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RE: Naochide Laws - 9/23/2008 6:04:32 PM
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drmark
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As Abiyah has also pointed out the relationship of these "laws" to Noach is questionable. Okay, now I get it. Rabbibinc tradition with questionable Scriptural support at least from Genesis 9.
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That said, some have taken this concept and have applied it to Acts 15 to explain the appearant differences between it and Ha Torah. And just when I thought I was getting it! Are not all four rules of the Jerusalem Council found in Levitical Law somewhere. I realize "sexual immorality" is described much more graphically and specifically in the OT but I see no "apparent differences" with anything listed in Acts 15 and the Pentateuch.
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I don't believe Paul is proposing a "don't ask and don't tell policy", Umm, 1 Cor 10:27-29 reads very plainly to me - don't ask if you're the guest and don't tell if you're the host! How do you interpret this passage, Bt? Gentiles knew nothing about "clean and unclean" so your explanation makes little sense to me.
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This is what I was talking about when I said the simple literal approach to interpreting the Scriptures can lead us astray. Whoa, Bt, time out! Luke is considered one of, if not the very, best NT historians. If we cannot correctly read his historical account of the Jerusalem Council as literally factual events without going astray, then we have serious problems with the rest of NT history!
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The context and the fact that they sent Paul and others leads me to believe that what Paul says in the later epistles are clarifications rather than contradictions of these the councils decision. It seems a little more than clarification when Paul states we can eat whatever we want in ignorance and the Council states to abstain from certain food, no restrictions noted.
Look, don't get me wrong, I have no desire to be interviewing my butcher every time I want to buy some meat. But then I'm gentile.  How well do you others know your butcher?
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RE: Naochide Laws - 9/23/2008 7:00:16 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
Would any other "expert" be able to explain the Biblical relationship between Noachide Laws, Acts 15, and Genesis 9:4?
I am not really an expert on the "Noachide Laws" and I hope Abiyah doesn't mind me jumping in here to clear a few things up. . . .
THANK YOU, Blue!
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ORIGINAL: drmark
So "believing synagogues" were not considered "church" back then? Abiyah, I'm not tying to twist your words but this sure sounds like "church" to me! A local group of Christians worshipping and fellowshipping together under the distant authority of duly-appointed leaders who could establish recommended policies for the benefit of all. I see this church structure working well today in many denominations.
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ORIGINAL: Blue
Abiyah can correct me if this is not her meaning, but, I think the point is that the term "church" carries many connotations in addition the charaacteristics you point out. It is these connotations that can lead to a misunderstanding of the gatherings of believers in Paul's time.
THANK YOU! Yes!
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"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: Naochide Laws - 9/23/2008 7:20:03 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga
I was writing about the Noachide Laws, Mark. The reason false doctrine works is because it always carries with it a little truth, and this is what can confuse the reader/hearer. I was not writing about Acts 15. You changed the subject to Acts 15.
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ORIGINAL: drmark
Now I am completely confused, Abiyah! The title of the OP is "Acts 15 Noachide Laws". How can I possibly change the subject when this is the title of the thread?
Again, I specifically wrote, "Noachide Laws," and while I wrote that I did not see what the Noachide Laws had to do with "Acts," I did not write "Acts 15" in the post I wrote that you questioned -- post 6. Neither had you mentioned Acts 15, so none of the correspondence between us up to that time mentioned Acts 15.
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ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga
I, personally, have never looked into the Noachide Laws, because I find them to be irrelevant.
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ORIGINAL: drmark
Why is that, Abiyah?
No mention of Acts 15 here either. You were the first to bring that Scripture up right after this. Wow, I am starting to feel like a lawyer having to defend myself in a court of law!
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ORIGINALLY Covaan_Meshuga
Once again, Mark, I repeat that they were to stay away from meats that were strangled, because strangulation left a lot of blood in the meat. I don't know how many way to say that so that it is understood.
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ORIGINALLY drmark
But how does anyone know if meat is strangled unless they specifically ask? That's all I'm pointing out. This rule appears to me to be mostly unenforceable.
Mark, it is not unenforceable. When meat is properly bled, it is fairly obvious; when it is not, that is also fairly obvious. Furthermore, who is the enforcer? G-d Himself. It is just like anything else we do just because it is right, not because someone is going to "tell." Just as now, our L-rd knows our intentions, our motives, our acts.
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ORIGINALLY Covaan_Meshuga
(1) There was no such thing as "church" then. Church is a later invention. Acts 15 is a ruling by leaders of believing synagogues for those Jews and Gentiles who attended in them.
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ORIGINALLY drmark
So "believing synagogues" were not considered "church" back then? Abiyah, I'm not tying to twist your words but this sure sounds like "church" to me! A local group of Christians worshipping and fellowshipping together under the distant authority of duly-appointed leaders who could establish recommended policies for the benefit of all. I see this church structure working well today in many denominations!
Bluethread answered this very well. "Church" means something different and had not yet been invented. The congregations were still synagogues at that time. They were part of another of the many Judaisms that existed at that time.
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ORIGINALLY Covaan_Meshuga
(3) What one eats as a follower of the Bible, when it pertains to what the Bible says about eating, is not a social or cultural decision.
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ORIGINALLY drmark
Yet the Jerusalem Council stated that eating strangled meat must be avoided. Since Acts 15 is now canonized in Scripture, does this pertain to what the Bible says about eating? Or do we apply social or cultural qualifiers as Paul did in 1 Cor 8 and 10 when he laid out the "don't ask and don't tell policy"?
I don't merely consider the "new testament" to be Scripture, so to me, it is the whole of Scripture that tells me what to do, how to be, who I am.
As far as cultural qualifiers, they are clear: there was a huge influx of Gentiles into the kingdom, and they came in ignorant of the Bible, ignorant of Torah, and full of pagan teaching. Of course, they could not learn it all at once, so it was ridiculous to try to hold them to all of Torah until it was learned. It was also ridiculous to try to hold them to oral torah, which Messiah had already demonstrated was not completely biblical. That is why Acts clearly states that they would be attending synagogue on Sabbaths, so let them learn at the pace of the synagogues and stop being so pushing and self-righteous, imposing so much on them (my rendition of Scripture).
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Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: Naochide Laws - 9/23/2008 7:35:33 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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Why, Popsi? I am not sure what you intend, but don't let it get to you.
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Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: Naochide Laws - 9/23/2008 7:40:19 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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Oh, believe me, it may appear to be a big deal, but it isn't. We have just been in different circles from yours. And remember that some of us are old enough to be your parent, and some of us are old enough to be your grandparent.
The main question in all of this is really this -- the bottom line: Are you born again? You and I know the answer. And the answer is everything.
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: Naochide Laws - 9/23/2008 7:54:06 PM
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LBolt
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Popsi, I felt the same way when I started learning Torah...There are passages that you swore up and down you knew only to be blown away when factoring the Hebraic aspect involved! LOL!
Salvation is the key and then it about learning and observing His teachings and instructions! You have to sit under those who are teaching Torah and/or search on your own in order to get it.
We all feel unqualified but thanks be to God for His grace and mercy that has made us "accepted in the Beloved."
I've been saved for over 26 years...I'm 33 and I still am learning...that's why I love this journey...just when you think you got something---bam!---something else is brought to light.
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Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
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RE: Naochide Laws - 9/24/2008 4:17:52 AM
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Bluethread
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Careful LBolt, we are discussing Acts 15 here, how it applies and to whom. If one wishes to discuss how Ha Torah applies to ones life, is it not discussed in the synogogue, I mean the Law thread, every Sabbath, sorry, under the Doctrine forum.
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RE: Naochide Laws - 9/24/2008 7:48:34 AM
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DaveW
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quote:
Acts 15:29 "You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things." quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
I just had another curiosity question. Why did Paul use the specific example of food sacrificed to idols in his discussion of freedom from legalism in 1 Cor chapter 8? Did he write those instructions before the Jerusalem Council or was it a thinly disguised effort to undermine a policy he disagreed with? I would suggest that the translation of this verse is in error, not Paul's discussion of meat sacrificed to idols.
The NASB renders it this way:
20 but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols ...
29 that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols ....
Youngs Literal puts it this way:
20 but to write to them to abstain from the pollutions of the idols, ...
29 to abstain from things offered to idols....
There is no mention of "food" in connection with idols. It is things - i.e. the objects of idol worship, not the means of that worship. So the meat used in that system was ok as long as the person eating had no intent to be worshipping false deities.
The only food issue was to avoid strangled meat which is almost impossible to drain the blood from.
I have heard some say that these 4 commands are not actually connected to the Noachide laws because they are worded differently and only have 4 of the 7. It is possible that this was an early version of the list and it grew in the next century or 2 when the Noachide list was finally written down.
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RE: Naochide Laws - 9/24/2008 8:40:24 AM
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drmark
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quote:
I would suggest that the translation of this verse is in error, not Paul's discussion of meat sacrificed to idols. Thank you, Dave. Your opinion seems to support the comments of emerging on the previous page, although he has not answered my request for clarification. It still greatly surprises me that the Jerusalem Council would feel the need to confirm the First Commandment and Christ's Greatest Command to people who are presumed to be Christians as shown by God "giving them the Holy Spirit" and purifying their hearts by faith" (Acts 15:8-9). This whole chapter just isn't adding up in several ways. What about Acts 15:19? Does James' statement about not making it difficult for "the Gentiles who are turning to God" imply that these rules are also for the not yet saved, but still seeking?
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Naochide Laws - 9/24/2008 10:05:34 AM
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DaveW
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"Turning to God" or repentance is a process. I would submit that one is saved when they first start the process, but getting all the junk out of our lives from living in an unredeemed world can take years.
Please note verse 21: For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath. I take that to mean the gentile believers are to go to the regular synagoge and hear the Torah expounded every week. One cannot properly understand what the freedom of the New Covenant is all about without a proper understanding of the Mosaic and previous covenants.
I would suggest that by requiring those who were not raised with an understanding of God and His ways as listed in Torah to follow all that would discourage the new believers and cause many to just give up.
The New Covenant is profoundly different than the Mosaic; a point the Judiazers of verse 1 seem to have not understood. God's requirements are covered by Messiah's obedience and sacrifice. While we can and should grow into obedience ourselves, our salvation is not dependant on it.
< Message edited by DaveW -- 9/24/2008 10:15:35 AM >
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Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
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RE: Acts 15 Noachide Laws - 9/24/2008 11:18:39 AM
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eschatologist
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These rules were only meant as suggestions, not hard and fast rules. If a newly saved gentile christian eats something sacrificed to idols does he lose his salvation? Of course not! Therefore, they are not hard and fast rules that they were expected to keep in every situation.
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RE: Acts 15 Noachide Laws - 9/24/2008 11:24:12 AM
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drmark
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quote:
These rules were only meant as suggestions, not hard and fast rules. So abstaining from idol worship and sexual immorality are suggestions? Any other of the Ten Commandments that you consider "suggestions", escatologist?
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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