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RE: Apologetic question - 10/6/2008 4:16:07 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3590
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quote:
ORIGINAL: themoodyexperience
quote:
ORIGINAL: solarflare
Did I mention that I am turned off by the Benny Hinn show? 
Correct! We also would have accepted "I turned off the Benny Hinn show."
ROFL..........
Well, that's just what I did.
I got turned off by Benny Hinn,
and I turn Benny Hinn off.
Where's the western channel?
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Apologetic question - 10/7/2008 3:30:59 AM
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FurGodWurLivin
Posts: 978
Joined: 4/17/2005
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quote:
One sentence to build an entire doctrine? How about the dozens of other passages and context where the Apostle Paul calls out those who preach falsely, names names, exhorts us to do the same, etc? And so we start around the bush yet again.
No. It is not merely one sentence to build an entire doctrine, and yes, I am better than that. Jude tells people to contend earnestly for the FAITH that was delivered to them... not to earnestly contend for the MESSENGERS that delivered the faith to them. In fact, in the letters to Corinth, Paul tells the church that who gave them the message doesn't matter because it is God that they have been born into. As for Paul "calling out" people (as we love to put it), we must remember that this is an Apostle who has the spiritual authority over that church talking to that church. IE, Paul writes to the Corinthians about people in Corinth who withstood him. Unless you are willing to claim the apostolic authority, you are treading on thin ice.
Had you been paying attention to the last four or five times we have had this discussion, you would understand my position and the Biblicality for it.quote:
He repented to us at a dinner we had with him. But then he went on TV to curse us to death and say he wanted a "holy ghost machine gun".. so that he "could blow off our heads.."
Unless you're talking about a recent public repentance and apology that I some how have missed? Please advise, thanks. I would question the context to which your quote appeared in. I have heard people say freaky things that didn't have the literal connotation given to them. Once again, we see the context of the speaker being forgotten including social idioms, figurative connotation, and real context. Sorry to be blunt, but that is the fact.quote:
Which would be fine if everyone was alike. But people have different levels of discernment. That's why the WoFers still thrive. It's up to some to tell others through scripture: "You know, these guys aren't exactly on the up and up." The WoF'ers thrive because God allows them to. My above statement isn't about "if everyone was alike". However, it is based on the fact that the word of God is "living and active, sharper than any double edged sword, able even to the rending of bone and marrow, soul and spirit." People get offended when they hear the truth... it's why Jesus was killed (arguably by some of the most decieved people on earth), it's why Stephen was killed (by many of the same individuals), it was why so many of the prophets died as martyrs. You don't need to be working up some kind of man-made hype to seem "radical and edgy" because the truth is offensive enough. Talk to an indvidual about Jesus, and they will get offended because Christ is "foolishness to the Greeks". I'm sorry to seem heavy, but the truth is offensive enough without trying to be overly combative in your language.
And you know what, I have no problem telling someone that this doctrine isn't on the up and up. If you start painting the picture, people will get the idea of the details. If I say that God is "Three in One while still being Three", it is patently obvious that i think the 9-fold Trinity is pure balogna. Believe it or not, this is the same principle behind both the Abstract and Impressionist forms of art. But then again, you would have to be an art freak to get that reference anyway.quote:
False teachers should be exposed. They lead the lost away from the true faith and they lead saints down paths of disappointment and dispair. The WoF crowd is the worst of the bunch. Their doctrine is corrupt, their promises are empty, and the way they twist God's word horrid. The twisting of scripture of the WoF crowd is not worse than the twisting of scripture used to prove the Pre-tribulation rapture. That being said, the only difference is that the Pre-trib rapture arguments are far more subtle in their twisting.
Once again, if you combat the doctrine... it is painfully obvious who you disagree with. If we teach the truth in opposition to error rather than teaching opposition to people, we will accomplish far more. Not just because it falls in line with the words of Christ in the Sermon on the Mount (he who does these things and teaches men likewise will be called great in the kingdom of Heaven), but also because it will be teaching people the truth as well. As I said on a different thread, why play Whack-a-mole when you can unplug the machine?quote:
Is "witch-hunter---hunter" a term? lol. If I keep up like this, it soon will be... However, we are digressing at a rapid rate...
Adam
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I am hyena, Jesus is my Mufasa...
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RE: Apologetic question - 10/7/2008 8:04:06 AM
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earthless
Posts: 6110
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From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
I would question the context to which your quote appeared in.
Adam
What in the world are you talking about? You said he had repented of his teachings, failed prophecies and comments. I said that the one time he did was with us at a dinner we had with him (years ago). He repented of his WoF doctrines and said he would stop teaching them and doing the circuit he was doing.
Just a little bit after that meeting he was on TV (TBN) proclaiming death and illness curses over us and our families. Then a little bit after that he said (again on TBN) that he wished he could find one verse, just one verse, where he could have a holy ghost machine gun with which to blow our heads off.
You say he has repented of such teachings. Can you please show me where? Thank you.
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Apologetic question - 10/8/2008 3:01:10 AM
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FurGodWurLivin
Posts: 978
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Kansas City, MO
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quote:
What in the world are you talking about? You said he had repented of his teachings, failed prophecies and comments. I said that the one time he did was with us at a dinner we had with him (years ago). He repented of his WoF doctrines and said he would stop teaching them and doing the circuit he was doing.
Just a little bit after that meeting he was on TV (TBN) proclaiming death and illness curses over us and our families. Then a little bit after that he said (again on TBN) that he wished he could find one verse, just one verse, where he could have a holy ghost machine gun with which to blow our heads off.
You say he has repented of such teachings. Can you please show me where? Thank you.
I would, but you just did. You just said that he repented to you. Now, if you believe that that repentence was not honest and heartfelt, I have no room to argue with you because (A) I wasn't there, and (B) anyone who was worth their salt would know that you repent of sins to God... you only confess to people. As it is, I have no idea whether or not you are telling the truth about either of the disputed incidences. Not to be rude, but that is the fact of the matter.
As for the remark about what he said on TBN, I would be severely suspicious about the context of the comment you are alluding to. Why? Because more often than not something can be said that means "A" to the speaker which is then interpreted as "B" by the listener. Also, I would be very curious what someone who violently hates TBN is doing watching Benny Hinn on TBN... but that is just me.
Adam
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I am hyena, Jesus is my Mufasa...
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RE: Apologetic question - 10/8/2008 8:32:08 AM
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earthless
Posts: 6110
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
I would, but you just did. You just said that he repented to you.
He indeed did and we prayed together about it at the end of the meeting.
quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
Now, if you believe that that repentence was not honest and heartfelt, I have no room to argue with you because (A) I wasn't there, and (B) anyone who was worth their salt would know that you repent of sins to God... you only confess to people. As it is, I have no idea whether or not you are telling the truth about either of the disputed incidences. Not to be rude, but that is the fact of the matter.
It was reported by and documented by several different Christian apologetic ministries/organizations.
quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
As for the remark about what he said on TBN, I would be severely suspicious about the context of the comment you are alluding to. Why? Because more often than not something can be said that means "A" to the speaker which is then interpreted as "B" by the listener.
Here are the two incidents I have been talking about, in glorious video:
First video
Second video
Some more context to the second clip
quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
Also, I would be very curious what someone who violently hates TBN is doing watching Benny Hinn on TBN... but that is just me.
Adam
Violently hates? I simply test all things in light of Scripture and hold onto that which is good. Benny Hinn is a false prophet and a false teacher. I pray that he will one day repent of such blasphemies, turn from his sins, and commit to preaching the Word of God.
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Apologetic question - 10/8/2008 10:33:24 AM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
...Also, I would be very curious what someone who violently hates TBN is doing watching Benny Hinn on TBN... but that is just me.
Adam
Adam, you may not believe this, but some people would criticize a person who denounced heretics like Hinn without ever watching them or reading their works. People are just funny that way.
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RE: Apologetic question - 10/9/2008 3:57:06 AM
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FurGodWurLivin
Posts: 978
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Kansas City, MO
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quote:
He indeed did and we prayed together about it at the end of the meeting. Which is the incident that I was refering to, because you have mentioned it more than once. So no, I'm not an idiot but I have good memory.quote:
It was reported by and documented by several different Christian apologetic ministries/organizations. Congratulations. That, however, doesn't change the fact that I don't know that you were there. Why? Because I don't know you. Simply enough, I find it funny that if he repented to you, you would continue to dredge the river.quote:
Here are the two incidents I have been talking about, in glorious video:
First video
Second video
Some more context to the second clip Okay, I watched all three videos. I'm not impressed. Not only were they old tapes (I would guess early 90's at the latest) but they were edited... and edited poorly. The third clip is one that I find especially laughable because it is an amalgam of clips from different meetings, interspersed with still photos (some of who are photoshopped), and then it is purporting to to prove the idea that Benny Hinn is of the devil. I think the most telling is when in the "related videos" bar there is a video titled "BENNY HINN IS A F***** DEVIL! DON'T FOLLOW THIS HEATHEN!". My reaction: how nice to know you have calmly examined the facts and come up with such a literate and soft-spoken opinion, sir...quote:
Violently hates? I simply test all things in light of Scripture and hold onto that which is good. Benny Hinn is a false prophet and a false teacher. I pray that he will one day repent of such blasphemies, turn from his sins, and commit to preaching the Word of God. Myself, I pray that all pastors will turn from their various errors... until the Millenium, however, there will always be error in the church. Putting that aside for the moment, I can only chalk up the villainization of the TBN crowd as hatred. I can disagree without going to such lengths as to imply that I question someone's salvation or calling. The very fact that we feel a need to do so shows a grave lack of the virtue Christ declared in the Sermon on the Mount. quote:
Adam, you may not believe this, but some people would criticize a person who denounced heretics like Hinn without ever watching them or reading their works. People are just funny that way. Jimbo, as I get older, I find myself being surprised by less and less. As it is, I have heard Benny Hinn on several occasions. That being said, I don't give a wholesale endorsement of his doctrine... or anyone else's for that matter. However, I don't see what we actually accomplish by hounding him out at every opportunity in a public forum where most people would agree hat he is wrong anyway. Also, you would need to substantiate the claim that Benny Hinn is actually a heretic. Why? Because if you are a heretic, it means you are hell bound. If you are willing to proclaim that over another individual, you have branched beyond where I am willing to discuss. Example, unless Arius repented of his doctrine (arianism), Arius is in hell.
Adam
_____________________________
I am hyena, Jesus is my Mufasa...
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RE: Apologetic question - 10/9/2008 9:29:12 AM
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earthless
Posts: 6110
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
Congratulations. That, however, doesn't change the fact that I don't know that you were there. Why? Because I don't know you. Simply enough, I find it funny that if he repented to you, you would continue to dredge the river.
It was a false repentance. If I killed your cat and then repented to you. But the next day I kill your cat and say I have no problem doing it. Would you say that repentance was genuine and something I should accept?
quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
Okay, I watched all three videos. I'm not impressed. Not only were they old tapes (I would guess early 90's at the latest) but they were edited... and edited poorly. The third clip is one that I find especially laughable because it is an amalgam of clips from different meetings, interspersed with still photos (some of who are photoshopped), and then it is purporting to to prove the idea that Benny Hinn is of the devil. I think the most telling is when in the "related videos" bar there is a video titled "BENNY HINN IS A F***** DEVIL! DON'T FOLLOW THIS HEATHEN!". My reaction: how nice to know you have calmly examined the facts and come up with such a literate and soft-spoken opinion, sir...
Um, you do know I did not create those clips nor that all comments made on YouTube are mine. C'mon, Adam, you're a young guy - you know how and what YouTube is and operates.
quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
Myself, I pray that all pastors will turn from their various errors... until the Millenium, however, there will always be error in the church. Putting that aside for the moment, I can only chalk up the villainization of the TBN crowd as hatred. I can disagree without going to such lengths as to imply that I question someone's salvation or calling. The very fact that we feel a need to do so shows a grave lack of the virtue Christ declared in the Sermon on the Mount.
Adam
Where have I questioned Benny Hinn's salvation? Hatred of the twisting and perverting of God's Word? Fair enough - it is not unbiblical to have righteous anger - God actually calls us to have it when it comes to sin. Look at Jesus' righteous anger and read those passages carefully.
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Apologetic question - 10/9/2008 12:42:10 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3590
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
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Adam,
You will change your views as you experience more of life.
But enjoy where you are, you never get it back.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Apologetic question - 10/9/2008 6:55:04 PM
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SuccessinTruth
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In the New Testament, you will find numerous warnings about false prophets. If you didn't have to worry about it, I don't think Christ would have mentioned it. We all have to practice the discernment that comes from awareness of the truth of His Word, so that we don't believe corruptions of it. Satan is a deceiver, and after all this time, he's become very good at it. It is a spiritual battle that we're in, we can't just relax and count on God's grace to do all of the work for us.
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RE: Apologetic question - 10/9/2008 7:51:45 PM
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earthless
Posts: 6110
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SuccessinTruth
we can't just relax and count on God's grace to do all of the work for us.
or for other brothers and sisters to do it for you........ all the while giving them a lot of grief and trouble for doing so. How ironic.
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RE: Apologetic question - 10/10/2008 1:44:53 AM
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FurGodWurLivin
Posts: 978
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Kansas City, MO
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quote:
It was a false repentance. If I killed your cat and then repented to you. But the next day I kill your cat and say I have no problem doing it. Would you say that repentance was genuine and something I should accept? Okay, on a slightly comical note this whole situation would be akward because you already killed my cat.
To be perfectly level, I'm supposed to forgive you seventy times seven according to Jesus. Judging repentence is not my job... especially because repenetence is supposed to be done to God.quote:
Um, you do know I did not create those clips nor that all comments made on YouTube are mine. C'mon, Adam, you're a young guy - you know how and what YouTube is and operates. Yes, I do know that. That is also why I didn't claim that you made all those clips or that you wrote all the comments. I'm telling you that the video clips you referrenced are quite obviously made with a very specific bias.quote:
Where have I questioned Benny Hinn's salvation? Hatred of the twisting and perverting of God's Word? Fair enough - it is not unbiblical to have righteous anger - God actually calls us to have it when it comes to sin. Look at Jesus' righteous anger and read those passages carefully. So you think that those you lable as "false prophets" and "false teachers" are actually going to be in heaven? Then God is not faithful to judge individuals. The idea of a False Prophet or False Teacher is someone who is either decieved and fully under the control of Satan, or they are liars attempting to make Christians follow themself. So yes, if you lable someone as a "False _____" you are questioning their salvation. Example, Arius was a False Teacher.
I agree, it is not unbiblical to have righteous anger. However, we are not supposed to sin in our anger. Until we receive our resurrected bodies, holding on to anger is the single most dangerous thing you can do to yourself.quote:
Adam,
You will change your views as you experience more of life.
But enjoy where you are, you never get it back. Undoubtedly. But rather than patting me on the head in a condescending manner and a "there there...", consider that I might actually have some grounding in my opinion.quote:
In the New Testament, you will find numerous warnings about false prophets. If you didn't have to worry about it, I don't think Christ would have mentioned it. SuccessinTruth... I'm not saying there isn't such a thing as False Prophets. I'm saying that we don't need to stress out in labling people as such. I'm saying that if we teach truth, the false becomes more and more obvious. Why focus on the problem rather than the solution?quote:
Satan is a deceiver, and after all this time, he's become very good at it. It is a spiritual battle that we're in, we can't just relax and count on God's grace to do all of the work for us. Amen. I'm not saying that we just let God sort out the nasty details. I'm saying that your soul is in your keeping. I'm also saying that through prayer God can strengthen people and guide them... and God is far more convincing than any mere mortal.
Study your Bible. Learn the Truth. Until the Millenium, the false will always be present. Why run yourself ragged looking for falsehood when you can receive a grounding in the truth?quote:
or for other brothers and sisters to do it for you........ all the while giving them a lot of grief and trouble for doing so. How ironic. And I'm the one accused of delusions of grandeur......
When you harp on an issue that is half as earth-shattering as you seem to think everything is, I will be more than willing to agree with you. My advice? Let the big things be big (ie, God) and let the small things be small(what human beings are doing). I find that most of the hysteria around this is because we don't trust God to (A) guide us into all truth, and (B) to be faithful to the prayer of Jesus in John 17 that all whom had been given to Him would be kept. In God's eyes, who is Benny Hinn but a speck of dust that is here and then gone?
Adam
_____________________________
I am hyena, Jesus is my Mufasa...
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RE: Apologetic question - 10/10/2008 8:42:24 AM
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earthless
Posts: 6110
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
Okay, on a slightly comical note this whole situation would be akward because you already killed my cat.
To be perfectly level, I'm supposed to forgive you seventy times seven according to Jesus. Judging repentence is not my job... especially because repenetence is supposed to be done to God.
Benny would have to first genuinely repent for your argument to work. If he were to repent today, I would accept it. As to your last statement, repentance can also be done to another individual not just God, you know that.
quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
Yes, I do know that. That is also why I didn't claim that you made all those clips or that you wrote all the comments. I'm telling you that the video clips you referrenced are quite obviously made with a very specific bias.
Everything is biased in this world, friend. Nothing and no one is unbiased for that is what truth and falsehoods delve into.
If you're fat (which I know you're not) than it is not "biased" of me to say you're overweight. It is stating an observed truth.
quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
So you think that those you lable as "false prophets" and "false teachers" are actually going to be in heaven?
It is not my place to say who is saved and or is not. Only God knows an individual's heart. All I can do is judge fruits and people's own declarations.
quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
Then God is not faithful to judge individuals. The idea of a False Prophet or False Teacher is someone who is either decieved and fully under the control of Satan, or they are liars attempting to make Christians follow themself. So yes, if you lable someone as a "False _____" you are questioning their salvation. Example, Arius was a False Teacher.
I agree, it is not unbiblical to have righteous anger. However, we are not supposed to sin in our anger. Until we receive our resurrected bodies, holding on to anger is the single most dangerous thing you can do to yourself.
I have not sinned in my anger, Adam. I am a concerned Christian who has a heart for God's Word.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Apologetic question - 10/10/2008 4:13:31 PM
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Mark328
Posts: 158
Joined: 8/9/2008
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TBN is just bad news, period. The church I used to attend is affiliated with TBN. They preach a good gospel, it's just too bad that they don't follow it. Examples: they show favoritism towards the rich people that attend, while not having time for the average income or poor people; faith is determined SOLELY on the amount of money you give them; they have no problem supporting ministries sponsored by the rich ones at church but will tell the poor ones starting a ministry that they are on their own; if you're hospitalized, you will be asked why you haven't tithed while you've been in the hospital.
Stay away from ANYTHING associated with TBN!!!
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RE: Apologetic question - 10/10/2008 11:38:41 PM
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Rick4Him
Posts: 99
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Mark328,
I would say that your about 95% right. I have seen a few programs on TBN that are worthy of praise. I saw for the first time "The Privledged Planet" and even bought the DVD. It is about the best tool I have for promoting the cosomolgical apologetic argument for the existence of God. I like Kirk Cameron and Ray Comfort, but just yesterday I saw Franklin Graham being interviewed by Jan Crouch. I don't like to judge someone by their looks but she is way out there. Now I agree the majority like Hinn, Copeland, Hagen and Hagee are preaching a different gospel. When some of them state we are little gods and that God has physical features then they are heretics.
Have you ever watched or listened to Jesse Duplantis? This guy is so agrogant in his preaching. He brags about being rich. Does anyone believe Jesus ever promoted this?
Adam states that the WOFer's are thriving by the hand of God. How do you know this. Did the Apsotles become rich, did the first Christians become rich? What happens to those poor people who are told to sow a seed in hopes of a BIG return and when it doesn't come they are shattered and told they don't have enough faith. THIS IS EVIL!!!!!
Rick
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RE: Apologetic question - 10/11/2008 4:37:01 AM
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FurGodWurLivin
Posts: 978
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline
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quote:
Benny would have to first genuinely repent for your argument to work. If he were to repent today, I would accept it. As to your last statement, repentance can also be done to another individual not just God, you know that. "Genuinely repent". So you find a bibilical basis to not forgive the man who repented to you. I'm glad God doesn't operate like that.quote:
Everything is biased in this world, friend. Nothing and no one is unbiased for that is what truth and falsehoods delve into. Truly, no one is unbiased. However, those videos you linked to were edited (very poorly, I might add) specifically to make Benny Hinn look like an operative of Satan. For example, take a look at some of the very photoshopped images presented in the third video, and it is very clear that this isn't intended to be a sterile reporting of facts (like someone being overweight would be). This was a video made with an agenda to slam Benny Hinn. As a debater, that does not impress me at all.quote:
As to your last statement, repentance can also be done to another individual not just God, you know that.
I believe you are confusing a couple of things. Confession is not the same as repentance. Me apologizing for a sin I committed against you is not the same as repenting to God. In the example you gave earlier, you are drawing a parallel between you killing my cat (which would be a sin against me) and someone teaching bad doctrine (which is a sin against God). There is a reason why when people come to salvation they repent to God and not man. Simple enough? Unless you are taking Benny Hinn's ministry as a sin against you (which is putting a lot on yourself), then he does not have to repent to you (unless you are a spiritual authority over him).quote:
If you're fat (which I know you're not) than it is not "biased" of me to say you're overweight. It is stating an observed truth. There are a lot of things that can be done "stating a fact". Are you telling a person that they are overweight or that they are obscenely obese? That is what I'm driving at. I can say someone is overweight (or teaching bad doctrine) without insulting them by telling them that they are morbidly obese (You False Teacher!). If someone is actually a heretic (such as Arius was), then you need to be a bit more extreme. Until then, you accomplish nothing but hurting the person you are proposing to help. Even then, we aren't even talking TO Benny Hinn. You are coming out here telling anyone and everyone who will listen that person "X" is insanely obese. Normally we wold call that such things as "insensitive", "rude", "hurtful", "unChristlike"... yet for some reason it is perfectly acceptable when it is a doctrinal dispute? If anything, this is when we should be MORE sensitive. An offended individual is exponentially more likely to shut you out than be persuaded by you.quote:
It is not my place to say who is saved and or is not. Only God knows an individual's heart. All I can do is judge fruits and people's own declarations. Au Contraire... by declaring someone a False Prophet or False Teacher, you are condemning them to the wrath of God. Just take a gander at Jeremiah and that becomes patently clear. You may not mean to be judging someone's salvation, but that is precisely what you are doing.quote:
I have not sinned in my anger, Adam. I am a concerned Christian who has a heart for God's Word. If your anger is causing you to lash out at fellow Christians, then yes you have. If you say that this doesn't apply for some reason, then once again we have gone to judging salvation. Honestly, it seems more that you have axe to grind than anything else. If we claim to love God whom we cannot see, and cannot love our brother whom we can see, then we are liars... according to First John, anyway. After all, love covers the multitude of sins. God will judge... in that day, I will stand in awe and let my words be few.
I know that Benny Hinn has bad doctrine. I know that I have bad doctrine. I know that everyone on this earth that claims the name of Christ has bad doctrine. It is because of this knowledge that I hesitate to run around outing every person I disagree with as a heretic, false teacher or false prophet.
quote:
When some of them state we are little gods and that God has physical features then they are heretics. You think that saying God has features makes someone a heretic? There are countless scriptures that speak of the various "facial features" of God. Using the Bible, we can say that God has eyes, God has hands, ears, arms, legs... Read the various theophanies and you get a very intriguing picture. Now some may say, "But God is spirit!" Very true. Notice that we are made in His image, and we are not nebulous "auras" of elemental energy. To make things even more intriguing, Jesus is fully God and fully man... meaning that He is a man forever... meaning that Jesus has a physical form for all of eternity. So you can fully argue for overliteralization, but heresy? Not in the slightest.
The little gods doctrine is made from a bad use of the theological concept of putting on Christ. Is it heresy? No, but it is closer to it than anything else the strictest WoF adherents have to offer. Even then, only a few believe it and fewer still teach it. Error and Heresy are not the same thing.quote:
Adam states that the WOFer's are thriving by the hand of God. How do you know this. Did the Apsotles become rich, did the first Christians become rich? You miss my point, sir. Hitler thrived because God caused him to. Nebuchadnezzar, Rameses II, Antiochus Epiphanes... all of these were given precedence by the grace of God. How do I know, therefore, that the WoF movement thrives because of the Hand of God? Because that is how anything meets with success or failure. That is why prayer is far more important than our beligerant squabbles.quote:
What happens to those poor people who are told to sow a seed in hopes of a BIG return and when it doesn't come they are shattered and told they don't have enough faith. The same thing that happens to depressed people when the preacher tells them to come to Jesus and He will make it better... only for them to answer the altar call and feel no different afterwards. This is not a problem isolated to the WoF movement, it is only found in an incarnation that is less palatable to the mainstream.
Adam
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I am hyena, Jesus is my Mufasa...
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RE: Apologetic question - 10/11/2008 8:40:59 AM
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earthless
Posts: 6110
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
"Genuinely repent". So you find a bibilical basis to not forgive the man who repented to you. I'm glad God doesn't operate like that.
So if I lie to God and fake repent - He will count that as genuine repentance?
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Apologetic question - 10/11/2008 3:51:55 PM
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Rick4Him
Posts: 99
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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You think that saying God has features makes someone a heretic? There are countless scriptures that speak of the various "facial features" of God. Using the Bible, we can say that God has eyes, God has hands, ears, arms, legs... Read the various theophanies and you get a very intriguing picture. Now some may say, "But God is spirit!" Very true. Notice that we are made in His image, and we are not nebulous "auras" of elemental energy. To make things even more intriguing, Jesus is fully God and fully man... meaning that He is a man forever... meaning that Jesus has a physical form for all of eternity. So you can fully argue for overliteralization, but heresy? Not in the slightest.
The little gods doctrine is made from a bad use of the theological concept of putting on Christ. Is it heresy? No, but it is closer to it than anything else the strictest WoF adherents have to offer. Even then, only a few believe it and fewer still teach it. Error and Heresy are not the same thing.
Adam, Kenneth Copeland specifically states that God has a 9 inch hand span and that he is about 6 ft. 2 in. tall and weights about 200 lbs. He's not talking about a theophany, he believes God has a physical form and he also believes he's a god. He also believes Jesus had to go to hell to fight Satan and whoop him as he says to take the keys of hell away from Satan. He states that Jesus could have lost that battle and then where would we have been. Kind of sounds like Open Theism doesn't it.
Adam, I would pray you seriously consider checking out the motives of these men before you defend them. You sound like a very serious and spiritual person but you worry me with the folks you defend.
Rick
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RE: Apologetic question - 10/11/2008 3:56:40 PM
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Rick4Him
Posts: 99
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
The same thing that happens to depressed people when the preacher tells them to come to Jesus and He will make it better... only for them to answer the altar call and feel no different afterwards. This is not a problem isolated to the WoF movement, it is only found in an incarnation that is less palatable to the mainstream.
Adam,
You are right, any preacher who promises anyone they will become well by just going to the alter is just like Hinn and Copeland, but most preachers don't do this unless they are influenced by the TBN crowd.
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RE: Apologetic question - 10/11/2008 7:50:15 PM
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earthless
Posts: 6110
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Rick4Him
You think that saying God has features makes someone a heretic?
Rick
Who are you speaking to here?
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Apologetic question - 10/12/2008 3:54:09 AM
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brothertodd
Posts: 129
Joined: 4/7/2008
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We should expose false docrine when we see it
We are to Test all things , hold on to what is good and astain from what is evil (1Thes. 5:21-22)
I have read Christianity in Crisis and look forward in March when the updated version comes out.
And I suggest the audio version too. Hank doesnt make blind allegations, Every one is backed up, the audio has the actual person saying what was said. Hanks books are informative and appear on the side of truth however the person has been shown to be hypocritical. For that info go to the original Bible answer man Walter martins Apologetics index http://www.apologeticsindex.org/ and look up Hanks name. this Info however doesnt stop me from His books and teachings . he appears to keep on the right path with that.
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Brother Todd, servant of Christ
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RE: Apologetic question - 10/12/2008 4:05:39 AM
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FurGodWurLivin
Posts: 978
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline
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quote:
So if I lie to God and fake repent - He will count that as genuine repentance? I never said that. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive them. That isn't some jacked up humanistic interpretation of the Bible... that is the Bible.
What I am saying is that someone came and repented to you. Biblically speaking, you need to forgive them any offenses committed against you. What I see here is a justification of a lack of forgivness. You are attempting to bypass my point, and it just doesn't hold up.
God has the capability to accurately discern the heart of man. Man, as of yet, does not.quote:
Adam, Kenneth Copeland specifically states that God has a 9 inch hand span and that he is about 6 ft. 2 in. tall and weights about 200 lbs. He's not talking about a theophany, he believes God has a physical form Remembering that Jesus is a man for all of eternity, I would be more than willing to believe that Jesus' physical frame looks something like that. Considering that in the various theophanies God was seen in a form that greatly resembled humans (ie, I saw One seated on the throne), I am more than willing to believe that Kenneth Copeland had a vision and that is how God appeared to him. So no... that is not heresy.quote:
and he also believes he's a god. He believes that he is being "conformed to the image of Christ". There is a difference.quote:
He also believes Jesus had to go to hell to fight Satan and whoop him as he says to take the keys of hell away from Satan. Once again, not heretical. Is it wrong? Of course! Jesus, being fully God, had full authority over Satan in the first place... so yes, the idea of a fight between Jesus and Satan is not right. But it isn't heretical either.quote:
He states that Jesus could have lost that battle and then where would we have been. Kind of sounds like Open Theism doesn't it. Not really. To me, it sounds like the argument of whether or not Jesus had the capability to sin in His physical life on earth. If you believe that Jesus had the capacity to sin yet resisted it perfectly (which is not heretical but is a can of worms), then the idea that Jesus could have succombed is not heretical either.quote:
Adam, I would pray you seriously consider checking out the motives of these men before you defend them. You sound like a very serious and spiritual person but you worry me with the folks you defend.
Rick Your concern is dually noted.
That being said, can you actually condemn the motives of the various preachers you would care to argue? Is Benny Hinn a lying leader of a personality cult or is he honestly mistaken on a couple points of doctrine? Is Kenneth Copeland attempting to lead people into poverty and hero worship or does he honestly believe that he has a message to deliver to the Body of Christ?
We cannot accurately answer these questions because it requires a hefty amount of Judgment far beyond the human capacity for accuracy. Until such a time as those questions are answered by a definitive source, they have to remain a question mark. To do otherwise is an intellectual disservice to both our own doctrinal wranglings and to the people you are attempting to turn away from following these people.quote:
Adam,
You are right, any preacher who promises anyone they will become well by just going to the alter is just like Hinn and Copeland, but most preachers don't do this unless they are influenced by the TBN crowd. I think you'd be surprised... take a tour of the deep south and you will find a lot of "Jesus wants to be your best friend!" type churches. Being a person with a lot of experience in deep south churches, that is precisely why I avoid making blanket statements for the most part.quote:
Who are you speaking to here? I believe it was intended to be a quote of my above statement. But that is just a guess.
Adam
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I am hyena, Jesus is my Mufasa...
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RE: Apologetic question - 10/12/2008 9:14:33 AM
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earthless
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