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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 10/1/2008 12:53:41 AM
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JamesL5
Posts: 97
Joined: 8/26/2007
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Popsilusjesus,
I don't mean to jump on the bandwagon but you seem to have made some claims and/or statements that appear to be scripturally unsound. I understand your lack of coherency at the moment since it is 1:00 AM at wherever your at, but I don't think that justifies some of your radical statements you have made. I don't mean to take sides but I have respect for Stephanos since I know that he has excellent knowledge of the bible. I have been reading his threads and quite frankly, I think Stephanos has been 99.9% accurate in all his post that is related to scripture.
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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 10/1/2008 1:17:32 AM
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Stephanos
Posts: 1115
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in KC MO
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
ORIGINAL: Stephanos
Then use scripture to prove me wrong!
Show me where Deborah was ever considered a priestess!
Deborah wasn't a priestess, but she was a prophetess and the leader of Israel.
No Complementarian that I know will EVER say that the Bible forbids women prophets. The reason is Prophets are not equal in anyway to priests, elders, deacons, pastors, shepherds, ect. Prophets receive a word from God and give it to the people. This does not conflict with what Paul says in Corinthians, Timothy, Titus, ect.
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quote:
Show me where in the greek does it prove that Junia was A) a female, B) an apostle
Junia is a feminine name in Greek, there is no reason to believe she wasn't a she; the apostle part comes from the text itself. Ro. 16
If you paid attention you would know that a feminine noun has NO relation to physical gender. Again, Pneuma (spirit) is a Feminine noun, Yet the Holy Spirit is NOT a female. Again, Prisca AND Aquila BOTH are feminine nouns. But one IS a male! Again, feminine endings to nouns in the Greek has NO relation to physical gender.
As for the apostle, again, the word "en" is the 5th most used word in the Greek New Testament. It has several DOZEN meanings that can be applied. To say that it HAS to mean "among the Apostles" thus signifying they were apostles, is inaccurite as "with the Apostles" thus signifying they worked with the Apostles but were not ones themselves is JUST as gramatically correct. Add to this the fact that the bible teaches that apostles were directly called by God. Not a general call, but a physical in person calling. Only 13 (14 if you count Judas) ever recieve this calling. Notice people like Timothy and Apollos are NEVER given the title Apostle.
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Show me why Diakonos in Romans 16:1 in regards to Pheobe, HAS to be a reference to the office of Deacon.
There is no reason to believe that this references was not a reference to the office of Deacon, and we know that the early church had women Deacon's (based on the writings of the early church)
Partially right, partially wrong. You see, the only group that had and supported women Deacons (the office) were the heretical Donatist sect. No orthodox church had women serving in the office of Deacon. And again I challenge you to show me where.
As for the Greek, diakanos does not always mean a reference to the Office of Deacon. Strictly speaking the word means servant, and the Office uses this word because the Office OF Deacon, is a servants roll (Acts 6). But when we look at 1st Timothy, it quite clearly says that the Office of Deacon has a requirement of "husband of one wife". Last time I checked women could not be husbands.
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Show me in Gods word where there EVER is a Godly female as the spiritual head of a group. WHere is there ONE Godly priestess. Show me ONE single passage that points to a woman EVER holding such an office and being right in God's eyes for doing so!
The new testament teaches that we are all priests (even women). This is one of the tenants of the Reformation i.e. The priesthood of all believers.
The priesthood of believers is a reference to the fact that Jesus Christ is our mediator with God, and we do not need any mediator here on earth. The Catholic position is that even with the sacrifice of Christ Jesus, man still needs a mediator on earth. The reformation teaches that all believers can go before God in person. This is also a reference to OT Temple/Tabernacle practices where only the Priests could go into the Temple, and only the High Priest could go into the Holy of Holies. WIth Christ Jesus shreding the curtian, believers can now go to God, go into the Holy of Holies themselves, with out man to be their mediator.
The Priesthood of Believers has no relation witht he concept of women pastors/priests/elders/ect in relation to leading the church in corporate worship, and teaching. And no Reformer would have supported women as pastors/elders/priests/ect.
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Feelings are all well and good, but the bible is the Word of God, and it trumps "feelings" and "opinions" 100% of the time.
I agree, the Word of God even trumps the misguided traditions in the church. So when the "tradition" of the church places restrictions on a woman's service to God that doesn't come from God's word it must be rejected.
Seeing as the bible is very clear that women can not or should not be pastors in any way shape or form, this is not tradition but biblcial truth!
Let me add a concluding remark. I have no qualms in saying that no woman EVER has been led by God to be a Pastor. Any who say that God did led them are at best being decieved, not able to truly hear the voice of God (majority of women pastors); or at worse they KNOW they are lying and that God never called them, but say so for their own personal benifit (mostly WOF women pastors like Joyce Myers, etc)
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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 10/1/2008 1:18:41 AM
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Bro_Shane
Posts: 986
Joined: 8/4/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
ORIGINAL: Stephanos
Then use scripture to prove me wrong!
Show me where Deborah was ever considered a priestess!
Deborah wasn't a priestess, but she was a prophetess and the leader of Israel.
quote:
Show me where in the greek does it prove that Junia was A) a female, B) an apostle
Junia is a feminine name in Greek, there is no reason to believe she wasn't a she; the apostle part comes from the text itself. Ro. 16
quote:
Show me why Diakonos in Romans 16:1 in regards to Pheobe, HAS to be a reference to the office of Deacon.
There is no reason to believe that this references was not a reference to the office of Deacon, and we know that the early church had women Deacon's (based on the writings of the early church)
quote:
Show me in Gods word where there EVER is a Godly female as the spiritual head of a group. WHere is there ONE Godly priestess. Show me ONE single passage that points to a woman EVER holding such an office and being right in God's eyes for doing so!
The new testament teaches that we are all priests (even women). This is one of the tenants of the Reformation i.e. The priesthood of all believers.
quote:
Feelings are all well and good, but the bible is the Word of God, and it trumps "feelings" and "opinions" 100% of the time.
I agree, the Word of God even trumps the misguided traditions in the church. So when the "tradition" of the church places restrictions on a woman's service to God that doesn't come from God's word it must be rejected.
Deborah was a leader of Israel, but Prophetess is not an office of the church. Even if Junia was an apostle (barring the common use of the word not referring to a specific office), neither is apostle an office of the church. Trying to imply the priesthood of believers somehow trumps the direct commands of God concerning church leadership is a stretch, and one I am surprised you would try to make. As for Phoebe, there is no reason to believe there is any use other than the common usage for diakonos here. There were female "deacons" in some of the early churches, but they did not hold the same office as male deacons and mainly assisted in the baptism of women.
If something is done by direct and clear instruction of God it is not a tradition. It is obedince to God's stated will.
_____________________________
Prayer is not where we change God's mind, it is where He changes ours.
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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 10/1/2008 1:33:02 AM
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Bro_Shane
Posts: 986
Joined: 8/4/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PopsiLufsJesus
I am actually going to bow out of this. You all have so much more years of study then I do myself. I am still learning. I guess I can't say 100% sure where I stand...
I've recently read the book "Why Not Women." I don't know if any of you have heard of it. And it was written by two men and they make some good points, supported by scripture, that would lead me to believe that much of what the church teaches as a women's position is based on tradition and not Biblical truth.
But again, I could show you all of that, but it doesn't mean I know that I know.
I apologize for my rash statements. I still would stand by them, but I will come back when I am CONVINCED about where I stand.
Sorry guys.
Pops
The best thing to do is to pray and find the most unbiased information as possible. Always refer back to scripture as scripture has authority over what anyone says. Be sure, when someone uses scripture, to go to your Bible and get the context. Make sure what is being used is being used correctly.
Prayer, study, and the leading of the Spirit will lead you to the truth on the matter. Until you reach that point, remember that no matter how much we disagree on this issue we are still brothers and sisters in Christ, washed clean by His blood, and will one day worship together in His presence.
_____________________________
Prayer is not where we change God's mind, it is where He changes ours.
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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 10/1/2008 2:12:19 AM
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benelchi
Posts: 2829
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Stephanos
quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
ORIGINAL: Stephanos
Then use scripture to prove me wrong!
Show me where Deborah was ever considered a priestess!
Deborah wasn't a priestess, but she was a prophetess and the leader of Israel.
No Complementarian that I know will EVER say that the Bible forbids women prophets. The reason is Prophets are not equal in anyway to priests, elders, deacons, pastors, shepherds, ect. Prophets receive a word from God and give it to the people. This does not conflict with what Paul says in Corinthians, Timothy, Titus, ect.
Show me from the bible where the job of a teaching pastor differs from that of a Prophet or Prophetess.
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quote:
quote:
Show me where in the greek does it prove that Junia was A) a female, B) an apostle
Junia is a feminine name in Greek, there is no reason to believe she wasn't a she; the apostle part comes from the text itself. Ro. 16
If you paid attention you would know that a feminine noun has NO relation to physical gender. Again, Pneuma (spirit) is a Feminine noun, Yet the Holy Spirit is NOT a female. Again, Prisca AND Aquila BOTH are feminine nouns. But one IS a male! Again, feminine endings to nouns in the Greek has NO relation to physical gender.
Actually, if you had paid attention, you would know that I said feminine name and not feminine noun. While both Greek and Hebrew allow for female names to be derived from masculine nouns, their use is typically very gender specific. For example, The Hebrew name Rachel, although masculine in form, is never mistakenly indicates a man. Even in our society today, one would be quite surprised to find out that a Rachel was a he.
quote:
As for the apostle, again, the word "en" is the 5th most used word in the Greek New Testament. It has several DOZEN meanings that can be applied. To say that it HAS to mean "among the Apostles" thus signifying they were apostles, is inaccurite as "with the Apostles" thus signifying they worked with the Apostles but were not ones themselves is JUST as gramatically correct. Add to this the fact that the bible teaches that apostles were directly called by God. Not a general call, but a physical in person calling. Only 13 (14 if you count Judas) ever recieve this calling. Notice people like Timothy and Apollos are NEVER given the title Apostle.
No, it is not just as "grammatically correct"; it is lingustic gymastics used by those trying to escape the clear indication in the text.
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quote:
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Show me why Diakonos in Romans 16:1 in regards to Pheobe, HAS to be a reference to the office of Deacon.
There is no reason to believe that this references was not a reference to the office of Deacon, and we know that the early church had women Deacon's (based on the writings of the early church)
Partially right, partially wrong. You see, the only group that had and supported women Deacons (the office) were the heretical Donatist sect. No orthodox church had women serving in the office of Deacon. And again I challenge you to show me where.
First Council of Nicea, 325 AD
quote:
As for the Greek, diakanos does not always mean a reference to the Office of Deacon. Strictly speaking the word means servant, and the Office uses this word because the Office OF Deacon, is a servants roll (Acts 6). But when we look at 1st Timothy, it quite clearly says that the Office of Deacon has a requirement of "husband of one wife". Last time I checked women could not be husbands.
And using that same overly strict interpretation of this text, Paul himself could never be an elder or a deacon because he himself did not have a wife.
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quote:
quote:
Show me in Gods word where there EVER is a Godly female as the spiritual head of a group. WHere is there ONE Godly priestess. Show me ONE single passage that points to a woman EVER holding such an office and being right in God's eyes for doing so!
The new testament teaches that we are all priests (even women). This is one of the tenants of the Reformation i.e. The priesthood of all believers.
The priesthood of believers is a reference to the fact that Jesus Christ is our mediator with God, and we do not need any mediator here on earth. The Catholic position is that even with the sacrifice of Christ Jesus, man still needs a mediator on earth. The reformation teaches that all believers can go before God in person. This is also a reference to OT Temple/Tabernacle practices where only the Priests could go into the Temple, and only the High Priest could go into the Holy of Holies. WIth Christ Jesus shreding the curtian, believers can now go to God, go into the Holy of Holies themselves, with out man to be their mediator.
The Priesthood of Believers has no relation witht he concept of women pastors/priests/elders/ect in relation to leading the church in corporate worship, and teaching. And no Reformer would have supported women as pastors/elders/priests/ect.
Actually this is not quite accurate. The modern change in a woman's role in ministry began with the Refomer's One of Luther's most outspoken advocates was Argula von Stauffer (1492-1554). Luther says of her "She alone, among these monsters, carries on with firm faith, though, she admits, not without inner trembling. She is a singular instrument of Christ." She was arrested by the officials of the Catholic church because she had "conducted religious meetings in her home, and had officiated at secret funerals in cemeteries." As a direct result of the reformation, by the early 1800's there were many women pastors.
quote:
quote:
quote:
Feelings are all well and good, but the bible is the Word of God, and it trumps "feelings" and "opinions" 100% of the time.
I agree, the Word of God even trumps the misguided traditions in the church. So when the "tradition" of the church places restrictions on a woman's service to God that doesn't come from God's word it must be rejected.
Seeing as the bible is very clear that women can not or should not be pastors in any way shape or form, this is not tradition but biblcial truth!
Let me add a concluding remark. I have no qualms in saying that no woman EVER has been led by God to be a Pastor. Any who say that God did led them are at best being decieved, not able to truly hear the voice of God (majority of women pastors); or at worse they KNOW they are lying and that God never called them, but say so for their own personal benifit (mostly WOF women pastors like Joyce Myers, etc)
Actually this is an opinion, and one that is not shared by many biblical scholars.
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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 10/1/2008 5:28:12 AM
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wintery
Posts: 1809
Joined: 2/1/2007
From: nw alabama
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Godhead
Women are to be subject to men because it was Eve who sinned first and enticed her husband. (1 Timothy 2:13-14) It is a punishment ordained by God, as also men were to work the ground by the sweet of his brow. women should show reverence for God.
I hope no one allows Scripture to be used to cause them to be "subject" to anyone, as if in "punishment".
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
(John 1:12)
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
(Romans 8:17)
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
(Galatians 3:28)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Godhead
Muslim Women put Christian women to shame in that area and they do it as a sign of devotion to God. and that I can respect.
No way. This is an unbelievable example. I can't believe anyone would say this or stand by and watch it be said. That is not an example of godly behavior---how do you go outside Christianity for an example of New Testament "devotion to God"?? This constitutes an oxymoron.
What I can respect is this: But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.
(Luke 11:28)
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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 10/1/2008 7:21:28 AM
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Marksman
Posts: 271
Joined: 6/7/2007
From: Drouin, Victoria, Australia
Status: offline
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quote:
Paul specifically talks about paying ministry leaders.
Can you give me the verses please benelchi as I have not found any.
_____________________________
God Bless America
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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 10/1/2008 7:39:46 AM
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Marksman
Posts: 271
Joined: 6/7/2007
From: Drouin, Victoria, Australia
Status: offline
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quote:
Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is when TRAINED religious leaders through schemes and planning try to take away the attention from Jesus Christ and put it on themselves by saying the works of the Holy Spirit are done out of satanic authority.
There were no trained religious leaders in the NT church. Their appointment was on the basis of quality of life, so the contentioon is without foundation.
_____________________________
God Bless America
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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 10/1/2008 7:53:08 AM
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Marksman
Posts: 271
Joined: 6/7/2007
From: Drouin, Victoria, Australia
Status: offline
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quote:
Show me from the bible where the job of a teaching pastor differs from that of a Prophet or Prophetess
Can you show me where the term "teaching pastor"is found in the NT?
_____________________________
God Bless America
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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 10/1/2008 9:06:05 AM
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Stephanos
Posts: 1115
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in KC MO
Status: offline
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Ummm...Again...Prisca and Aquila are BOTH feminine names based on their declension patterns. Since Junia is used ONCE in the bible, it is imposible to tell if they are male or female. However based on how Paul uses the word "sungeneis" in Romans (see 9:3; 16:7; 16:11; 16;21) it is clear he is using this term to refer to his brother Jews.
As for "en" if you would like I could borrow a friends Lexicon (its 160 dollars and I have not gotten mine yet) that every true Greek scholar recognizes as the best, and I can show you that "en" has several DOZEN usages in the NT alone (not including its uses in the LXX). In and with are very different meanings, but both are possible translations for this word. And seeing as there were only 13 Apostles EVER, I highly doubt this passage (Romans 16:7) is calling these two Apostles. It is highly more likely, that Paul is singling these two out to the believers in Rome, telling them that these two really impressed the Apostles, and worked well with them, so the church in Rome should really take care of and work with these two. Sort of like saying Brother Bob was outstanding at the Pastors lunch in. But Brother Bob is not a Pastor, he was the one preparing the food for the pastors. (notice that at...yep another possible translation of the Greek "en")
As for the Council of Nicea...You do know that what they are saying women "deacons" and if I am not mistaken they dont call them deacons, but rather "sanctimoniales"; that their SOUL job is to assist fellow women in preperation for baptism. And that they should be well versed in order to teach the women they are helping.
Oh...And Paul was not a elder or a deacon. And he would not have said he was. He was an Apostle. Apostle and elder are quite different you know. As for "husband of one wife" and "having children who believe", do you know why Paul says this. Because how a man runs his home is evidence on how he will lead his flock. The truth remains however, that elders and deacons, are limited to men.
I am going to end with this fact. Look at the denominations that openly and actively support women ordination. You have the UMC, PCUSA, Anglican, groups that are now too promoting homosexual unions and homosexual pastors. You have a good number of AoG and other charismatic groups falling for heretical WOF teachings.
I do think there is a connection there.
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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 10/1/2008 10:00:16 AM
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benelchi
Posts: 2829
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Marksman
quote:
Paul specifically talks about paying ministry leaders.
Can you give me the verses please benelchi as I have not found any.
I and others have posted these verses for you before, remember you have been making these claims for a long time now. For most of that time you kept referring to your "paper" that would prove your point of view, but would never provide it. Now that you have, I have read your paper and I am just as unconvinced of your position.
< Message edited by benelchi -- 10/1/2008 2:00:10 PM >
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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 10/1/2008 10:12:00 AM
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benelchi
Posts: 2829
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Stephanos
Ummm...Again...Prisca and Aquila are BOTH feminine names based on their declension patterns. Since Junia is used ONCE in the bible, it is imposible to tell if they are male or female. However based on how Paul uses the word "sungeneis" in Romans (see 9:3; 16:7; 16:11; 16;21) it is clear he is using this term to refer to his brother Jews.
When looking to see how a name is used, scholars look to all literature of the day, and almost all scholars after examining the evidence are convinced that Junia is a female.
quote:
As for "en" if you would like I could borrow a friends Lexicon (its 160 dollars and I have not gotten mine yet) that every true Greek scholar recognizes as the best, and I can show you that "en" has several DOZEN usages in the NT alone (not including its uses in the LXX). In and with are very different meanings, but both are possible translations for this word. And seeing as there were only 13 Apostles EVER, I highly doubt this passage (Romans 16:7) is calling these two Apostles. It is highly more likely, that Paul is singling these two out to the believers in Rome, telling them that these two really impressed the Apostles, and worked well with them, so the church in Rome should really take care of and work with these two. Sort of like saying Brother Bob was outstanding at the Pastors lunch in. But Brother Bob is not a Pastor, he was the one preparing the food for the pastors. (notice that at...yep another possible translation of the Greek "en")
This is a good example of the misuse of a Lexicon. Many words in Greek and Hebrew have very broad definitions (especially Hebrew), but withing the constraints of grammar and context the valid choices are quite limited. Looking at a Lexicon and "picking" the meaning you like best is always a recipe for a very badly mistaken interpretation. My favorite example: The verb 'achal' in Hebrew means: to eat, to be eaten, to devour, to be devoured, to feed, to be fed, to burn, to be burned, to digest. If someone were to ask you over for dinner, don't you think it would be important to know if you were being asked to eat dinner with them or being asked to be eaten by them?
quote:
As for the Council of Nicea...You do know that what they are saying women "deacons" and if I am not mistaken they dont call them deacons, but rather "sanctimoniales"; that their SOUL job is to assist fellow women in preperation for baptism. And that they should be well versed in order to teach the women they are helping.
Oh...And Paul was not a elder or a deacon. And he would not have said he was. He was an Apostle. Apostle and elder are quite different you know. As for "husband of one wife" and "having children who believe", do you know why Paul says this. Because how a man runs his home is evidence on how he will lead his flock. The truth remains however, that elders and deacons, are limited to men.
Are you trying to tell us that the office of Apostle which held an authority even higher than that of the elders was subject to a less stringent standard?
quote:
I am going to end with this fact. Look at the denominations that openly and actively support women ordination. You have the UMC, PCUSA, Anglican, groups that are now too promoting homosexual unions and homosexual pastors. You have a good number of AoG and other charismatic groups falling for heretical WOF teachings.
I do think there is a connection there.
And some of the very heretical groups don't allow for women to even speak during the services, you can find heretics on every side of the fence.
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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 10/1/2008 10:59:39 AM
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DaveW
Posts: 4073
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Marksmanquote:
Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is when TRAINED religious leaders through schemes and planning try to take away the attention from Jesus Christ and put it on themselves by saying the works of the Holy Spirit are done out of satanic authority. There were no trained religious leaders in the NT church. Their appointment was on the basis of quality of life, so the contentioon is without foundation. It was not "church leaders" that Jesus warned of this sin - it was Pharasees who had training more extensive than any seminary graduate today - beyond post-doctorate.
Besides, why would NT church leaders be trying to dissuade people from following Jesus by calling His miracles satanic in origin?
_____________________________
Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 10/1/2008 6:20:58 PM
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Godhead
Posts: 327
Joined: 1/28/2006
Status: offline
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Being a Christian is not about doing great things for God, but simply doing what God wants of us in our everyday lives. Some people want a great ministry or something. No, what you need to do is be a good husband, a good wife, a good mother, a good father, obedient children who respect their parents. If you are single then be chaste and so be an example to the world. This will do more to glorify God then a thousand ministries. And above all else, get to know the Son of God. He always did that which pleased God. A woman would do more for God, by obeying His word, rather then preaching a thousand sermons or having a successful teaching ministry. By obeying the word of God, we show honor towards God. I wouldn't want a woman to be teaching in the church, unless she loved God and had a good knowledge of His will. The very fact that she is teaching, shows that she has not got a good knowledge or respect for God's will. A woman who wants to have a leadership role in the church is not doing so to glorify God. But she is doing it to spite Him. She is doing it to serve the world and bring it's teaching into the church. A woman who obeys the word of God, she is that one who is glorifying God. Not one who wants to break the boundaries that have been set in place. You glorify God by obeying Him, not by doing great things for God. Satisfying your ego is not glorifying God. Going against God's word is not glorifying God. The feminist movement is not a Christian movement or one that seeks to glorifying God. It has no business being in the church.
quote:
ORIGINAL: PopsiLufsJesus
And so we take these few scriptures on the "well-accepted" women's roles, but we ignore all other ways women were used in the Bible...
Typical.
Yes God did use some women in the Old Testament, but the New Testament makes it clear what God wants of us all. Those women in the old testament obeyed God. Nothing in the Old Testament is to be considered the norm. Look at Samson. Does God need men to be so strong that they can defeat whole armies. God's dealing and purpose for Israel, is different to what He wants from the Church. Through Israel, the promised Savour would come and did come. The churches Job is to preach the good news about this Savour and all the rich blessings that we have in receiving Him. Its all about the Son of God now. Not about any individual and their need to succeed and achieved their personal goals in the church. All that matters is God's will, not our will. This is not about being male or female, but obeying God. That is what matters. I know that if a woman obeys God, she will do more fore His cause and for His Son then a million female clerics or deacons.
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But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. (Psalm 49:15)
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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 10/1/2008 6:34:28 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2911
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
Status: offline
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Benelchi-
I trust your opinion on this one - regarding Junia, what is your take on the meaning of the greek there for "among". One camp says he/she was known "to" the disciples, whereas the other regards "among" as being inclusive or "within the circle of". Seems to me there's logic on both sides, but from what I can tell the weight is toward the "among" with the inference of being within that group.
Thoughts?
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 10/1/2008 6:56:48 PM
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wintery
Posts: 1809
Joined: 2/1/2007
From: nw alabama
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Godhead
The very fact that she is teaching, shows that she has not got a good knowledge or respect for God's will. A woman who wants to have a leadership role in the church is not doing so to glorify God. But she is doing it to spite Him. She is doing it to serve the world and bring it's teaching into the church. A woman who obeys the word of God, she is that one who is glorifying God.
....
This is not about being male or female, but obeying God. That is what matters. I know that if a woman obeys God, she will do more fore His cause and for His Son then a million female clerics or deacons.
You may think this sounds reasonable, but in the context of following your previous post, I don't hear it that way. Telling a godly woman she has no role to play in the church is no better than telling a godly man he has no role there.
A godly woman doesn't become ungodly by speaking about her faith in front of a man. People hung up on church roles tend to have an "us four, no more" attitude anyway. Preacher, song leader, bean counter, secretary...what a wonderful body life.
"not about being male or female"--okay then, here's what it is:
So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
(Romans 12:5)
For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.
(1Corinthians 10:17)
But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
(Ephesians 4:7)
There's no "men only" sign on those gifts.
That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another. And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.
(1Corinthians 12:25-26)
But by an equality, that now at this time your abundance may be a supply for their want, that their abundance also may be a supply for your want: that there may be equality:
(2Corinthians 8:14)
I do not believe it wise to relegate my Christian sisters into a silent obscurity when they are living godly lives, growing in Christ and sharing their lives as a testimony which gives glory to God and encouragement to others.
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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 10/1/2008 8:16:23 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 2829
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GroupW
Benelchi-
I trust your opinion on this one - regarding Junia, what is your take on the meaning of the greek there for "among". One camp says he/she was known "to" the disciples, whereas the other regards "among" as being inclusive or "within the circle of". Seems to me there's logic on both sides, but from what I can tell the weight is toward the "among" with the inference of being within that group.
Thoughts?
The grammar key in this case is that 'tois apostolois' (the apostles) is in the dative case, and the preposition 'en' in the dative case means in or among. Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon says that 'en' means among "especially with the dative plural of persons", and this is exactly the case we have in Ro. 16.
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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 10/2/2008 1:51:19 AM
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Marksman
Posts: 271
Joined: 6/7/2007
From: Drouin, Victoria, Australia
Status: offline
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quote:
I and others have posted these verses for you before, remember you have been making these claims for a long time now.
It won't be difficult to post them again especially as there are probably none or one only.
_____________________________
God Bless America
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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 10/2/2008 1:57:57 AM
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Marksman
Posts: 271
Joined: 6/7/2007
From: Drouin, Victoria, Australia
Status: offline
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quote:
So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another. (Romans 12:5)
This has nothing to do with leadership of the local congregation
quote:
For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread. (1Corinthians 10:17)
This has nothing to do with the leadership of the local congregation
quote:
But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. (Ephesians 4:7)
This has nothing to do with the leadership fo the local congregation
quote:
That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another. And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.
(1Corinthians 12:25-26)
This has nothing to do with the leadership of the local congregation
quote:
But by an equality, that now at this time your abundance may be a supply for their want, that their abundance also may be a supply for your want: that there may be equality: (2Corinthians 8:14)
This has nothing to do with the leadership of the local congregation
quote:
I do not believe it wise to relegate my Christian sisters into a silent obscurity when they are living godly lives
I am not aware that anyone is suggesting that this is what should happen. No one, male or female can function effectively unless they are doing so in accordance with scripture. If they don't they produce a dysfunctional church and we have plenty of examples of churches like that if you care to read what the NT says about the NT church.
< Message edited by Marksman -- 10/2/2008 2:06:09 AM >
_____________________________
God Bless America
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