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RE: And that no man might buy or sell... - 10/6/2008 4:57:45 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6631
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
quote:
then they must be sheltered from other cultures and nations.
This is true in many issues that get debated.
True. There are millions of young Americans with no clue what it's like to really live in hard times, much less know what real hunger feels like. They might one day, but right now they have no clue. So they are ready to believe the silliest claims.
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RE: And that no man might buy or sell... - 10/6/2008 9:06:23 PM
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Godhead
Posts: 327
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Most People don't care until it effects them personally.
Incline my heart unto thy testimonies, and not to covetousness. Turn away mine eyes from beholding vanity; and quicken thou me in thy way.
(Psa 119:36-37)
Here is an interesting verse.
And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
(Rev 6:6)
Covetousness is idolatry. (Colossians 3:5)
Could this and the economy tie into worshiping the beast? Certainly, covetousness is what drives the consumer. Necessity as well.
Has not marketing corrupted the whole world in a way. It encourages us to covet and not be satisfied with what we have. it's existence depends on us being covetous. Advertisements are everywhere and is designed to entice us to buy the product. Money as well is probably what most people desire above all else. Jesus said that we cannot serve two masters.
Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light. But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness! No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon. Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment? Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they? Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature? And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin: And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which today is, and tomorrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith? Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed? (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things. But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.
(Mat 6:19-34)
I am not saying that we should live a Spartan life. I have my hobbies and things that I enjoy. But I live a content life.
Yet we should not be swept away with all this materialism and greed. None of these tings can redeem a mans soul or bring us true contentment.
And he said unto them, Take heed, and beware of covetousness: for a man's life consisteth not in the abundance of the things which he possesseth. And he spake a parable unto them, saying, The ground of a certain rich man brought forth plentifully: And he thought within himself, saying, What shall I do, because I have no room where to bestow my fruits? And he said, This will I do: I will pull down my barns, and build greater; and there will I bestow all my fruits and my goods. And I will say to my soul, Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, eat, drink, and be merry. But God said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee: then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided? So is he that layeth up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God. And he said unto his disciples, Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat; neither for the body, what ye shall put on. The life is more than meat, and the body is more than raiment. Consider the ravens: for they neither sow nor reap; which neither have storehouse nor barn; and God feedeth them: how much more are ye better than the fowls? And which of you with taking thought can add to his stature one cubit? If ye then be not able to do that thing which is least, why take ye thought for the rest? Consider the lilies how they grow: they toil not, they spin not; and yet I say unto you, that Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. If then God so clothe the grass, which is today in the field, and tomorrow is cast into the oven; how much more will he clothe you, O ye of little faith? And seek not ye what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink, neither be ye of doubtful mind. For all these things do the nations of the world seek after: and your Father knoweth that ye have need of these things. But rather seek ye the kingdom of God; and all these things shall be added unto you. Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom. Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth. For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
(Luk 12:15-34)
The wicked in his pride doth persecute the poor: let them be taken in the devices that they have imagined. For the wicked boasteth of his heart's desire, and blesseth the covetous, whom the LORD abhorreth. The wicked, through the pride of his countenance, will not seek after God: God is not in all his thoughts. His ways are always grievous; thy judgments are far above out of his sight: as for all his enemies, he puffeth at them. He hath said in his heart, I shall not be moved: for I shall never be in adversity. His mouth is full of cursing and deceit and fraud: under his tongue is mischief and vanity. He sitteth in the lurking places of the villages: in the secret places doth he murder the innocent: his eyes are privily set against the poor. He lieth in wait secretly as a lion in his den: he lieth in wait to catch the poor: he doth catch the poor, when he draweth him into his net. He croucheth, and humbleth himself, that the poor may fall by his strong ones. He hath said in his heart, God hath forgotten: he hideth his face; he will never see it.
(Psa 10:2-11)
The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.
(Psa 9:17)
Pray this prayer. "Our Father and most high God, who was before all things and by whom all things consist. Give me a heart that will value eternal things above temporal things and please give me the wisdom to handle both in manner that is acceptable in your sight. AMEN!"
He is well paid that is well satisfied. (The Merchant of Venice, Act 4, Sceen 1)
_____________________________
But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. (Psalm 49:15)
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RE: And that no man might buy or sell... - 10/7/2008 10:15:28 AM
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Sinner-Saint
Posts: 494
Joined: 10/5/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
my skin crawls around anyone that has a false premise and then works it into even worse eschatology. But I don't expect all that much from adolescents.
Nice insult: adolescent. I so do love posting on Christian message boards because of how respectfully we treat one another ~ (extreme sarcasm dripping from the keyboard...).
Well there Jimbo, the "false premise" as you call it is a chapter in Revelation which reveals the true nature of modern commerce. So to say the least, I don't accept your criticism as being constructive because it is at odds with the Word of God found in our Bible.
Now if you don't like it when the particular system of economics which makes you rich is criticized, it might be because you're not looking at it objectively. That happens when we grow up with certain assumptions, like America is good. We bristle when Arabs depict us as the great Satan. However, in God's eyes, they may be more right than wrong IF we are indeed going to be part of the fourth terrible beast as I think we will be.
It is not without accident too that Capitalism found its home in America or that we became so rich and powerful at the time of the end either. I think God unleashed a spirit which empowered men to incrementally build upon an idea until it snowballed. This change in economics was so important that historians gave it a name: the Industrial Revolution.
The Industrial Revolution made possible the rise of the city-state to the national fervor which led to a century of war. Out of the global conflict between two vastly different economic systems, ultimately Capitalism won out in the end without ever consummating that conflict in war or even firing a shot!
It is Capitalism which paved the way for Modernism and the technology boom which has led us to the present age of the computer and the Information Revolution. This is key for the Mark of the Beast to be implemented. Never before has it been possible to literally keep tabs on every transaction and person. Now as a part of the War against Terror (which is designed to give us "Peace and Safety!") we even have computer tracking programs which can monitor an entire city like New York.
So wake up Jimbo, and cast aside that man-made thing you hold so dear and look anew at our world. We're in part of the beast, and what it does to make money is not good in God's eyes because ultimately it trades in the souls of men.
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RE: And that no man might buy or sell... - 10/7/2008 12:04:30 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6631
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint
Well there Jimbo, the "false premise" as you call it is...
....Absurd because it flies in the face of the context. Hate capitalism all your little heart desires (though I've yet to see you offer a viable, biblical alternative), but don't insult my intelligence by twisting Revelation 18 into support for your premise. It ain't there. Never was.
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RE: And that no man might buy or sell... - 10/7/2008 1:30:35 PM
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tracydolls
Posts: 1839
Joined: 3/30/2008
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quote:
If anyone thinks the USA is the Great Babylon of Revelation 18, then they must be sheltered from other cultures and nations.
what other country has as much wealth as US.
military bases?
IS in the ancient city of Babylon?
What other country had their World Trade Center knocked down?
Capitalists by nature are greedy. The bottom line always is the driver for them.
Not the families that work there, etc.
Any one that thinks America is not in God's radar is ..........
So God is just not seeing the rich taking advantage of us.
The gay marriage. slaughter of the innocents.
WE get a free pass because of what? What have we done that gives us this free pass?
Our dipping in the business of Israel? Getting Hamas elected?
What?
America is Babylon, all day long!
_____________________________
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
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[Deleted] - 10/7/2008 2:03:10 PM
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Deleted User
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[Deleted by Admins]
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RE: And that no man might buy or sell... - 10/7/2008 2:13:55 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6631
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
what other country has as much wealth as US.
The United Arab Emirates (UAE), to name just one. The description of the Great Babylon of Revelation fits a mid-eastern country or system. I know there are several pseudo-eschatologists that publish imaginative nonsense for the masses that would have us believe that the Great Babylon of Revelation is some Western nation (USA) or church (the RCC) but don't fall for their poor scholarship that is reliable as Tim LaHaye's Left Behind series for reliability.
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RE: And that no man might buy or sell... - 10/7/2008 2:17:08 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6631
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
WE get a free pass because of what? What have we done that gives us this free pass?
Who says the USA will even be around when the Lord returns?
Are we so arrogant as to think we are the Replacement Nation for ancient Israel - or to buy into more pseudo-eschatology?
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RE: And that no man might buy or sell... - 10/7/2008 2:42:47 PM
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Sinner-Saint
Posts: 494
Joined: 10/5/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
Absurd because it flies in the face of the context.
Your simple declarative statement flies in the face of that context:
REV 18:11 "The merchants of the earth will weep and mourn over her because no one buys their cargoes any more-- 12 cargoes of gold, silver, precious stones and pearls; fine linen, purple, silk and scarlet cloth; every sort of citron wood, and articles of every kind made of ivory, costly wood, bronze, iron and marble; 13 cargoes of cinnamon and spice, of incense, myrrh and frankincense, of wine and olive oil, of fine flour and wheat; cattle and sheep; horses and carriages; ~
All those activities listed are YOUR good old business as usual, aren't they? Yes they are.
Until we come to the last bite:
- and bodies and souls of men.
THAT is what Capitalism does.
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RE: And that no man might buy or sell... - 10/7/2008 2:49:46 PM
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Sinner-Saint
Posts: 494
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
Oh, and a bib will help with that dripping.
Just what kind of Christian love does this insult show?
Just what part of how we are to treat one another in accordance with Matthew 18:15 is this?
You heap insult upon insult!
Just what part of the fruit of the spirit are you displaying?
Personally, I'm disgusted by this display of bad manners.
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RE: And that no man might buy or sell... - 10/7/2008 3:21:04 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6631
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint
Just what kind of Christian love does this insult show?
I don't know. What kind of Christian love does this insult show?:
For ye suffer fools gladly, seeing ye yourselves are wise.
-Paul
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RE: And that no man might buy or sell... - 10/7/2008 3:22:52 PM
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Peter_Gunn
Posts: 706
Joined: 6/12/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
Oh, and a bib will help with that dripping.
Just what kind of Christian love does this insult show?
Just what part of how we are to treat one another in accordance with Matthew 18:15 is this?
You heap insult upon insult!
Just what part of the fruit of the spirit are you displaying?
Personally, I'm disgusted by this display of bad manners.
Now I'm confused. How was that an insult???
I thought it was pretty witty!
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RE: And that no man might buy or sell... - 10/7/2008 3:24:36 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6631
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
Absurd because it flies in the face of the context.
Your simple declarative statement flies in the face of that context:
REV 18:11 "The merchants of the earth will weep and mourn over her because no one buys their cargoes any more-- 12 cargoes of gold, silver, precious stones and pearls; fine linen, purple, silk and scarlet cloth; every sort of citron wood, and articles of every kind made of ivory, costly wood, bronze, iron and marble; 13 cargoes of cinnamon and spice, of incense, myrrh and frankincense, of wine and olive oil, of fine flour and wheat; cattle and sheep; horses and carriages; ~
...Until we come to the last bite:
- and bodies and souls of men.
THAT is what Capitalism does.
That, sir, is what YOU want it to mean. The whole passage describes a mid-Eastern, probably Islamic, nation. Nothing in it sounds like a Western culture.
You may call it the USA all you want. Doesn't make it so.
quote:
All those activities listed are YOUR good old business as usual, aren't they? Yes they are.
ROTFLOL!!!
You slay me, you really do. I do not live in a mid-Eastern or Islamic country.
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RE: And that no man might buy or sell... - 10/7/2008 3:41:56 PM
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tracydolls
Posts: 1839
Joined: 3/30/2008
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quote:
The United Arab Emirates (UAE), to name just one. The description of the Great Babylon of Revelation fits a mid-eastern country or system. I know there are several pseudo-eschatologists that publish imaginative nonsense for the masses that would have us believe that the Great Babylon of Revelation is some Western nation (USA) or church (the RCC) but don't fall for their poor scholarship that is reliable as Tim LaHaye's Left Behind series for reliability.
Don't follow Tim Lahaye and throwing his name in every other post does not negate the fact that America is Babylon.
Does the United Arab Emirates have the military power that we do?
Lets gays get married, can abort babies on demand?
Does it have nukes even?
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
WE get a free pass because of what? What have we done that gives us this free pass?
Who says the USA will even be around when the Lord returns?
Are we so arrogant as to think we are the Replacement Nation for ancient Israel - or to buy into more pseudo-eschatology?
Straw man, Never said Israel is America.
Babylon and Israel are CLEARLY two different nations in the Bible!
WE are in the ancient city of Babylon, Basra, Iraq.
Israel is clearly somewhere else on the maps.
http://www.yourchildlearns.com/middle_east_map.htm
_____________________________
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
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RE: And that no man might buy or sell... - 10/7/2008 3:49:59 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6631
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
Don't follow Tim Lahaye and throwing his name in every other post does not negate the fact that America is Babylon.
You are correct that LaHaye being a worthless source doesn't negate anything. What DOES negate the silly notion that The Great Babylon could remotely be the USA is Revelation 18 itself. The description is so mid-Eastern that it should bring to mind turbin-headed Arabs in a camel caravan.
You may hate the US or the US system or capitalism or peanut butter, that's entirely your choice. But Revelation 18 doesn't support any of those notions.
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RE: And that no man might buy or sell... - 10/7/2008 3:50:05 PM
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tracydolls
Posts: 1839
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From Wiki
""""The UAE, rich in oil and natural gas, has become highly prosperous after gaining foreign direct investment funding in the 1970s. The country has a relatively high Human Development Index for the Asian continent, ranking 39th globally, and having the 5th highest GDP per capita in the world according to the CIA."""'
no it is not even the 2nd richest country.
Wow, but we are suppose to believe these people are the Queen of the Babylon System?
_____________________________
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
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RE: And that no man might buy or sell... - 10/7/2008 3:51:30 PM
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Kath
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I've seen some TOS 6 violations in this thread.
Just a reminder of TOS 6
6. You will not harass, threaten, embarrass or distress users, either in the community itself or via personal email, phone, physical mail or in person. You will not engage in name-calling or personal attacks in the course of discussion or debate. You will not post inflammatory remarks simply for the purpose for evoking reaction or starting fights with other community members (Often referred to as "trolling"). Overall, promoting a spirit of divisiveness in the chat and forums community will not be tolerated.
- Attacking the character or motives of someone who differs with your view or denying that he or she is a Christian is unacceptable.
Sincerely
Kath
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Please do not reply to this message within the Community.
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RE: And that no man might buy or sell... - 10/7/2008 3:52:29 PM
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tracydolls
Posts: 1839
Joined: 3/30/2008
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quote:
You are correct that LaHaye being a worthless source doesn't negate anything. What DOES negate the silly notion that The Great Babylon could remotely be the USA is Revelation 18 itself. The description is so mid-Eastern that it should bring to mind a turbin-headed Arabs in a camel caravan.
You may hate the US or the US system or capitalism or peanut butter, that's entirely your choice. But Revelation 18 doesn't support any of those notions.
That's your racism of them. I don't buy into it.
When in ONE Hour did their trade center come down? Ours came down 9/11.
What is the date of theirs coming down?
_____________________________
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
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RE: And that no man might buy or sell... - 10/7/2008 3:53:47 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6631
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
From Wiki
""""The UAE, rich in oil and natural gas, has become highly prosperous after gaining foreign direct investment funding in the 1970s. The country has a relatively high Human Development Index for the Asian continent, ranking 39th globally, and having the 5th highest GDP per capita in the world according to the CIA."""'
no it is not even the 2nd richest country.
Wow, but we are suppose to believe these people are the Queen of the Babylon System?
Where does Revelation state that the Great Babylon is the number one richest in the world? Huh? Doesn't
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RE: And that no man might buy or sell... - 10/7/2008 4:02:31 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6631
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What are the richest countries (sorry, this is not according to wikipedia)?
In order with GDP - per capita:
1. Luxembourg $68,800
2. Equatorial Guinea $50,200
3. United Arab Emirates $49,700
4. Norway $47,800
5. Ireland $43,600
6. United States $43,500
7. Andorra $38,800
8. Iceland $38,100
9. Denmark $37,000
10. Austria $35,500
http://www.aneki.com/richest.html
Can you NOW be serious and drop the prejudices against the US?
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RE: And that no man might buy or sell... - 10/7/2008 4:05:17 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6631
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MORE from a slightly different perspective:
Ten Richest Countries (based on 2004 GNP per capita in US$)
1. Luxembourg ... $56,380
2. Norway ... $51,810
3. Switzerland ... $49,600
4. United States ... $41,440
5. Denmark ... $40,750
6. Iceland ... $37,920
7. Japan ... $37,050
8. Sweden ... $35,840
9. Ireland ... $34,310
10. United Kingdom ... $33,630
from International Trade
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RE: And that no man might buy or sell... - 10/7/2008 4:27:36 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1629
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
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quote:
When in ONE Hour did their trade center come down? Ours came down 9/11.
Where does it say anything about World Trade Center buildings coming down?
Did American trade stop after 9/11?
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: And that no man might buy or sell... - 10/7/2008 4:45:40 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6631
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
When in ONE Hour did their trade center come down?
I think you might want to check these facts again too:
The north tower (1 WTC) collapsed after burning for approximately 102 minutes. That's 1 hour and 42 minutes.
People may be sloppy with their eschatology, but God isn't sloppy with His timetables. Count on it.
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