RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (Full Version)

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JesKlu -> RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (6/3/2008 5:13:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bro_Shane
What I said was there was not a word for "deaconess" until the third centry. There is not word for "deaconess" in Koine Greek. Also, if you would give the complete story here, those women did not hold office but helped minister to women in the church and helped with the baptism of women. Your understanding is mistaken.


I agree with you. Deacons were reserved for men. But there were women who held a similar role. But, they were more restricted, and like you said, helped with the baptisms of women (if adults), and I am sure they helped with the baptisms of children and infants too, but they didn't baptize themselves, (since that is only reserved for men), but they helped with the baptisms of women and children, but not for men though.

My denomination does ordain deaconesses, but they barely play any role in the Church. They are merely helpers, and not big helpers either, very minor role.

Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica



Asotos -> RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (6/3/2008 10:30:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bro_Shane

What I said was there was not a word for "deaconess" until the third centry. There is not word for "deaconess" in Koine Greek. Also, if you would give the complete story here, those women did not hold office but helped minister to women in the church and helped with the baptism of women. Your understanding is mistaken.



Koine Greek which was the Hellenistic and not Attica A or B is very simple, the word "διακονος" (deacon in English) is a noun 2nd declension (masculine/feminine). So it can mean both man and women depending how is used.

The term "διακόνισσα" deaconessa is first time found in 3rd century at the constitutions of the Apostles however

as διακονος (deacon which is also feminine in greek) referring to women is found earlier in Paul (Romans), Pliny the Younger, Clement, Origen, in some Apocryphal Texts like Paul Acts or the Letter of Clement (fake one) which they have historical value and many others. From the 4th Century and the first Ecumenical council there are numerous mentions of women deacons in the fathers and the Canons of councils.

As I said in the other post Both Clement and later St Chrysostom understand the Timothy 3:11 that refers to women deacons and not the wifes of deacons.

Therefore there are numerous evidences from the Ancient church to conclude that there where Women Deacons.
If u interested for the exact writings I will get them for u just give me time, or I can provide you with links to read them

quote:


Please do. You said your mother tongue is Greek - so are you taking this from a translation into modern Greek or are you reading the actual Koine Greek?

I read both , as I said Koine Creek is not hard for me since is very similar to the modern Greek and I have been taught ancient Greek for like 4 yrs in school.

so to the translation now. I will limit it to both verse 8 and 11 only since are the ones interested to us, and I will translate to the letter (direct translation) not adding interpretation:
I Timothy 3:8-8
Διακόνους ὡσαύτως σεμνούς, μὴ διλόγους, μὴ οἴνῳ πολλῷ προσέχοντας, μὴ αἰσχροκερδεῖς,

διακονους noun - accusative plural masculine Translation: Deacons
ωσαυτως(ὡς + αὔτως) adverb - Possible Translations: the same way, or likewise as thus
σεμνους adjective - accusative plural masculine Possible Translations: with dignity,Venerable, honorable,honest

Deacons the same way must be with dignity.
when he says the same way here he means following the rules of the of Bishop he mentioned earlier. And finishing in verse 10 the requirements. He starts again in 11.

γυναῖκας ὡσαύτως σεμνάς, μὴ διαβόλους, νηφαλίους, πιστὰς ἐν πᾶσι.
gynekas osautos semnas, mi diabolous, nefaleus ,pistas en pase

γυναικας noun - accusative plural feminine: Tranlation is: The Women:
The Grammatical Question is What women ? the answer is the Women Deacons

to be used as wife and be clearly should have be written as:

τας γυναῖκας των ὡσαύτως σεμνάς, μὴ διαβόλους, νηφαλίους, πιστὰς ἐν πᾶσι.

That will have show possession to someone, and the question then will have been: whose women ? and the answer: The deacons Women ( thus Wifes). but Is not written like that.
ωσαυτως(ὡς + αὔτως) adverb - Possible Translations: the same way, or likewise as thus
σεμνας adjective - accusative plural feminine Translation: with dignity (dignified),Venerable etc..


and then he continues to add more requirements for the women.

then at verse 12 paul speaks come to the male deacons and gives the requirement of one wife, however he doesnt say anything for the women if where women deacons so someone could assume that the women of verse 10 are the wifes of deacons. However that is not like that and Will answer after the translation:

anyway in order to conclude with the ranslation of that passage from the ones I have checked a more accurate to the letter of translation seems the American Standard Version:

8 Deacons in like manner must be grave, not double-tongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre; 9 holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience. 10 And let these also first be proved; then let them serve as deacons, if they be blameless. 11 Women in like manner must be grave, not slanderers, temperate, faithful in all things. 12 Let deacons be husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well. 13 For they that have served well as deacons gain to themselves a good standing, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.



Now lets come back why the Women in verse 10 are women deacons and not the wifes of deacons. First from the structure of the letter we see that Paul starts with the Bishops, however he doesn't mention any requirements for the wifes of the bishops, nothing explicitly. Then he goes to the Deacons using the phrase Διακόνους ὡσαύτως , "deacons the same way", and the question is: the same way with who ? And the answer is the same way with the Bishops. Then finishing with the Deacons he goes to women which I have said why they cant be the women of the deacons and he starts again "γυναῖκας ὡσαύτως", "women the same way", and again the question is: the same way with who ? And the answer is with the male deacons. Now in verse 12 Paul speaks only about the Wifes of the male deacons and of course the obvious question is what about the husbands of the female deacons if there where any. The answer is that female deacons where from the class of widows. (Timothy 5) something we see also in agreement with the letter of Ignatius of Antioch to Smyrneans (apostolic Father).



Bro_Shane -> RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (6/4/2008 9:20:55 AM)

Your first two points are points on which we agree.

However, there are problems:

Paul refers to people through this section without a definite article. The absence here is nothing more that grammatical consistency on Paul's part. Why, for example, did Paul not just write, "The women who are deacons..." That would have been much more simple and direct. The use of hosautos does not automoatically mean a change to a new office, but to a new or different group. Also, why would the mention of female deacons be sandwiched between the qualifications for male deacons? The context shows that including them in such a manner bears out that they are the wives of the deacons.

In Romans 16:1, there is nothing in the context to indicate that diakonos means anything other than servant. With your historical documents you are pieceing together a string of "could have" and "suggests." What we have in the text is clear. To begain to drag these extra-biblical sources in when there is no need only adds to confusion.

If women were allowed to hold the office of deacon, then why would Paul mention them apart from a list in which they were already included? Even to the point of giving a list that is quite redundant?

Now, other than Romans 16:11, there is no other place in the entire Bible where women are referred to as holding office. When the time came to appoint ppeople to take care of the widows in Acts, men were chosen.

I would also point out that even if we have historical evidence of women deacons (which we do, and I have not argued against it), historical evidence of a thing does not equate to biblibal actions. It is historical fact, but not biblically supported.



suzanned -> RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (6/4/2008 10:34:21 AM)

priesthood of believers has everything to do with leading and roles. Christ is the head of each member of the body of beleivers. We are a living body with the priestly responsibility of bringing others to Him.We are intertwined as members of one body with Christ as the head. Those who serve as leaders are to have the character and integrity that models the christian walk. Those who are mature in their faith, living out their walks that match their talk, those who can bring others to grow into carrying along the work of Christ.

While it is true that to believers God sends the Holy Spirit that will teach you all things, we do not know all things and Scripture tells us that we do not all have full knowledge and will not until we meet Christ face to face. Now we only know in part.

Interpretation is an important key in determining just what it is Paul as well as all the Scriptures is telling us. Certainly God could have made the Scriptures crystal clear without a doubt to bring forth what is the right and wrong way to live out our lives. And there are certainly very clear essentials of faith that are delivered throughout God's Word. That Jesus is our means to eternal life, that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one triune Godhead. That we are responsible to be Gods hands, feet and mouth on earth to bring others to Him. These are some of the messages that cannot be debated and are core to the faith. However, the Scriptures were written not in English, but ancient Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic. As they were spoken they were spoken to the people of that time, for them, but the messages are relevant eternal to all of us even today. However, how that message translates out must be held up to what the intention was at that time, for those people in what circumstances and what the message God was conveying. That is not so easy. It is something that people within the Scriptures struggled with as we continue to do today. That is why we depend on God to continue to reveal Himself to us, help us grow in wisdom and truth, to direct our paths, because we simply cant on our own. We are still works in progress.



notmycity -> RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (6/4/2008 12:38:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: suzanned
.... However, how that message translates out must be held up to what the intention was at that time, for those people in what circumstances and what the message God was conveying....


Questions:

Please see 1 Tim 2:11-14
• Do you believe in the creation account of Genesis?
• Do you believe “Adam was first formed, then Eve”?
• Do you believe “Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression”?


1 Tim 2:11-14
11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.


If we truly believe the account of creation, and then the fall as told in Genesis, then we know both occurred before the Holy Spirit penned 1 Tim 2:11-14.

The reasons in v 13-14 are every bit as true as a part of our common past as they were when first penned.

The doctrine has nothing to do with the “time”, as the creation account and the transgression were a part of THEIR past as they are a part of ours.



suzanned -> RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (6/4/2008 1:18:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: notmycity

quote:

ORIGINAL: suzanned
.... However, how that message translates out must be held up to what the intention was at that time, for those people in what circumstances and what the message God was conveying....


Questions:

Please see 1 Tim 2:11-14
• Do you believe in the creation account of Genesis?
• Do you believe “Adam was first formed, then Eve”?
• Do you believe “Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression”?


1 Tim 2:11-14
11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.


If we truly believe the account of creation, and then the fall as told in Genesis, then we know both occurred before the Holy Spirit penned 1 Tim 2:11-14.

The reasons in v 13-14 are every bit as true as a part of our common past as they were when first penned.

The doctrine has nothing to do with the “time”, as the creation account and the transgression were a part of THEIR past as they are a part of ours.

This is a good example of what I wrote previously about. Unless we understand the original translation, the intention and the circumstances, then we truly do not have the full understanding of what the message Paul was attempting to convey. We interpret colored by our preconceptions and our current culture and contexts. There are more than one understanding of these verses, and as we continue to explore and come to fuller understanding of the ancient languages, and how this correlates to the entire Scripture passage, chapter, book we will come to a fuller understanding of Paul's message. Because ideally we all want the full truth.



Bro_Shane -> RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (6/4/2008 3:22:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: suzanned

priesthood of believers has everything to do with leading and roles. Christ is the head of each member of the body of beleivers. We are a living body with the priestly responsibility of bringing others to Him.We are intertwined as members of one body with Christ as the head. Those who serve as leaders are to have the character and integrity that models the christian walk. Those who are mature in their faith, living out their walks that match their talk, those who can bring others to grow into carrying along the work of Christ.


Which is why we have qualifications for those who will hold office in the local congregation. Those qualifications exclude women from holding office. As I stated before, every born again person has a place in the ministry of the local church but not everyone holds office. I don't think anyone would argue against the priesthood of believers, but that does not have anything to do with who holds office, excepting that those who do should be born again. Other than that, two different issues.

quote:

While it is true that to believers God sends the Holy Spirit that will teach you all things, we do not know all things and Scripture tells us that we do not all have full knowledge and will not until we meet Christ face to face. Now we only know in part.


Look at the context of the scripture you quote here. It has no bearing on the issue at hand.

For the love of all that is holy, there is no interpretation here. We read the text, it does not contradict any other text, so we take it at face value.



notmycity -> RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (6/4/2008 3:32:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: suzanned

This is a good example of what I wrote previously about. Unless we understand the original translation, the intention and the circumstances, then we truly do not have the full understanding of what the message Paul was attempting to convey. We interpret colored by our preconceptions and our current culture and contexts. There are more than one understanding of these verses, and as we continue to explore and come to fuller understanding of the ancient languages, and how this correlates to the entire Scripture passage, chapter, book we will come to a fuller understanding of Paul's message. Because ideally we all want the full truth.


If what you say is true, then we cannot rely on any of the teachings, as they would all be up to private interpretation.



suzanned -> RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (6/4/2008 3:43:28 PM)

Holds office?

in 1 Timothy chpt 3 it begins, "If anyone sets his (he or she) heart on being an overseer he (he or she) desires a noble task.

The gift of leadership is a true ministry and is one from God given by God. One that Paul in description used the term In the same way, aka likewise....

The leaders were called to serve to bring others to maturity, this wasnt meant as an exclusive club but a worthy ministry to the community of believers.



suzanned -> RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (6/4/2008 3:48:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: notmycity

quote:

ORIGINAL: suzanned

This is a good example of what I wrote previously about. Unless we understand the original translation, the intention and the circumstances, then we truly do not have the full understanding of what the message Paul was attempting to convey. We interpret colored by our preconceptions and our current culture and contexts. There are more than one understanding of these verses, and as we continue to explore and come to fuller understanding of the ancient languages, and how this correlates to the entire Scripture passage, chapter, book we will come to a fuller understanding of Paul's message. Because ideally we all want the full truth.


If what you say is true, then we cannot rely on any of the teachings, as they would all be up to private interpretation.


That is just incorrect. If you have studied Scripture at all then you have to know that there are more than one interpretation of many various passages as to the intent and meaning.



suzanned -> RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (6/4/2008 3:51:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bro_Shane

quote:

ORIGINAL: suzanned

priesthood of believers has everything to do with leading and roles. Christ is the head of each member of the body of beleivers. We are a living body with the priestly responsibility of bringing others to Him.We are intertwined as members of one body with Christ as the head. Those who serve as leaders are to have the character and integrity that models the christian walk. Those who are mature in their faith, living out their walks that match their talk, those who can bring others to grow into carrying along the work of Christ.


Which is why we have qualifications for those who will hold office in the local congregation. Those qualifications exclude women from holding office. As I stated before, every born again person has a place in the ministry of the local church but not everyone holds office. I don't think anyone would argue against the priesthood of believers, but that does not have anything to do with who holds office, excepting that those who do should be born again. Other than that, two different issues.

quote:

While it is true that to believers God sends the Holy Spirit that will teach you all things, we do not know all things and Scripture tells us that we do not all have full knowledge and will not until we meet Christ face to face. Now we only know in part.


Look at the context of the scripture you quote here. It has no bearing on the issue at hand.

For the love of all that is holy, there is no interpretation here. We read the text, it does not contradict any other text, so we take it at face value.



Who exactly is "we"? because there are many Christians that do not interpret these verses and come to the same conclusion as "we" /you do.

Of course the priesthood of believers would have to do with ministry. Read through the old testament.



notmycity -> RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (6/4/2008 4:28:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: suzanned
Who exactly is "we"? because there are many Christians that do not interpret these verses and come to the same conclusion as "we" /you do.


Then there are those of us who need not “interpret”, but simply believe the Holy Scriptures as they are written.



Bro_Shane -> RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (6/4/2008 5:14:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: suzanned

Holds office?

in 1 Timothy chpt 3 it begins, "If anyone sets his (he or she) heart on being an overseer he (he or she) desires a noble task.


You keep trying to change the meaning. There is nothing here to suggest both men and women are meant here. There were no women bishops in the early church. Again, you are basing the above on possible alternate translations of the Greek which, by context, do not fit.

quote:

The gift of leadership is a true ministry and is one from God given by God. One that Paul in description used the term In the same way, aka likewise....

The leaders were called to serve to bring others to maturity, this wasnt meant as an exclusive club but a worthy ministry to the community of believers.


No one is saying it was. You keep trying to change the subject. They are different subjects and one does not have a bearing on the other as to allowing women to hold office in the church.

quote:

Who exactly is "we"? because there are many Christians that do not interpret these verses and come to the same conclusion as "we" /you do.

Of course the priesthood of believers would have to do with ministry. Read through the old testament.


The "we" are those who seek the truth, not the forwarding of an agenda. And, no matter how many times you say it, and how many ways you tryt to make it fit, the priesthood of believers has no bearing (other than their born again status) as to who can hold office in the church.

Also, you can keep crying "interpret" at the top of your lungs, but there is nothing to interpret here. You refuse to agree only because doing so would cut the legs off your argument.



suzanned -> RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (6/4/2008 6:37:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bro_Shane

quote:

ORIGINAL: suzanned

Holds office?

in 1 Timothy chpt 3 it begins, "If anyone sets his (he or she) heart on being an overseer he (he or she) desires a noble task.


You keep trying to change the meaning. There is nothing here to suggest both men and women are meant here. There were no women bishops in the early church. Again, you are basing the above on possible alternate translations of the Greek which, by context, do not fit.

quote:

The gift of leadership is a true ministry and is one from God given by God. One that Paul in description used the term In the same way, aka likewise....

The leaders were called to serve to bring others to maturity, this wasnt meant as an exclusive club but a worthy ministry to the community of believers.


No one is saying it was. You keep trying to change the subject. They are different subjects and one does not have a bearing on the other as to allowing women to hold office in the church.

quote:

Who exactly is "we"? because there are many Christians that do not interpret these verses and come to the same conclusion as "we" /you do.

Of course the priesthood of believers would have to do with ministry. Read through the old testament.


The "we" are those who seek the truth, not the forwarding of an agenda. And, no matter how many times you say it, and how many ways you tryt to make it fit, the priesthood of believers has no bearing (other than their born again status) as to who can hold office in the church.

Also, you can keep crying "interpret" at the top of your lungs, but there is nothing to interpret here. You refuse to agree only because doing so would cut the legs off your argument.


All Scripture is interpreted.

So you do not believe that the priesthood of believers has anything to do with leadership withinn the Christian community and only is about being born again? Is that right?



Bro_Shane -> RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (6/4/2008 9:37:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: suzanned

All Scripture is interpreted.




No. All scriptute has to be translated, but not all has to be "interpreted." If you ask me directionsand I tell you to go down the road one mile and turn left, do you simply do it or do you pull over and try to figure out what I really meant?

quote:

So you do not believe that the priesthood of believers has anything to do with leadership withinn the Christian community and only is about being born again? Is that right?


Let's look at the scripture that refers to the royal priesthood:

I Peter 2:9-12 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: [10] Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy. [11] Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul; [12] Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.

From this scripture we see hat we, born again children of God, are set apart to praise God for our salvation. Not only that, but we, as Gentiles, should praise God for accepting us through faith in Christ. We should live in a way that, even though some may ridicule us, our example may lead them to salvation through Christ. Note carefully that the context and the immediate text does not speak to the leadership or the qualifications for leadership in the local church. Each member of the local congregation is expected to strive to do the above - it is a part of the general ministry of that local congregation to the community. There is nothing there to support the point you are trying to make as it concerns the offices of the church.



suzanned -> RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (6/4/2008 11:56:25 PM)

To translate is to interpret. Even if it is literal understanding it is interpreted

The priesthood of believers shows the community of Christ with Jesus as our foundation. We are responsible to be Christ to others to bring them to know Him. We all share in His priestly work. Using our giftedness as given by God for the ministry of building each other up and serving one another in agape love.



Bro_Shane -> RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (6/5/2008 12:30:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: suzanned

To translate is to interpret. Even if it is literal understanding it is interpreted

The priesthood of believers shows the community of Christ with Jesus as our foundation. We are responsible to be Christ to others to bring them to know Him. We all share in His priestly work. Using our giftedness as given by God for the ministry of building each other up and serving one another in agape love.


We will just have to agree to disagree on the first point, which pretty much insures we will never come close to anything meaningful in this discussion.

On your second point, I agree with what you wrote here. However, this is what all of us are supposed to do regardless of whether we hold an office in the church or not. It does not mean all can hold office. If it did, then there would be no qualifications laid out anyplace else in scripture for those offices.



notmycity -> RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (6/5/2008 12:01:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: suzanned

All Scripture is interpreted.



My wife and I have both notice that when it comes to Scriptural teachings that people “feel good” and positive about, they are quite happy to take those Scriptures at face value.

However...

These very same folks (when confronted with doctrines that differ with their opinion or life style) start using the “I” word when confronted with truth that does not coincide with their opinions and/or traditions.

Example: We haven’t yet met anyone claiming Christ who would argue Scriptures regarding grace, salvation or eternal life.

When it comes to “leadership” within the church, that is perhaps the most hotly contested doctrine, because it deals with PRIDE.

Gen 3:5
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Eve was not content to be a “help meet” for Adam as she was created. She wanted to be more and coveted to “be as gods”.

In keeping with the OP, a woman desiring to an elder or teacher within the church has erred every bit as much as Eve in Genesis 3.

Most men who are church “teachers/leaders” are in error as well if they ignore the NT commands regarding church structure and gathering. Most do ignore the commands.



JEGUINN -> RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (6/5/2008 12:40:31 PM)

wow...reading all the posts and the detail that goes in to translating the Greek language is very impressive and definitely encourages me to think about and pray for God's guidance in understanding scripture and His Word!

My husband and I have discussed this...prayed about it....and this is the first time I've read and seen the Greek translated and then other's arguments/opinions/conclusions/etc.

I truly believe that men have the responsibility of taking leadership in a church. In a marriage, the sinful nature of a woman is to take the lead; the man's is to submit and allow the woman to lead. I find that this fleshy nature has trickled (well, maybe that's a underemphasized...ENGULFED!) the church today. Can I simply, humbly say as a woman, that shame on us for taking the lead, shame on men for allowing us. I think what it comes down to is what is going to glorify God the MOST. Ya know?

I'm not a student of Greek and Hebrew or translating the Bible, but seeking God in this, I can confidently say that I'm overjoyed when men in the church take the lead and lead. In turn, the women can tend to the younger women, children, each other, making their homes an environment that rich in God's love, supporting and HELPING her husband, and if they're not married, then ministering to families and other believers.

In our weaknesses (men - submitting, women - leading), God's power is perfected...



notmycity -> RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (6/5/2008 2:10:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JEGUINN

wow...reading all the posts and the detail that goes in to translating the Greek language is very impressive and definitely encourages me to think about and pray for God's guidance in understanding scripture and His Word!

My husband and I have discussed this...prayed about it....and this is the first time I've read and seen the Greek translated and then other's arguments/opinions/conclusions/etc.

I truly believe that men have the responsibility of taking leadership in a church. In a marriage, the sinful nature of a woman is to take the lead; the man's is to submit and allow the woman to lead. I find that this fleshy nature has trickled (well, maybe that's a underemphasized...ENGULFED!) the church today. Can I simply, humbly say as a woman, that shame on us for taking the lead, shame on men for allowing us. I think what it comes down to is what is going to glorify God the MOST. Ya know?

I'm not a student of Greek and Hebrew or translating the Bible, but seeking God in this, I can confidently say that I'm overjoyed when men in the church take the lead and lead. In turn, the women can tend to the younger women, children, each other, making their homes an environment that rich in God's love, supporting and HELPING her husband, and if they're not married, then ministering to families and other believers.

In our weaknesses (men - submitting, women - leading), God's power is perfected...


God will bless you for your belief, Sister. Also, your description of the problem with too many men is right on point. That was the first sin Adam committed, that of submitting to his wife.

Gen 3:17
17 And unto Adam he said, BECAUSE THOU HAST HEARKENED UNTO THE VOICE OF THY WIFE, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

Too many overlook the fact that Adam was condemned by God for submitting to his wife, which ultimately resulted in the total fall of mankind.

Very serious business...



Asotos -> RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (6/6/2008 7:32:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bro_Shane
Paul refers to people through this section without a definite article. The absence here is nothing more that grammatical consistency on Paul's part. Why, for example, did Paul not just write, "The women who are deacons..." That would have been much more simple and direct.


As I said before extra attention should be taken that he doesn't mention anything about the wife of bishop. The wife of a bishop is less important than of deacon ? Another thing that needs to be taken attention here is that for the Bishop he is uses Singular not Plural and from the context is obvious we speak for male bishops. For the Deacon says "8 Deacons in like manner must be grave ....", why plural and not singular again. The answer comes in the 11, Deacons as I said before refers to both man and women, in 11 he clarifies that explicitly.



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The use of hosautos does not automoatically mean a change to a new office, but to a new or different group. Also, why would the mention of female deacons be sandwiched between the qualifications for male deacons? The context shows that including them in such a manner bears out that they are the wives of the deacons.


Osautos means the same way as in the office of bishop now in the office of deacons which are both women and man and he clarifies that in 11.


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In Romans 16:1, there is nothing in the context to indicate that diakonos means anything other than servant. With your historical documents you are pieceing together a string of "could have" and "suggests." What we have in the text is clear. To begain to drag these extra-biblical sources in when there is no need only adds to confusion.


We all are deacons of Christ , Paul uses that term for himself as well, however, in Romans 16:11 is obvious he speaks she is Deacon of the Church that means she has the ministry of Deacon. IF Paul wanted to say that she offers any kind of service he wouldn't have use the nun Deacon but the verb "diakwnw"

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If women were allowed to hold the office of deacon, then why would Paul mention them apart from a list in which they were already included? Even to the point of giving a list that is quite redundant?


Paul letter is obvious to everyone of those days and especially to Timothy who was his helper and companion.
And is obvious to everyone today about the meaning when he reads it without presuppositions

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I would also point out that even if we have historical evidence of women deacons (which we do, and I have not argued against it), historical evidence of a thing does not equate to biblibal actions. It is historical fact, but not biblically supported.


In Early church there where no scripture in the way we know it today, the today Scripture is a result of the "Council of Carthage", the people that defined what we should read and what we should accept as canonical books and God inspired, those are the same people that say, that in the Church where Women deacons. Especially when you have Clement a prominent figure of the ancient church and disciple of the Apostles saying the same thing. Those people heard and followed the teaching of the Apostles, didn't try to figure what the Scripture Says (as we do today), they have been taught directly by the apostles.

Also the fact that there are lots of references in the ancient church about women deacons makes it an actual fact of early Christian church.



Asotos -> RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (6/6/2008 9:23:56 AM)

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ORIGINAL: notmycity

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ORIGINAL: suzanned
Who exactly is "we"? because there are many Christians that do not interpret these verses and come to the same conclusion as "we" /you do.


Then there are those of us who need not “interpret”, but simply believe the Holy Scriptures as they are written.



Interpret is a means of understanding the context and the meaning of the written text in accordance with the spirit of the bible and especially the spirit of the New testament, you cant say I believe as they are written cause then someone will ask you "Do you understand what you are reading?"



Asotos -> RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (6/6/2008 9:39:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: notmycity


God will bless you for your belief, Sister. Also, your description of the problem with too many men is right on point. That was the first sin Adam committed, that of submitting to his wife.

Gen 3:17
17 And unto Adam he said, BECAUSE THOU HAST HEARKENED UNTO THE VOICE OF THY WIFE, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

Too many overlook the fact that Adam was condemned by God for submitting to his wife, which ultimately resulted in the total fall of mankind.

Very serious business...


Adam condemned for not following the command of the God and instead followed what his wife told him against the will of God. That is very different to be condemned for only following what your wife is telling, is like by Default accepting that what every woman tells on her husband is wrong and against the will of God. More over Adam instead of repenting and asking forgiveness he even goes further in his sin and blames indirectly God
"12.And the man said, The woman whom you gave to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat."

So not only disobeyed Gods command but he claims innocence from error and was God fault.

I hope all Christians out there you love your wifes as Christ loved his Church(to the Death) and don't have them as lesser beens cause in Christ there is no man and woman nor Greek or Jew etc..



suzanned -> RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (6/6/2008 10:54:32 AM)

The ideals you set forth as "feel good" Scriptures notmy are called essentials of faith and they are the core to Christianity. It isnt about feeling good, it is about salvation and the core of Christianity.

To say that all Scripture can be read at face value without understanding the intention of the author, the surrounding verses, chapter, book, the variable of meanings from the original language presented, the historical significance, is limiting at best.

The church "offices" were functional means in the NT times in which all were important to carry out the functioning of the church. They werent meant for vocations, but to serve the community. They were based on giftedness and the character traits (maturity, integrity) of the community. I will agree with whoever stated that the hot debate over women in church is about pride although I am sure we wont agree on who is being prideful.

There is no scripture that states the role of elder or overseer must be male. To take that stance you have to be interpreting this as such. We see a NT church emerging that is bringing in new cultures, traditions, mindsets, and Paul in his letters is preoccupied with keeping the truth intact and keeping harmony as the freedom in Christ takes hold within these churches. Remember the church converts were primarily women, gentiles and slaves initially. Those were the first to have ears to hear the word. But freedom didnt mean to become radical and throw out the current conditions and cultures that were in place. Instead, as the Word took hold of all people, the progression of Christianity would serve to bring the intended equality and freedom. Jesus, the disciples, and Paul all echoed the same messages, building up, love in Christ, empowerment, serving instead of hierarchial order, give instead of take, etc. It has been over 2000 years and we are still progressing toward perfection.



JEGUINN -> RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (6/6/2008 12:08:28 PM)

"There is no scripture that states the role of elder or overseer must be male."
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I Timothy 3 - "If anyone sets his heart on being an overseer,[a] he desires a noble task. 2Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife"

Doesn't that, taken at face value, even in Greek, indicate that they are male? Deacons, yes, i understand the desire for discussion, debate, etc., but isn't is clear that the head leaders, elders, overseers are male?



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