights" with his father as the teaching they were following. 
quote:
could you explain what you think they meant about not picking up a newborn who is just fussing at you to be picked up? Although the example was for a 3 month old, it did say to be begin this training at the newborn level to teach them "cheerfulness".
Honestly, my understanding of it has always been that it is not "neglect a crying child" but "positively reinforce good behavior". I know a mother who did this. She didn't ignore a crying child, but she was always watching her baby and made sure that if the baby was smiling happily and looking at her, to pick the baby up then rather than wait 2 minutes until the little one started fussing. If the baby was fussing, the mom would stay there, and play with the baby, make faces, etc. until she stopped crying, and then the mom would immediately pick her up. Because the Pearl's are high intensity and big on parental sacrifice for the sake of the children, I simply cannot imagine that they meant a mom should completely ignore a tiny infant and go read a book or something. I don't think they are teaching that a newborn has any understanding of "cheerful", but that babies do mirror our emotions much of the time and we need to actively work on helping them mirror the good stuff.
But obviously, since it took me that giant paragraph to explain what I think they meant, they didn't really do a good job of explaining. 
I wanted to add that their magazine in the last couple of years seems to really show more moderation in their tone and teaching. Maybe getting older and being grandparents has softened them up a little. 
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RE: the Pearls - 9/15/2008 1:53:27 PM
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Jenny-Fair
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quote:
a parent has to be willing to stop the car on the way to wherever they're eager to get to in order to be consistent with training and discipline. I think that's a very good point. I have met many a frustrated parent who made exceptions to rules because it was inconvenient to follow through. However, a kid will figure out rather quickly when it's inconvenient for you and take advantage of it.
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RE: the Pearls - 9/15/2008 4:17:33 PM
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kohls356
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This is part of the letter that was linked.
"Yes, we all need to be troubled, and young couples need encouragement and help from the older couples. We have seen families who take what we and others have written and use it like the law. When older, wiser people try to help bring balance, the younger couples do not take their counsel. It grieves us. If children are not bubbling with joy and eager to be a part of life, then something is very wrong. Good training begins and ends with tying strings of fellowship and bonds of good times."
You know it is a shame that they don't get that message across in their books. Because how it is written does seem like the law and if you don't do it like they say then you aren't doing it right. I can see how a new parent could read what they said trying to follow what they have written and go too far.
Here is another part I just simply did not agree with and where I can see a mom taking it too far.
"For example, if a 3 month-old nursing baby bites, don’t spank. She does not know she did bad. Just gently pull a hair on her head. She will startle back in momentary discomfort and immediately start nursing again. The tiny bit of discomfort makes the baby relate the biting down with the gentle pulling of the hair. You have not made her obey, you have only conditioned her to respond differently. That is training."
I would think you would have to do more than just gently pull their hair to startle them. The word gentle to me means just that gentle and that wouldn't startle someone. Gentle shouldn't bring discomfort. So I can see a new mom who does that gently at first and the baby not startle so the mom starts to tug harder until the baby actually does hurt.
What worked for me was to simply take them off the breast for a few seconds.
It looks like this article was written in 2002. I know I read To Train Up a Child probably 15 years ago give or take a few. I think they realize that people have taken their "advice" too far and they are changing what they meant. Because when I read the books I just don't feel any love from them at all. I am sure they love their kids but their books just don't have that feel to them.
Here is another part of the letter
"If you take a 13 week-old baby who is fussing, and squirming and pop her leg, it will only bring more fussing and crying. The child cannot relate those 2 events. She most likely has a tummy ache that needs some relief, not added pain."
I totally agree with her on that but that is not how it would have been written in the book. I remember reading about Pearl being at an Amish house and watching how a dad would pop the leg of the child sitting on his lap because the child wanted his mother. He did that until the child stopped wanting his mom. The child was older but to me that is not just breaking the will of the child but also the spirit.
I think the only thing I can agree with Debi Pearl is what she said here.
"Ask God for wisdom. He promises to give to those who simply ask."
If more people would take that advice there woudn't be any need for people such as the Pearls, Dobson, websites like The woodshed etc.
< Message edited by kohls356 -- 9/15/2008 6:32:05 PM >
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