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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 10/2/2008 2:39:29 AM
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benelchi
Posts: 2829
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: online
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quote:
women were in leadership of the local congregation, I think that there would be a bit more evidence than one disputed verse.
It is, just from the one passage in Ro. 16 you have a number of women mentioned. And Romans is not the only book in which Paul mentions the ministries of women.
Oh, and by the way. Do you know that none of the early church writers disputed the idea that Junia was a man? And last I checked most versions of the bible DON'T indicate that Junia was a man.
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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 10/2/2008 3:00:27 AM
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wintery
Posts: 1809
Joined: 2/1/2007
From: nw alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Marksman
quote:
So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another. (Romans 12:5)
This has nothing to do with leadership of the local congregation
quote:
For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread. (1Corinthians 10:17)
This has nothing to do with the leadership of the local congregation
quote:
But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. (Ephesians 4:7)
This has nothing to do with the leadership fo the local congregation
quote:
That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another. And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.
(1Corinthians 12:25-26)
This has nothing to do with the leadership of the local congregation
quote:
But by an equality, that now at this time your abundance may be a supply for their want, that their abundance also may be a supply for your want: that there may be equality: (2Corinthians 8:14)
This has nothing to do with the leadership of the local congregation
quote:
I do not believe it wise to relegate my Christian sisters into a silent obscurity when they are living godly lives
I am not aware that anyone is suggesting that this is what should happen. No one, male or female can function effectively unless they are doing so in accordance with scripture. If they don't they produce a dysfunctional church and we have plenty of examples of churches like that if you care to read what the NT says about the NT church.
If you "are not aware", then you are not reading the posts I am responding to.
Furthermore, those verses certainly do address the nature "of the local congregation" which cannot function without its members fulfilling their roles.
"...if you care to read what the NT says about the NT church."--other than the verses which imply that women can be Christians too?
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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 10/2/2008 8:39:34 AM
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Bro_Shane
Posts: 986
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This will be th elast post I make in this thread because, frankly, it is a huge waste of time.
The main problem in this debate is that each side brings certain preconceptions to the table and, for the most part, refuses to try to move past them. Those of us who believe the Bible excludes women from holding office in the church are seen as knuckle-dragging he-man-woman-haters who feel as if women should be barefoot, pregnant, and quiet. Those who belive women can hold office are seen as godless libertines bent on the destruction of the church and the faith. Too many times the search is made for scripture and refernces to bolster the perception of the other side and not come to a real understanding of scripture and the will of God on the issue.
I have said from the beginning that there are good, decent people on both sides of the debate that honestly seek nothing more than the truth so as to obey God in every aspect of their life. I have also said the issue is not salvaic; that God often works in spite of us so that the seeming success of any ministry, whether headed by a man or woman, can not be "proof" for either side as no one can stop the will of God on any issue.
This issue, without being able to sit down face to face, has too much opportunity for misunderstanding and reading to much into the typed words of others. I know there have been times I have gotten into heated discussions with people in this thread only to find out that I had misunderstood the point because I just missed it or the person did not type out what they really meant.
I, like most people, have strong feelings about the issue. After much prayer about it I just feel, for me at least, this is not the place to hold a conversation. I wish everyone here well, and I thank God for all my Christian brothers and sisters - even when we do not agree on certain issues.
Peace be with you all.
_____________________________
Prayer is not where we change God's mind, it is where He changes ours.
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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 10/2/2008 8:56:23 AM
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Restored_Heart
Posts: 901
Joined: 7/23/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bro_Shane
This will be th elast post I make in this thread because, frankly, it is a huge waste of time.
The main problem in this debate is that each side brings certain preconceptions to the table and, for the most part, refuses to try to move past them. Those of us who believe the Bible excludes women from holding office in the church are seen as knuckle-dragging he-man-woman-haters who feel as if women should be barefoot, pregnant, and quiet. Those who belive women can hold office are seen as godless libertines bent on the destruction of the church and the faith. Too many times the search is made for scripture and refernces to bolster the perception of the other side and not come to a real understanding of scripture and the will of God on the issue.
I have said from the beginning that there are good, decent people on both sides of the debate that honestly seek nothing more than the truth so as to obey God in every aspect of their life. I have also said the issue is not salvaic; that God often works in spite of us so that the seeming success of any ministry, whether headed by a man or woman, can not be "proof" for either side as no one can stop the will of God on any issue.
This issue, without being able to sit down face to face, has too much opportunity for misunderstanding and reading to much into the typed words of others. I know there have been times I have gotten into heated discussions with people in this thread only to find out that I had misunderstood the point because I just missed it or the person did not type out what they really meant.
I, like most people, have strong feelings about the issue. After much prayer about it I just feel, for me at least, this is not the place to hold a conversation. I wish everyone here well, and I thank God for all my Christian brothers and sisters - even when we do not agree on certain issues.
Peace be with you all.
True... Bro_Shane... and I think also we have differing definitions of "church leadership positions".... I know that when I talked with you, there was quite a contrast between what you believed and what notmycity believed even though you were both - kinda- on the same side...
If I remember correctly, you limited it to pastor/elder/deacon exclusion and notmycity demonstrated the complete silence and submission belief.
Take care Bro_Shane.... 
ETA - BTW - I don't consider you a knuckle-dragging neanderthal at all... 
_____________________________
"Ya mom, I got to see "Some Italian guy" in concert..."
Some Italian guy? (Carman) :p
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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 10/2/2008 3:56:49 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2911
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
ORIGINAL: GroupW
Benelchi-
I trust your opinion on this one - regarding Junia, what is your take on the meaning of the greek there for "among". One camp says he/she was known "to" the disciples, whereas the other regards "among" as being inclusive or "within the circle of". Seems to me there's logic on both sides, but from what I can tell the weight is toward the "among" with the inference of being within that group.
Thoughts?
The grammar key in this case is that 'tois apostolois' (the apostles) is in the dative case, and the preposition 'en' in the dative case means in or among. Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon says that 'en' means among "especially with the dative plural of persons", and this is exactly the case we have in Ro. 16.
That's been my take and seems to be the majority opinion. Good to know I'm not smoking stuff. Not that I know of, anyway.
BT
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 10/2/2008 7:47:46 PM
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Godhead
Posts: 327
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Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel; But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price. For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands: Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.
(1Pe 3:3-6)
This is not about a battle of the sexes, or mans need to dominate women. That is using worldly arguments and concerns. The church and our lives are not regulated by worldly arguments or concerns. It is not men that women seek to be free of in the church, but God himself. Gods will for them. That is not the Holy Spirit but the spirit of the world.
But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD... Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.
(Gen 6:8-9)
Its better to be the most righteous person on the earth then the most richest.
Now the man Moses was very meek, above all the men which were upon the face of the earth.
(Num 12:3)
Its better to be the most humblest person on the earth then the most powerful.
There is one who was the most righteous, and the most humblest. The Son of God. He is the perfect example for us all, who's sandals we are not worthy to unlatch. Who's feet we are not even worthy to look upon. And there also is an angel, who became the most proud and rebellious. The whole world is under his influence. Do we have the spirit of Christ, or the spirit of the world? Are we to become like the one who was made a little lower then the angels, yet always pleased God. Or are we to follow the angel who rebelled against God's authority. God has given us that choice.
_____________________________
But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. (Psalm 49:15)
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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 10/2/2008 8:18:38 PM
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wintery
Posts: 1809
Joined: 2/1/2007
From: nw alabama
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Godhead
This is not about a battle of the sexes, or mans need to dominate women.
Some people's views don't inconvenience men who need to dominate women. It greatly satisfies them. It occurred to me that an abusive fellowship begins with telling who to submit to whom.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Godhead
That is using worldly arguments and concerns. The church and our lives are not regulated by worldly arguments or concerns. It is not men that women seek to be free of in the church, but God himself. Gods will for them. That is not the Holy Spirit but the spirit of the world.
Worldly arguments and concerns? From Scriptures?
The person writing the question can write his own answer, yet what does that do toward having a healthy and vibrant body life? And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.
(1Corinthians 12:21)
Every member of the body is needed. It is shortsighted at best to think that a woman has nothing to offer in the way of ministry. "...the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee".
Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.
(Galatians 3:23-29)(ESV)
I am not the least bit threatened by a woman sharing her faith in Christ. I have been blessed by it and rightly so, to God be the glory.
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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 10/2/2008 8:46:47 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1635
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
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quote:
t is shortsighted at best to think that a woman has nothing to offer in the way of ministry.
Who has said this?
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 10/2/2008 9:10:51 PM
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Stephanos
Posts: 1115
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in KC MO
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: wintery
quote:
ORIGINAL: Godhead
This is not about a battle of the sexes, or mans need to dominate women.
Some people's views don't inconvenience men who need to dominate women. It greatly satisfies them. It occurred to me that an abusive fellowship begins with telling who to submit to whom.
Dont you DARE try to connect my beliefs with ungodly men who beat their wives. I dont think you like it when I say that the belief in women pastors DIRECTLY leads towards the support of homosexual pastors and other amoral perversions of "equality". Please show me where true complementarian beliefs lead towards men beating their wives. Show me, before you make these stupid accusations.
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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 10/2/2008 9:24:40 PM
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wintery
Posts: 1809
Joined: 2/1/2007
From: nw alabama
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Stephanos
quote:
ORIGINAL: wintery
quote:
ORIGINAL: Godhead
This is not about a battle of the sexes, or mans need to dominate women.
Some people's views don't inconvenience men who need to dominate women. It greatly satisfies them. It occurred to me that an abusive fellowship begins with telling who to submit to whom.
Dont you DARE try to connect my beliefs with ungodly men who beat their wives. I dont think you like it when I say that the belief in women pastors DIRECTLY leads towards the support of homosexual pastors and other amoral perversions of "equality". Please show me where true complementarian beliefs lead towards men beating their wives. Show me, before you make these stupid accusations.
You may stop attempting to put words in my mouth anytime, Stephanos.
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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 10/2/2008 9:27:35 PM
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wintery
Posts: 1809
Joined: 2/1/2007
From: nw alabama
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
quote:
t is shortsighted at best to think that a woman has nothing to offer in the way of ministry.
Who has said this?
quote:
ORIGINAL: Godhead
A woman would do more for God, by obeying His word, rather then preaching a thousand sermons or having a successful teaching ministry. By obeying the word of God, we show honor towards God. I wouldn't want a woman to be teaching in the church, unless she loved God and had a good knowledge of His will. The very fact that she is teaching, shows that she has not got a good knowledge or respect for God's will. A woman who wants to have a leadership role in the church is not doing so to glorify God. But she is doing it to spite Him. She is doing it to serve the world and bring it's teaching into the church. A woman who obeys the word of God, she is that one who is glorifying God. Not one who wants to break the boundaries that have been set in place. You glorify God by obeying Him, not by doing great things for God. Satisfying your ego is not glorifying God. Going against God's word is not glorifying God. The feminist movement is not a Christian movement or one that seeks to glorifying God. It has no business being in the church.
Heard enough?
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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 10/2/2008 9:55:39 PM
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Stephanos
Posts: 1115
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in KC MO
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quote:
Some people's views don't inconvenience men who need to dominate women. It greatly satisfies them. It occurred to me that an abusive fellowship begins with telling who to submit to whom.
No need to put words into your mouth with remarks like this. I guess Paul was causing abusive relationships when he CLEARLY speaks of submission in Eph 5:22. You clearly dont know what true submission is according to the bible, if you are going to suggest that "abusive fellowships" begin with the biblical teaching of the submission of wives in the home.
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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 10/2/2008 10:01:15 PM
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Restored_Heart
Posts: 901
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Stephanos...
He did use the word, "Some"
I did not take that to include you....
_____________________________
"Ya mom, I got to see "Some Italian guy" in concert..."
Some Italian guy? (Carman) :p
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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 10/2/2008 10:28:00 PM
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Stephanos
Posts: 1115
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in KC MO
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Restored_Heart
Stephanos...
He did use the word, "Some"
I did not take that to include you....
I take issue with what I bolded. The biblical belief in Submission, is NOT what leads men to beat their wives. There is NO connection to the two. What ungodly men believe allows them the beat their wives is no more in line with true submission, then people like wintery connecting the two and thinking the teaching of Biblical submission, leads ANYONE to beat their wives.
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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 10/2/2008 10:29:22 PM
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wintery
Posts: 1809
Joined: 2/1/2007
From: nw alabama
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Stephanos
quote:
Some people's views don't inconvenience men who need to dominate women. It greatly satisfies them. It occurred to me that an abusive fellowship begins with telling who to submit to whom.
No need to put words into your mouth with remarks like this. I guess Paul was causing abusive relationships when he CLEARLY speaks of submission in Eph 5:22. You clearly dont know what true submission is according to the bible, if you are going to suggest that "abusive fellowships" begin with the biblical teaching of the submission of wives in the home.
You do realize that if I wanted to say what you are saying that I am completely willing to say it. I haven't said what you think I said, and so you are putting words in my mouth. I will just consider it a misunderstanding.
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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 10/2/2008 10:30:13 PM
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Restored_Heart
Posts: 901
Joined: 7/23/2005
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I did not see it as meaning leads.... but more is as "is used as justification for, or sees it as giving permissions to"
But I still did not equate that with what you believe....
_____________________________
"Ya mom, I got to see "Some Italian guy" in concert..."
Some Italian guy? (Carman) :p
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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 10/3/2008 2:09:52 AM
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Godhead
Posts: 327
Joined: 1/28/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: wintery
quote:
ORIGINAL: Godhead
This is not about a battle of the sexes, or mans need to dominate women.
It occurred to me that an abusive fellowship begins with telling who to submit to whom.
It is Paul that said that...
Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the Saviour of the body.
(Eph 5:22-23)
Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord.
(Col 3:18)
And Peter as well...
Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives; While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear.
(1Pe 3:1-2)
Lets not forget that. You are not doing any woman a favor by encouraging them to disobey God. I think that you rather seek the approval of the other sex then God's approval. Is that the case? It is if you encourage them to be rebellious.
quote:
ORIGINAL: wintery
I am not the least bit threatened by a woman sharing her faith in Christ. I have been blessed by it and rightly so, to God be the glory.
I am all for woman sharing the gospel message. They can do it at home, at work and even give their testimony at church. They just cannot have any position of authority.
Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.
(1Pe 3:6)
I've been giving this a lot of thought, and I like the idea of a woman calling me Lord. I'm sold on the whole thing. I'm glade that I haven't found a wife yet. For now I know how to test a prospective wife, to see if she is the right one. Will she refer to me as her lord? 
_____________________________
But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. (Psalm 49:15)
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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 10/3/2008 6:39:14 AM
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Marksman
Posts: 271
Joined: 6/7/2007
From: Drouin, Victoria, Australia
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quote:
It is, just from the one passage in Ro. 16 you have a number of women mentioned. And Romans is not the only book in which Paul mentions the ministries of women.
You really do treat the word of God with contempt. Taking your interpretation literally I can introduce my wife to someone and the person assumes that she is an elder in the church, which is what you are telling us Romans 16 says.
What I and others are asking for is the evidence from scripture that says the women mentioned were spoken of as ELDERS in the church.
quote:
And last I checked most versions of the bible DON'T indicate that Junia was a man.
And all ten versions of the bible on my computer says he was a man.
quote:
Furthermore, those verses certainly do address the nature "of the local congregation" which cannot function without its members fulfilling their roles.
But none of them address the leadership of the local congregation.
quote:
Every member of the body is needed. It is shortsighted at best to think that a woman has nothing to offer in the way of ministry. "...the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee".
I have seen statements like this all over the place and then they go on to say that women can be elders and leaders of the local congregation as a result. In most cases those saying that the scripture does not support female elders do not say they have no ministry. Usually this is distorted misrepresentation by those who say the scriptures support female elders.
Everyone in the body is needed to fulfil their ministry given by God. He doesn't give ministries contrary to his word. Women and men who function in ministries not given to them by God are usually in it for what they can get out of it, not what they can contribute to the body of christ.
Any church that has people who are ministering contrary to God's word, whether they be male or female, will prevent God's blessing on that church. Only 1% of churches in the USA are growing. That suggests to me that there are a heck of a lot of churches doing things contrary to God's word.
_____________________________
God Bless America
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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 10/3/2008 8:01:04 AM
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wintery
Posts: 1809
Joined: 2/1/2007
From: nw alabama
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Godhead
quote:
ORIGINAL: wintery
quote:
ORIGINAL: Godhead
This is not about a battle of the sexes, or mans need to dominate women.
It occurred to me that an abusive fellowship begins with telling who to submit to whom.
It is Paul that said that...
Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the Saviour of the body.
(Eph 5:22-23)
Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord.
(Col 3:18)
And Peter as well...
Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives; While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear.
(1Pe 3:1-2)
Lets not forget that. You are not doing any woman a favor by encouraging them to disobey God. I think that you rather seek the approval of the other sex then God's approval. Is that the case? It is if you encourage them to be rebellious.
If you had read my posts you'd know I do very little approval-seeking of anyone. You left out:
Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.
(1Peter 5:5)
How one defines the term "submit" says a lot.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Godhead
quote:
ORIGINAL: wintery
I am not the least bit threatened by a woman sharing her faith in Christ. I have been blessed by it and rightly so, to God be the glory.
I am all for woman sharing the gospel message. They can do it at home, at work and even give their testimony at church. They just cannot have any position of authority.
Amazing. I wouldn't have thought it from what I read earlier.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Godhead
Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.
(1Pe 3:6)
I've been giving this a lot of thought, and I like the idea of a woman calling me Lord. I'm sold on the whole thing. I'm glade that I haven't found a wife yet. For now I know how to test a prospective wife, to see if she is the right one. Will she refer to me as her lord?
I hope you're joking. Treating one another with respect doesn't involve groveling.
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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 10/3/2008 10:31:45 AM
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benelchi
Posts: 2829
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: online
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quote:
quote:
And last I checked most versions of the bible DON'T indicate that Junia was a man.
And all ten versions of the bible on my computer says he was a man.
If that is true, that is scary because it means that your computer excludes many of the prominent versions of the bible like the NRSV, NIV, NLT, etc... Many versions of the bible use gender inclusive terms in this verse to avoid any misinterpretation.
Such a statement also demonstrates a complete lack of hermetical skills because most languages (including English) use a gender inclusive masculine in the plural. In the biblical languages this even stronger, and in Hebrew there is never an option to do otherwise because there is no neuter form in Hebrew. Some examples, every instance of "children" in the OT (including the KJV) is a translation of the word "sons" (banim), when we say "mankind" in English, it always refers to men and women; in this verse "countrymen" as used by the NKJV, or "kinsmen" as used by the KJV, NASB, NEB would always be considered a gender inclusive term. The misinterpretation you put forth is why there is such a debate about gender inclusive versions of the bible like the TNIV; the argument has been that if you don't translate these terms in complete gender inclusive langauge modern English speaking people will misunderstand the passage because the misunderstand the inclusive nature of the masculine plural in English. Although, I have always thought the inclusive langauge translations were an overreaction, you may have just proved me wrong!
Note to Stephanos and others that may read more into what I said above than I ever intended.
1) I do note see the use of inclusive langauge (or the inclusive masculine plural) as in anyway adding support to the idea that Junia was a woman. The grammar of this passage in no way requires that Junia be a woman (other than maybe the likelihood that the name itself is feminine), but by the same token, the Greek grammar (and English grammar of the translations) in no way exclude this possibility. To imply that the grammar of this verse required that Junia was a woman would equally as invalid as the claim made by Marksman that the grammar excludes such a posibility.
2) I have been opposed to "inclusive language" translations (like the TNIV for example) for two reasons; one I believe that sometimes they have made some questionable decisions about when and where to use inclusive langauge. Although I have never seen even these versions make blatant mistakes (as claimed by some), I have been uncomfortable with some of the translation choices. Two, I have long felt that the cultural change that instigated the change in how we use the inclusive masculine in English today had its roots in an ungodly ideology i.e. radical militant feminism, and I have found myself wanting to dig my heals in and stand my ground rather than give in to their pressure to change the English language based on an ideology to which I am completely opposed. I have also felt the battle for how English is understood was still raging, but Marksman's claims about this verse could be a strong indication that battle for the inclusive masculine in English has already been lost. The advocates for inclusive versions of the bible have long argued that if inclusive language is not used then modern English speakers will misinterpret the inclusive masculine to be solely masculine, and Marksman interpretation seems to add weight to their argument.
3) For the record, not even I am convinced that Junia was a woman Apostle. I have brought up the issue solely because verses like this should be given consideration. It is far from an open and shut case. Personally, I am convinced that women should not be elders, I am unconvinced that women should not be pastors (unless the position also equates to that of an elder), I strongly believe that their is a clear distinction in the biblical roles for women in marriage. And while I do believe that some biblical Egalitarians have strong, well thought, and scriptural arguments for their position, I personally believe that the evidence gets pushed beyond anything justifiable from scripture; however, that being said, I still do understand and respect their position.
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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 10/3/2008 10:48:05 AM
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GroupW
Posts: 2911
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
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Nicely and fairly stated. This is how debate is supposed to work.
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“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 10/3/2008 6:02:25 PM
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Godhead
Posts: 327
Joined: 1/28/2006
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Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honor unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.
(1Pe 3:7)
There is absolutely no excuse for a Christian man to abuse, belittle or hurt his wife in anyway. A man should love and cherish his wife. I have no respect for a man who does not love his wife, or who takes her for granted. If I had a wife I would do exactly what the Bible tells me to do. Love them and not be bitter against them. (Col 3:19) We are all airs of eternal life in Christ Jesus. We both share the same salvation and rewards in Heaven. If you abuse your wife and she is a child of the most high God, you will be held accountable, as one who abused the Lord Himself.
Marriage is something that should not be rushed into. You should really get to know somebody first before even considering marrying them. My chief joy, chief strength and chief desire is to serve the Lord. I know God has a purpose for me just as He did for Paul and other men in times past. I wouldn't even consider getting married until God has brought to pass, whatever it is He has prepared for me to do. Then if I have room for a wife, so be it. Until then, God's plan for me might not have room for a wife. But if I ever do get married, I would certainly endeavor to be a good husband as the Bible commands. There is no excuse not to be a good husband. Even so, whether a man or woman, you are much better off being single. But if you get married then you have to accept that responsibility and all the trouble that can go with it. If you are with a horrible man, remember that you married him. If you cannot survive without sex, then you have to suffer all the baggage and responsibilities that goes with it. So you have to suffer the person that you are having sex with. Still there is no excuse and no room for any kind of abuse or mistreatment of a wife in a Christian marriage. And the church should not stand for it. If a man abuses or mistreats his wife, then he is not a Christian.
If you are a woman, don't marry a man unless he fears the Lord. Don't get swept away by good looks, but get swept away by a good heart.
The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things; That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.
(Tit 2:3-5)
Godly woman can teach other woman on how to be godly and how better to serve God. There is no greater blessing to a man then having a good wife and the church needs to be filled with good women.
Who can find a virtuous woman? for her price is far above rubies. The heart of her husband doth safely trust in her, so that he shall have no need of spoil. She will do him good and not evil all the days of her life.
(Pro 31:10-12)
A good wife is from the Lord (Prov 19:14) and so we must ask Him for the right one at the right time. But ladies, it is a mans Job to take care of Church business not a yours. A woman is not a man, and so cannot take on a mans role, as if she was a man.
Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.
(1Ti 3:12)
So let us men do the Job appointed us, and be our helpers not hinderers. Be a blessing and not a curse. Men, be good husbands or you disgrace yourselves in the eyes of all.
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But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. (Psalm 49:15)
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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 10/3/2008 6:11:28 PM
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Godhead
Posts: 327
Joined: 1/28/2006
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Lastly I will add, all that matters is God's will not ours. The church will only function as a true church when it is in obedience to God and His word. The world on the other hand will only accept us when we accept its views. My job is to please God, not the world. I seek his favor not mans. I hope that this is alway prevalent in my posts.
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But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. (Psalm 49:15)
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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 10/4/2008 2:33:07 PM
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