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RE: I wonder ... - 9/18/2008 9:36:54 PM
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FreddieD
Posts: 299
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ManimalX
So in other words you can't provide any evidence that Dubya took America to war in Iraq "for oil" (your words) and you admit that it is mere opinion?
It is irrational and unnecessary for you to expect anyone to present prima facie evidence when there is both liberal and conservative testimonies from experts in their field of endeavor, finical, business, and political.
quote:
ORIGINAL: ManimalX
This little discussion was not about my claims.
You had made a claim as to the reason of the war, which you have yet to defend? As I recall,
FreddieD: Is it fighting injustice?
ManimalX: Yes.
quote:
ORIGINAL: ManimalX
You provided as "proof" some 5-year-old articles that were speculation, a paragraph article that Alan Greenspan (a liberal) has an opinion, and a quote from John McCain (which according to his own words was about the Gulf War, not the current war).
Now I know your are delusional. Alan Greenspan, as a Republican, is a liberal? Also The Huffington Post clearly stated “During a town hall event in Colorado today, John McCain ‘decried the dangers of Americans reliance on foreign oil,’ but ‘also seemed to suggest that this reliance caused the current struggle in Iraq.’”
I think I will continue this discussion when you answer for your "reason" and when you can get in touch with reality. Thank you.
FreddieD
< Message edited by FreddieD -- 9/18/2008 9:45:51 PM >
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RE: I wonder ... - 9/18/2008 9:52:11 PM
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Psalms274
Posts: 1101
Joined: 8/13/2005
From: Georgia
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quote:
Alan Greenspan, as a Republican, is a liberal?
Alan Greenspan was appointed by Bill Clinton, and is a Democrat.
_____________________________
I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ.
< Linus w/ a friends baby!
http://piswa.blogspot.com/
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RE: I wonder ... - 9/18/2008 9:54:58 PM
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Dubya
Posts: 1033
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From: Texas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Psalms274
quote:
Alan Greenspan, as a Republican, is a liberal?
Alan Greenspan was appointed by Bill Clinton, and is a Democrat.
Actually he was appointed by Ronald Reagan, a Republican.
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RE: I wonder ... - 9/18/2008 10:14:21 PM
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FreddieD
Posts: 299
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dubya
Actually he was appointed by Ronald Reagan, a Republican.
Thank you Dubya
I particularly like this part printed in the Wikipedia about Alan Greenspan.
“Of all the presidents with whom he worked, he praises Bill Clinton above all others, saying that Clinton maintained 'a consistent, disciplined focus on long-term economic growth.'”
FreddieD
< Message edited by FreddieD -- 9/18/2008 10:26:45 PM >
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RE: I wonder ... - 9/18/2008 11:36:16 PM
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zamdad
Posts: 1664
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Wow! I read through thsi thread and, well... Freddy, you haven't answered anything. Are you one of Obama's advisors?
_____________________________
“A dead thing goes with the stream, but only a living thing can go against it.”
G.K. Chesterton
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RE: I wonder ... - 9/18/2008 11:52:15 PM
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wing2000
Posts: 1035
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quote:
Oh how I wish they could be held responsible. PBS has a history of a liberal slant and it is funded by our dear government.
When it comes to election coverage, PBS is a lot less biased than the networks (especially MSNBC, FOX). They do make an effort to have mulitple points of view presented.
Additionally, PBS does not have the commericial pressure to shape content based on ratings (i.e. what people want to hear)....which IMO is the number one problem with the news media in this country....
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RE: I wonder ... - 9/19/2008 12:02:16 AM
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FreddieD
Posts: 299
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quote:
ORIGINAL: zamdad
Wow! I read through thsi thread and, well... Freddy, you haven't answered anything. Are you one of Obama's advisors?
Wow! zamdad, can you read?
FreddieD
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RE: I wonder ... - 9/19/2008 12:26:20 AM
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zamdad
Posts: 1664
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Seems to me, Freddie, I said I read the thread. You've dodged and danced, and haven't answered a darned thing. And you ask if I can read? Seems like you want nothing more than to be heard but have no willingness to listen.
_____________________________
“A dead thing goes with the stream, but only a living thing can go against it.”
G.K. Chesterton
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RE: I wonder ... - 9/19/2008 12:37:54 AM
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ManimalX
Posts: 1226
Joined: 10/25/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreddieD
FreddieD: Is it fighting injustice?
ManimalX: Yes.
quote:
ORIGINAL: ManimalX
You provided as "proof" some 5-year-old articles that were speculation, a paragraph article that Alan Greenspan (a liberal) has an opinion, and a quote from John McCain (which according to his own words was about the Gulf War, not the current war).
I think I will continue this discussion when you answer for your "reason" and when you can get in touch with reality. Thank you.
FreddieD
Evidence that injustice has been defeated in Iraq because of US military efforts:
Saddam Hussein and his evil spawn have been croaked.
The leader of Iraq is no longer using chemical weapons against his own people.
Iraqi women are no longer being dragged off to rape rooms.
Iraqi men are no longer being dragged off to torture chambers for doing such dastardly things as losing a futbol match.
Hospitals, Schools, Libraries and other beneficial infrastructure is being built, staffed, and utilized heavily by the Iraqis.
Iraqis are now able to cast real votes without fear of reprisal.
Al-quaeda has been dealt severe blows.
Stability is returning to the region.
The Gospel is going out and being embraced in Iraq.
I could go on, but I have a paper due tonight and have been putting it off to post here ;)
< Message edited by ManimalX -- 9/19/2008 11:45:34 AM >
_____________________________
"But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed." - 2nd Peter 3:10
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RE: I wonder ... - 9/20/2008 11:22:35 AM
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FreddieD
Posts: 299
Joined: 7/23/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ManimalX
Evidence that injustice has been defeated in Iraq because of US military efforts:
Saddam Hussein and his evil spawn have been croaked.
The leader of Iraq is no longer using chemical weapons against his own people.
Iraqi women are no longer being dragged off to rape rooms.
Iraqi men are no longer being dragged off to torture chambers for doing such dastardly things as losing a futbol match.
Hospitals, Schools, Libraries and other beneficial infrastructure is being built, staffed, and utilized heavily by the Iraqis.
Iraqis are now able to cast real votes without fear of reprisal.
Al-quaeda has been dealt severe blows.
Stability is returning to the region.
The Gospel is going out and being embraced in Iraq.
I could go on, but I have a paper due tonight and have been putting it off to post here ;)
That is all well and good but can you come up with any reliable resource, documentation, or policy supporting your conviction that that is the reason for invading Iraq?
FreddieD
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RE: I wonder ... - 9/20/2008 11:25:10 AM
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FreddieD
Posts: 299
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quote:
ORIGINAL: zamdad
Seems to me, Freddie, I said I read the thread. You've dodged and danced, and haven't answered a darned thing. And you ask if I can read? Seems like you want nothing more than to be heard but have no willingness to listen.
What is it that you don’t understand? Is it Mr. Greenspan comment?
FreddieD
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RE: I wonder ... - 9/20/2008 1:53:56 PM
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ManimalX
Posts: 1226
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreddieD
That is all well and good but can you come up with any reliable resource, documentation, or policy supporting your conviction that that is the reason for invading Iraq?
FreddieD
Well, there is always this:
quote:
ORIGINAL: President George W. Bush
American and coalition forces have begun a concerted campaign against the regime of Saddam Hussein. In this war, our coalition is broad, more than 40 countries from across the globe. Our cause is just, the security of the nations we serve and the peace of the world. And our mission is clear, to disarm Iraq of weapons of mass destruction, to end Saddam Hussein's support for terrorism, and to free the Iraqi people.
From http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/03/20030322.html
And Public Law No. 107-243:
quote:
Whereas Iraq both poses a continuing threat to the national security of the United States and international peace and security in the Persian Gulf region and remains in material and unacceptable breach of its international obligations by, among other things, continuing to possess and develop a significant chemical and biological weapons capability, actively seeking a nuclear weapons capability, and supporting and harboring terrorist organizations;
Whereas Iraq persists in violating resolution of the United Nations Security Council by continuing to engage in brutal repression of its civilian population thereby threatening international peace and security in the region, by refusing to release, repatriate, or account for non-Iraqi citizens wrongfully detained by Iraq, including an American serviceman, and by failing to return property wrongfully seized by Iraq from Kuwait;
From http://www.c-span.org/resources/pdf/hjres114.pdf
I eagerly await your dismissal of the evidence.
< Message edited by ManimalX -- 9/20/2008 2:06:03 PM >
_____________________________
"But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed." - 2nd Peter 3:10
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RE: I wonder ... - 9/20/2008 2:08:51 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5392
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreddieD
So let me ask you this question. Are we in Iraq because of God’s will? Is it God’s task?
FreddieD
God ordained the civil government to be His minister of wrath for those who do evil. If a government is dealing with injustice in a just manner it is most certainly a task of God, in fact it's commanded by God, and the very purpose He ordained civil governments. He is the God of order, not chaos...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: I wonder ... - 9/20/2008 4:39:59 PM
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Rufas2000
Posts: 1302
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
Seems like you want nothing more than to be heard but have no willingness to listen.
In fairness how often have you read on any message board debate* some variation of "You are correct, I learned something today"?
* Debate is a key word here, quite often people come seeking information and learn something (although more people claim to seek information when what they really seek is a subtle way of presenting their own POV).
_____________________________
Be my friend!
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RE: I wonder ... - 9/20/2008 5:23:17 PM
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zamdad
Posts: 1664
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quote:
In fairness how often have you read on any message board debate* some variation of "You are correct, I learned something today"?
* Debate is a key word here, quite often people come seeking information and learn something (although more people claim to seek information when what they really seek is a subtle way of presenting their own POV).
I agree with you on this. I don't normally post in this folder, but things have gotten interesting and I've been coming here. My point to Freddie was that there were several questions asked of him and he failed to answer any of them. It's clear he wants to fight, not debate. Instead of responding with anything loking like an answer to any of the questions he was asked, he asks if I can read. It's clear to me that he is one of those posters I can simply ignore. He doesn't seem to want a discussion, only a place to sound off.
_____________________________
“A dead thing goes with the stream, but only a living thing can go against it.”
G.K. Chesterton
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RE: I wonder ... - 9/20/2008 5:42:01 PM
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Rufas2000
Posts: 1302
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: online
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quote:
Instead of responding with anything loking like an answer to any of the questions he was asked, he asks if I can read.
Yeah thats annoying. I hate the "can you read" deal. Maybe "did you read" would be OK but "can you read", thats cheap.
And you're right, it has gotten interesting lately. But after responding for a few weeks I realized that most of its the same stuff being posted time and again. I think just about everybody here is entrenched in their position and looking to advance it. Which is fine, after all as Christians we are to be about advancing God's Kingdom and many feel this election is important because our society may regress if the wrong ticket is elected. And certainly those who have an agenda that is not based on a Christian world view are working diligently to advance their cause.
But it does cause the old "deja vu" feeling sometimes.
_____________________________
Be my friend!
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RE: I wonder ... - 9/20/2008 5:49:20 PM
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ManimalX
Posts: 1226
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Rufas:
I usually post with the reader in mind. If I can manage a decent defense or argue a point effectively, I hope there is someone reading who learns some truth and is able to make the same defenses in theiir own lives if need be.
I know Freddie won't ever admit that his "war for oil" claim is baseless opinion, but by not letting baseless claims slide, everyone can learn a little bit more about who's word is more reliable and which arguments just don't work.
_____________________________
"But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed." - 2nd Peter 3:10
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RE: I wonder ... - 9/20/2008 6:41:48 PM
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Rufas2000
Posts: 1302
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: online
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quote:
I usually post with the reader in mind. If I can manage a decent defense or argue a point effectively, I hope there is someone reading who learns some truth and is able to make the same defenses in theiir own lives if need be.
I know Freddie won't ever admit that his "war for oil" claim is baseless opinion, but by not letting baseless claims slide, everyone can learn a little bit more about who's word is more reliable and which arguments just don't work.
You make a good point. I don't blame anyone for evaluating the issues, determining their stance and arguing with conviction. Especially if its from a Christian world view. It does lead to repetitiveness but what ya gonna do? At least when "new blood" enters the fray the arguments are expressed differently.
I also think people learn from these boards, I know I do. Most people just don't say so.
_____________________________
Be my friend!
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RE: I wonder ... - 9/20/2008 8:01:34 PM
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ManimalX
Posts: 1226
Joined: 10/25/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Rufas2000
quote:
I usually post with the reader in mind. If I can manage a decent defense or argue a point effectively, I hope there is someone reading who learns some truth and is able to make the same defenses in theiir own lives if need be.
I know Freddie won't ever admit that his "war for oil" claim is baseless opinion, but by not letting baseless claims slide, everyone can learn a little bit more about who's word is more reliable and which arguments just don't work.
You make a good point. I don't blame anyone for evaluating the issues, determining their stance and arguing with conviction. Especially if its from a Christian world view. It does lead to repetitiveness but what ya gonna do? At least when "new blood" enters the fray the arguments are expressed differently.
I also think people learn from these boards, I know I do. Most people just don't say so.
I do as well. I try to do at least some research into a matter before I "open my mouth" about it, and I have learned a lot in the process. There are also some excellent researchers here that have taught me a lot.
I guess it just proves, "Iron sharpens iron".
_____________________________
"But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed." - 2nd Peter 3:10
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RE: I wonder ... - 9/20/2008 8:44:11 PM
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FreddieD
Posts: 299
Joined: 7/23/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ManimalX
Well, there is always this:
quote:
ORIGINAL: President George W. Bush
American and coalition forces have begun a concerted campaign against the regime of Saddam Hussein. In this war, our coalition is broad, more than 40 countries from across the globe. Our cause is just, the security of the nations we serve and the peace of the world. And our mission is clear, to disarm Iraq of weapons of mass destruction, to end Saddam Hussein's support for terrorism, and to free the Iraqi people.
Weapons of mass destruction. We know now there was none.
Saddam Hussein's support for terrorism. We know that he didn't support terrorist.
Free the Iraqi people. I'll give you one, but such a policy is not being put into practice globally. It is hard to take the policy seriously absent of consistency. Should we invade Russia for her aggression, or is it best to beat-up on the little guy just to play it safe?
Iraq was never a threat to the U.S.
FreddieD
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RE: I wonder ... - 9/20/2008 8:47:59 PM
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FreddieD
Posts: 299
Joined: 7/23/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
God ordained the civil government to be His minister of wrath for those who do evil. If a government is dealing with injustice in a just manner it is most certainly a task of God, in fact it's commanded by God, and the very purpose He ordained civil governments. He is the God of order, not chaos...
Who is to determine that?
FreddieD
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RE: I wonder ... - 9/20/2008 9:43:37 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5392
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreddieD
Saddam Hussein's support for terrorism. We know that he didn't support terrorist.
Actually he did, unless you believe that Al Queda is the only terrorist group in the world... He offered money too the family of suicide bombers as an enticement for others to volunteer for martyrdom in the name of the Palestinian people. And Iraq was a safe haven for the likes of Abu Nidal and bu Abbas....
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: I wonder ... - 9/20/2008 9:45:16 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5392
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreddieD
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
God ordained the civil government to be His minister of wrath for those who do evil. If a government is dealing with injustice in a just manner it is most certainly a task of God, in fact it's commanded by God, and the very purpose He ordained civil governments. He is the God of order, not chaos...
Who is to determine that?
FreddieD
Whomever does or doesn't determine it doesn't change the above... Are you willing to say everyone endeavor is unjust?
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: I wonder ... - 9/20/2008 10:01:17 PM
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ManimalX
Posts: 1226
Joined: 10/25/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreddieD
Weapons of mass destruction. We know now there was none.
FreddieD
I have a feeling this thread will be closed down soon, so at risk of hastening that....
Have you ever heard of Georges Sada? He was an Air Marshal, called "General" in English usually, who served under Saddam Hussein. He is an amazing Christian man with some fascinating stories about his service. At one point, he was placed in charge of captured US pilots and by his faith in Christ flat out disobeyed Saddam's sons when they ordered the pilots to be killed. He presented Saddam Hussein with Bibles and was able to witness to the dictator and yet was never killed as would be expected. He tells of the night of the coalition invasion, he was allowed to sleep in Saddam's bed in the palace because Saddam wasn't there. God woke him from sleep and told him to get up, and 13 seconds after he got out of bed a bomb struck and collapsed the ceiling onto the bed. He has an autobiography out that you should check out. God's hand of protection over Gen. Sada is just amazing.
That all being said, in the days leading up to the coalition invasion, Gen. Sada saw first hand WMDs being shipped to Syria in hundreds of trucks under the guise of... foreign aid, if I recall correctly. They were disguised as something, I just can't remember exactly what. His claims have never been refuted.
There are also other accounts of WMDs being destroyed or hidden or shipped away if you care to investigate. We also have the yellow-cake that was found.
Bottom line, Saddam certainly did have WMDs. Even if he didn't, all of our intelligence pointed to it. The US thought he had WMDs. Britain thought he had WMDs. Israel thought he had WMDs. So my point still stands, that we had valid and just reasons for going to war, and that reason wasn't to secure oil for ourselves.
_____________________________
"But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed." - 2nd Peter 3:10
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I apologize and thank you for the correction! 
