Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread (Full Version)

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Fritzpw_Admin -> Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread (4/20/2005 1:43:28 PM)

Discuss the issues surrounding the role of women within the church.



charityagape -> RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (4/20/2005 1:53:04 PM)

Yeah!! First Poster. Good job Fritz, all the separate threads were getting hard to keep up with.



i_believe -> RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (4/20/2005 2:05:37 PM)

quote:

From Martin: Now if Paul were talking about a hierarchy in the Godhead (at which thought St Anasthasia would turn in his grave), there are several elements missing.



You started in the right direction... Equal but different!

Phi 2:5-11 Have this in your mind, which was also in Christ Jesus, (6) who, existing in the form of God, didn't consider equality with God a thing to be grasped, (7) but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men. (8) And being found in human form, he humbled himself, becoming obedient to death, yes, the death of the cross. (9) Therefore God also highly exalted him, and gave to him the name which is above every name; (10) that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, those on earth, and those under the earth, (11) and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

What does the Word say "Jesus... emptied himself, taking the form of a servant." "Who, existing in the form of God, didn't consider equality with God a thing to be grasped."

But instead of this we hear things like (She knows the Bible as well as any man so why shouldn't she teach it to anyone she wants? God didn't give her that gift to waste it.)

Joh 8:28 Jesus therefore said to them, "When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he, and I do nothing of myself, but as my Father taught me, I say these things.

Mar 13:31-32 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away. (32) But of that day or that hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

Joh 10:17-18 Therefore the Father loves me, because I lay down my life, that I may take it again. (18) No one takes it away from me, but I lay it down by myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. I received this commandment from my Father."

Joh 14:28 You heard how I told you, 'I go away, and I come to you.' If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I said 'I am going to my Father;' for the Father is greater than I.

Joh 15:10 If you keep my commandments, you will remain in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and remain in his love.



charityagape -> RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (4/20/2005 2:09:26 PM)

Well, I do have a question. In the church we've had an amazing amount of people who say women can't speak at all in the assembly or if they can its with limits and no authority or any variation thereof. So, what is the role that we are to do in the assembly? Not in the home, in the assembly.



bzirk -> RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (4/20/2005 2:13:13 PM)

Scripture makes it clear that women can pray and prophesy. No question about that. it's plain as can be from I Cor. I also think that women can teach and exhibit all sorts of other gifts. The only place where scripture draws the line is in having authority over men and to teach them doctrine. That is the only thing prohibited.



bygraceiamsaved -> RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (4/20/2005 2:24:30 PM)

Well said Bzirk and I would agree.



Ginosko -> RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (4/20/2005 2:28:38 PM)

bzrk,

Indeed, women are to exercise all of their God given gifts in the assembly. The only thing that women are prohibitted from doing, as I understand Scripture, is to preach in the assembly as if they were elders or to exercise authority over a man. It may be true that we've made a mess of God ordained biblical leadership but that certainly does not mean that we are to chuck the principle. God is the head of Christ; Christ is the head of man; Man is the head of the woman. Those are pretty straight forward concepts. Jesus was under submission. Men are under submission. Women are under submission. And none of this has absolutely anything to do with 'equality' as those who advocate egalitarianism would have us believe.

My wife gives me a great deal of wise counsel and has taught me much. But there's absolutely no doubt whatsoever who she thinks is the head of the househod. That's why I take the trash out! Just kidding!



joint heir -> RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (4/20/2005 2:33:48 PM)

In response to Bzirk's post....

Then next logical question would be then what is authority? and prophet..

Find any prophet in the Bible and you will see that they have authority...they are speaking the very words of God...

unless men are just not supposed to listen to a prophet of God who happens to be female...



bygraceiamsaved -> RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (4/20/2005 2:35:19 PM)

LOL Ginkosko. I just understood from Bzirks post that she was saying what you have just said. Am I wrong bzirk?



JoToP -> RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (4/20/2005 3:24:33 PM)

Gionosko brings up an interesting point well worth considering. Jesus washed his disciples' feet. This was no empty object lesson. The Creator God bowed under his disciples and took hold of the filthy member and washed it. Then he holds out to his disciples, "The servant is not above his master" meaning that they had to go at least that low toward one another if they were to perform their office. Their office was that of apostloic founders upon which Christ promised to build his Church.

Some would have it that God's headship over Christ must be sub-ordinationism, but John 13 shows how that is not so. Christ humbled himself under the laws, customs and mores of men aqnd even lowered himself below his disciples for that moment in which he condescended to wash their feet. This in no way effected his intrinsic superiority over them. Nor does Christ's submiswsion to the Father effect his intrinsic equality to the Father. Subjection is a choice which in no way effects the value of the one choosing.

It is a huge mistake to assume that for a woman (or man, or child, or Christ) to be in submission that she is intrinsically inferior, apples to oranges. Yet this seems to be the crux of the argument of those in favor of interpreting 1 Tim. and 1 Cor. "they can't mean what they say" because "there is no man or woman", that is men and women are equal. Right. Men and women are equal. Women's submission doesn't touch that subject at all. Such reasoning creates a "problem" in Scripture which does not exist. The problem is in the importation of terms of equality derived from current sources of civil liberties. Let the Bible define equality and submission and the problem disappears.



Ginosko -> RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (4/20/2005 3:36:35 PM)

Thankyou JoToP,

Yes, indeed, Christ's submission to the Father is the divine model for us to understand the realation between the Father and The Son, the Son and the Church, The Son and the man, and the man and the woman. Somehow in our warped thinking we've equated 'equality' with not having to be under submission. I think John 5:18-30 illustrates beutifully the full equality of the Son to the Father which is reflected by his uniform desire to submit to the will of the Father. Just because there is a clear order of their relationship does not diminish or negate the mutual and essential equality of these two persons.



charityagape -> RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (4/20/2005 3:39:37 PM)

I understand submission. I am in submission to my husband and in another sense to my pastor and in a greater sense to all christians as we submit to one another. However, this submission to authority doesn't keep my pastor from asking me to speak in the assembly.



joint heir -> RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (4/20/2005 3:59:13 PM)

It is incorrect to say that the desire for women to use their gifts to the fullest is an imported one...it is a biblical one...at least for the people that seem to be on this board...

In Romans 12 we are taught to use our gifts in proportion to the amount of faith and grace we are given.....not to restrict them by gender....
(unless one wants to argue that men are given more of both)

and from 1 Corinthians 12:31 where we are all instructed to desire the greater gifts included in the list is the gift of apostle....which obviously is one of authority.
(unless one wants to argue that this verse was not written for women)

Any leader should model themselves after Christ...that goes without saying....and everyone is to model their entire lives after Christ as he instructed to both male and female

Women do not want to take over the church and run things their way...they don't want to just be equal for equality sake...they just want to be able to do what the Lord is calling them to do and use their gifts based on their faith and grace given to them...to help others grow and to bring people to Christ....without feeling condemned by their brothers and sisters for some perceived sin.



charityagape -> RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (4/20/2005 4:05:00 PM)

quote:

Love thy neighbor preemptively



I absolutely love this signature, meant to say something a couple of times. It should be the church motto.



**************

great post heir.



mabel -> RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (4/20/2005 4:28:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: joint heir

It is incorrect to say that the desire for women to use their gifts to the fullest is an imported one...it is a biblical one...at least for the people that seem to be on this board...

In Romans 12 we are taught to use our gifts in proportion to the amount of faith and grace we are given.....not to restrict them by gender....
(unless one wants to argue that men are given more of both)

and from 1 Corinthians 12:31 where we are all instructed to desire the greater gifts included in the list is the gift of apostle....which obviously is one of authority.
(unless one wants to argue that this verse was not written for women)

Any leader should model themselves after Christ...that goes without saying....and everyone is to model their entire lives after Christ as he instructed to both male and female

Women do not want to take over the church and run things their way...they don't want to just be equal for equality sake...they just want to be able to do what the Lord is calling them to do and use their gifts based on their faith and grace given to them...to help others grow and to bring people to Christ....without feeling condemned by their brothers and sisters for some perceived sin.


Well said joint heir.



JoToP -> RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (4/20/2005 4:44:18 PM)

CharityAgape,

quote:

I understand submission. I am in submission to my husband and in another sense to my pastor and in a greater sense to all christians as we submit to one another. However, this submission to authority doesn't keep my pastor from asking me to speak in the assembly.

But your submission to God’s Word should, no matter what your pastor may allow in ignorance of the doctrine.
Joint Heir,
quote:

It is incorrect to say that the desire for women to use their gifts to the fullest is an imported one...it is a biblical one...at least for the people that seem to be on this board...

In Romans 12 we are taught to use our gifts in proportion to the amount of faith and grace we are given.....not to restrict them by gender....
(unless one wants to argue that men are given more of both)


Is all there is to Church what goes on in the Assembly? Are the gifts only confined there? If so, not many gifts are of much use, are they, seeing that the order of service requires that everyone rest so much of their gifts during worship. Gifts are used predominantly outside of the Worship Assembly, in day to day fellowship where believers are serving one another. The restriction of exercise of gift in the Assembly does not permanently nullify all gifts. This is an over generalization.

quote:

and from 1 Corinthians 12:31 where we are all instructed to desire the greater gifts included in the list is the gift of apostle....which obviously is one of authority.

I’ve always found it interesting that Paul never lays out which gifts are superior except that tongues are definitely inferior to prophecy because of their inferior value in edifying the body. The condition in the church is laid out that people were using tongues in an unedifying manner. I don’t think Paul is saying that he’d like for everybody to be a prophet, though, just that gifts that most soundly build up the body should be magnified by all members (the word “desire” could be rendered “esteem” and seems to fit better than the idea that everyone is trying to achieve a gift they do not have, which would be poor advice to a body he has already described as varied in gifts.) Using this passage as a proof text for aspiring to pastor where other passages prohibit such aspiration is improper use of Scripture. One passage does not argue with another, but all agree. Pitting one passage against another and bringing personal inclinations in as ally is not a fit foundation for a Christian doctrine. As for “apostle” being in the list, that is an evidence that all of those gifts do not still exist. I would hold that this is true of prophecy as well, seeing the Word of God is complete and has been pronounced sufficient for all matters of faith and practice. Prophecy filled in the gaps where Scripture was incomplete.

quote:

(unless one wants to argue that this verse was not written for women)

Of course it is written for women and applies to women where application is not interdicted by other passages of Scripture. Many things are written for us that may not all be directly related to us for one reason or another, if for no other reason than for our instruction. I don’t believe there is a man’s Bible and a woman’s Bible contained within the canon. All of the Bible is for all believers. The Bible has a great deal to say about Jews. Most Christians are not Jews, but are edified by these passages and built up in the faith.

quote:

Women do not want to take over the church and run things their way...they don't want to just be equal for equality sake...they just want to be able to do what the Lord is calling them to do and use their gifts based on their faith and grace given to them...to help others grow and to bring people to Christ....without feeling condemned by their brothers and sisters for some perceived sin.

This is laudable, but it does not relieve women (or anyone else, for that matter) from finding out where and in what manner God would have them minister. The Bible is the rule of faith and practice. We have to be careful not to dictate doctrine by what we perceive about what we are or who we think we are or what our gifts may be. Is it a contradiction for God to give the gift of teaching to a woman and restrict her from using that gift in a certain place and at a certain time? Does that muzzle her? Can a woman only teach in the assembly? If that is her view, she need not be teaching at all because she does not understand the scope of her faith and life. The same is true of men. There are men who believe that the only place where speech can be used is in Church or on a mission field. Are there no weak Christians in the workplace, no unbelievers? Are their children without need of their gifts? What is it about a pulpit and an audience that actuates a gift? I think this kind of thinking is quite narrow.



Ginosko -> RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (4/20/2005 5:58:13 PM)

Charity,

submission to authority doesn't keep my pastor from asking me to speak in the assembly.

No one has said or implied that as a woman you may not speak at any time for any purpose in the assembly. What is prohibitted in the Scriptures is a woman "teaching" as if she were an elder, with an elder's authority, in the assembly and exercising authority over the man. That's it! Scriptures disallow women from serving as bishop/elder/pastor specifically because doing so would contradict these two prohibitions. Neither prohibition prevents a woman from praying in the assembly, sharing a testimony, prophesying, or reporting what God is doing in the world. Nor does it prohibit women from teaching. She just may not teach in the role described above.



i_believe -> RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (4/20/2005 6:05:44 PM)

quote:

they just want to be able to do what the Lord is calling them to do and use their gifts based on their faith and grace given to them...to help others grow and to bring people to Christ


A gifting and calling may be of the Lord but the application of these will not contradict His clear design for authority within the gathered assembly. Many people are called of the lord but fail to respond in the manner that He has directed. Some fear and do less, others covet and overstep their call... and some follow obediently.

Coveting can occur when one thinks equal value implies equal roles/responsibilities in the church.



Ginosko -> RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (4/20/2005 6:08:46 PM)

Joint Heir,

Women do not want to take over the church and run things their way...they don't want to just be equal for equality sake...they just want to be able to do what the Lord is calling them to do and use their gifts

I don't think anyone is acusing women of "wanting to take over the church and run things." Neither is anyone desirous of preventing women from fully exercising all of their God given spiritual gifts. That point is not at issue here. It is God himself who has established the divine order of things. It is He through the Apostle Paul who said, I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man. As far as I can determine neither of these restrictions prevent a woman from exercising the full range of her spirtual gifts. In view of the foregoing it is highly unlikely that the Lord has "called" any women to pastor a church. To do so would contradict Hs own word.



cynthia -> RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (4/20/2005 6:16:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ginosko

Charity,

submission to authority doesn't keep my pastor from asking me to speak in the assembly.

No one has said or implied that as a woman you may not speak at any time for any purpose in the assembly. What is prohibitted in the Scriptures is a woman "teaching" as if she were an elder, with an elder's authority, in the assembly and exercising authority over the man. That's it! Scriptures disallow women from serving as bishop/elder/pastor specifically because doing so would contradict these two prohibitions. Neither prohibition prevents a woman from praying in the assembly, sharing a testimony, prophesying, or reporting what God is doing in the world. Nor does it prohibit women from teaching. She just may not teach in the role described above.

What do you think about women being pastors of other women? Some large churches have womens pastors.



Ginosko -> RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (4/20/2005 6:22:36 PM)

Cynthia,

What do you think about women being pastors of other women? Some large churches have womens pastors.

To tell you the truth, sis, I'd never thought about that possibility. I probably ought to think about it though before a shoot my mouth off. Thinking, thinking, thinking..... I need more time. (I've gotta go ask my wife... Ahhhh, just kidding!!) I'll get back to ya.



sadiebelle -> RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (4/20/2005 6:30:39 PM)

Interesting quote from a book I am reading:
" ...there are levels and kids of leadership for which women may and often should take responsibility. There are kinds of teaching, administration, organization, ministry, influence and initiative that women/wives should undertake at home and at church. Male headship at home and eldership at church mean that men bear the responsibility for the overall paatern of life. Headship does not prescribe the details of who precisely does what activity. After the fall, God called Adam into account first (Gen 3:9). This was not because the woman bore no responsibility for sin, but because the man bore primary responsibility for life in the garden--including sin." ~Recovering Biblical Manhood and Womanhood...Piper & Grudem

I like this because while it is clear that men should bear the primary responsibility for headship at home and at church, it doesn't mean he can't delegate jobs to women and that he can't take their opinions and influence into consideration. It also makes it clear, something I've been trying to explain: Women are not giving up their accountability to God by being under the headship of the men; it is simply an order of primary responsibility. It's too easy for men to shift blame if the men are lazy and compromising in their roles as men. They can always turn the other cheek or simply shift blame and say," it's her fault." If men and women are married, this attitude goes against the notion that we are one flesh and united. Your husband shouldn't be able, in God's sight, to point the finger...he should accept responsibility first, and then move out of the way so God can deal with the woman as well.
If church eldership was like it is at home, I think a lot of quibbling among believers would be eliminated. Too often I see a lack of responsibility on the part of the men and the women let situations escalate beyond what the men are comfortable in dealing with. I can think of two instances off the top of my head.



bzirk -> RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (4/20/2005 6:31:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ginosko

Charity,

submission to authority doesn't keep my pastor from asking me to speak in the assembly.

No one has said or implied that as a woman you may not speak at any time for any purpose in the assembly. What is prohibitted in the Scriptures is a woman "teaching" as if she were an elder, with an elder's authority, in the assembly and exercising authority over the man. That's it! Scriptures disallow women from serving as bishop/elder/pastor specifically because doing so would contradict these two prohibitions. Neither prohibition prevents a woman from praying in the assembly, sharing a testimony, prophesying, or reporting what God is doing in the world. Nor does it prohibit women from teaching. She just may not teach in the role described above.


I agree.

I saw joint heir's question about authority, and I'll speak to it. But right now, I'm not quite myself. Caught some sort of crud. [:'(]



sadiebelle -> RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (4/20/2005 6:32:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cynthia
What do you think about women being pastors of other women? Some large churches have womens pastors.

Why the title? We have women who teach other women and they don't take on a title. I've never heard of that before...
...is it so she can to go to board meetings with the other men pastors/elders??



bzirk -> RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (4/20/2005 6:37:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JoToP

Joint Heir,
quote:

It is incorrect to say that the desire for women to use their gifts to the fullest is an imported one...it is a biblical one...at least for the people that seem to be on this board...

In Romans 12 we are taught to use our gifts in proportion to the amount of faith and grace we are given.....not to restrict them by gender....
(unless one wants to argue that men are given more of both)


Is all there is to Church what goes on in the Assembly? Are the gifts only confined there? If so, not many gifts are of much use, are they, seeing that the order of service requires that everyone rest so much of their gifts during worship. Gifts are used predominantly outside of the Worship Assembly, in day to day fellowship where believers are serving one another. The restriction of exercise of gift in the Assembly does not permanently nullify all gifts. This is an over generalization.



I agree with this too.



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