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Ectopic Pregnancy - 10/6/2008 5:52:30 PM
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ladyichigo
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I don't know if this issue was ever brought up here, but since I can't find any topics related to it, I wanted to bring it up. First off, as you know voting time is coming up. I am pro-life, and I believe that life begins at conception. The issue of banning ALL types of abortion (I think) will be on the ballot. According to this medical dictionary, THIS is what abortion means.
I understand that an ectopic pregnancy is when the fertilized egg fails to travel down into the uterus and starts to develop outside the uterus, commonly in the fallopian tube. Most medical experts will tell a woman that the developing fetus will never be viable and failure to terminate the pregnancy will be fatal to the mother.
I guess I'm just struggling with the issue because it involves the termination of a life....but then the procedure is done to preserve another. Is terminating a ectopic pregnancy considered "abortion"?
From one voter to another, would voting to prohibit ALL types of abortion make the termination of an ectopic pregnancy or any other type of pregnancy that will endanger the life of the mother be made illegal?
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Mari
I'm not cool enough to come up with a witty quote, but God is still good.
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RE: Ectopic Pregnancy - 10/6/2008 6:00:30 PM
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JimboFletch
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My wife had one. The baby died and the burst tube almost killed my wife from blood loss. IOW, the baby aborted itself and that was the first either of us knew about it - there was no decsion to make.
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RE: Ectopic Pregnancy - 10/6/2008 6:16:39 PM
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solo_soprano22
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I actually have asked this before.... I'll try to post links if I can find them.
I myself can't see how one is 100% pro-life but will terminate an ectopic. Ectopic babies have lived, and so have their mothers. I think once it's a certain level of risk to some, it's okay to abort. (I'm not talking about if the baby has died already though. I mean killing a living baby who's in an ectopic position.)
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RE: Ectopic Pregnancy - 10/6/2008 6:32:41 PM
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shell18_86
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maybe this will help you...i too do not believe in abortion. this is what happened to me. almost a year ago i went to the emergency room. i had been bleeding for a month but didnt think anything of it because my period had been crazy for over 6 months. i went that night because i started getting a bad pain in my left side. when i told the doctor that, they immediately took me back. they put a catheter in me and at that point my tube ruptured. i was 2 and a half months pregnant in my tubes and did not know it. i also would like to add i wanted this child. when they did my ultrasound i was told i had been bleeding to death and was within 24 hrs of dying. they had to do emergency surgury and i was in the hospital for a week with a tube in my stomach pumping out the blood in my stomach. i almost died because i was not aware i had an ectopic pregnancy. i grieve for the child i lost but if you were to ask me if i knew about the ectopic pregnancy at the beginning if i would get rid of it my answer is yes i would. an ectopic pregnancy will kill you. there is, in my opinion, a big diff. between having a ectopic pregnancy which is something you cannot control and having a normal pregnancy and termination it because you dont want it.
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it is in that moment, when i remember that god loves me and will never leave me, that i am overcome with a sense of peace like i have never felt before and i smile because i know everything will be ok.
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RE: Ectopic Pregnancy - 10/6/2008 6:35:11 PM
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Restored_Heart
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I have looked for examples of ectopics surviving, but can't find any.... Everything shows that they terminate with severe maternal complications....
It would be a hard question to answer.
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RE: Ectopic Pregnancy - 10/6/2008 6:45:44 PM
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Sideways
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I've never heard of an ectopic pregnancy surviving to viability, either. If the baby has no chance of making it long enough to be viable, and the mother has very high odds of severe complications, then in my opinion, the abortion is completely justified.
Right now I have an 18 month old son and a husband who relies on me. I am also pregnant, and if I knew beyond the shadow of a doubt that the pregnancy would possibly kill me and the new baby had zero chance for survival, I would consider it my responsibility to terminate, because my son and husband rely on me, and my parents would also be heartbroken by my death.
But that's my own personal feelings. I would be sorely grieved at the loss of my child, and I totally understand why other women would hesitate. I would also be on my knees asking God for forgiveness, because there's no getting around the reality that I would have to take my own child's life, no matter the circumstances.
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RE: Ectopic Pregnancy - 10/6/2008 7:15:13 PM
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solo_soprano22
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I'm not sure what to consider it. Is it 100% pro-life to allow abortion to save the mother due to high risk factors? I think that's the question. What level of risk has to be there for it to be in the right (morally) to terminate? I'm genuinely asking; I don't share the same views as most everyone else, so I can't see what reasoning is going on. There was a discussion about it in Current Events (for some reason), but it didn't go all that far. I guess the OP is kind of wondering about the same thing.
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For God, For Learning, Forever.
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RE: Ectopic Pregnancy - 10/6/2008 7:24:04 PM
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GroupW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22
I'm not sure what to consider it. Is it 100% pro-life to allow abortion to save the mother due to high risk factors? I think that's the question. What level of risk has to be there for it to be in the right (morally) to terminate? I'm genuinely asking; I don't share the same views as most everyone else, so I can't see what reasoning is going on. There was a discussion about it in Current Events (for some reason), but it didn't go all that far. I guess the OP is kind of wondering about the same thing.
Just for the record (and to make sure Jimbo knows I was paying attention  ) , the fallopian tubes are not capable of carrying an infant to term. At some point, the tube will rupture and put the mother in jeopardy. The child will die either way. In terms of a pro-life stance, I would think the decision faced by a couple in this situation would be heart-rending, but fairly clear. There is no substantive chance of saving the baby, and a real and imminent risk of death to the mother. To me, there would be no choice - I would end the pregnancy and save my wife's life. No question at all in my mind.
Ethically, the situation would be similar to doing triage in a natural disaster operating room. Imagine two patients that are dying. One operating room, and one surgeon. The surgeon has to choose which one he will working on first. The first patient has a mortal wound and can't be saved. The second can be saved, but only if worked on first. Is it morally wrong to deny care to the first in order to save the second? Generally, we as Christians find this a tragic but necessary and very ethical decision. We do what we can to save whom we can, and trust that God will be merciful upon the souls of those we can't.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Ectopic Pregnancy - 10/6/2008 7:27:53 PM
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Leslie_JnJs_mom
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I do not know what I would do. I guess before anyone says it is not OK for a woman to terminate a tubal pregnancy then they had better imagine their sister, daughter or best friend laying on a mauritians slab just to save a baby that died with the mother anyway. No baby was saved and now other children have no mother if this was not a first baby, a husband has no wife and parents have lost a daughter. We are not talking about a 10% chance of mortality it is more like 99.999 % chance. There are always the miracles so that is why you find 10 or 20 stories about miracle babies.
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RE: Ectopic Pregnancy - 10/6/2008 7:41:34 PM
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GroupW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JnJs_mom
I do not know what I would do. I guess before anyone says it is not OK for a woman to terminate a tubal pregnancy then they had better imagine their sister, daughter or best friend laying on a mauritians slab
I know this is a serious topic and intensely personal to some, but I do sometimes get a chuckle out of what spell check programs sometimes do to a perfectly innocent post. I'm sure Mauritania is a beautiful place, but personally I too would like to stay off of their slabs.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Ectopic Pregnancy - 10/6/2008 7:44:14 PM
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OneOfHisJewels
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quote:
From one voter to another, would voting to prohibit ALL types of abortion make the termination of an ectopic pregnancy or any other type of pregnancy that will endanger the life of the mother be made illegal?
That shouldn't be a problem, because even in the times when abortion had been illegal (and contrary to popular belief, it hasn't always been illegal prior to 1973..sadly the pioneer times saw quite a bit of abortion/infanticide)..there has always been clauses to allow for saving the life of the mother.
_____________________________
"We basically use what I have seen referred to as "get off your butt" parenting. It employs more interaction, more redirection, more prevention, and usually less spanking."
-Mrs. Wifey
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RE: Ectopic Pregnancy - 10/6/2008 8:08:38 PM
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ladyichigo
Posts: 572
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22
Is it 100% pro-life to allow abortion to save the mother due to high risk factors? I think that's the question.
Hmm...that would be part of the question.
I think what I'm trying to also ask is as to what extent will the law deem as "Abortion", because if they consider termination of tubal pregnancy, abortion, then am I correct to presume that, that procedure would be made illegal IF a law should pass that makes ALL abortions illegal?
Here's the section on Abortion Issues I copied and pasted from the "Project Vote Smart" site.
a) Abortions should always be illegal.
b) Abortions should always be legal.
c) Abortions should be legal only within the first trimester of pregnancy.
d) Abortions should be legal when the pregnancy resulted from incest or rape.
e) Abortions should be legal when the life of the woman is endangered.
f) Prohibit the dilation and extraction procedure, also known as "partial-birth" abortion.
g) Prohibit public funding of abortions and of organizations that advocate or perform abortions.
h) Other or expanded principles
...and would I be considered a hypocrite if I were to choose "e"?
_____________________________
Mari
I'm not cool enough to come up with a witty quote, but God is still good.
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RE: Ectopic Pregnancy - 10/6/2008 8:15:25 PM
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solo_soprano22
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GroupW
quote:
ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22
I'm not sure what to consider it. Is it 100% pro-life to allow abortion to save the mother due to high risk factors? I think that's the question. What level of risk has to be there for it to be in the right (morally) to terminate? I'm genuinely asking; I don't share the same views as most everyone else, so I can't see what reasoning is going on. There was a discussion about it in Current Events (for some reason), but it didn't go all that far. I guess the OP is kind of wondering about the same thing.
Just for the record (and to make sure Jimbo knows I was paying attention ) , the fallopian tubes are not capable of carrying an infant to term. At some point, the tube will rupture and put the mother in jeopardy. The child will die either way. In terms of a pro-life stance, I would think the decision faced by a couple in this situation would be heart-rending, but fairly clear. There is no substantive chance of saving the baby, and a real and imminent risk of death to the mother. To me, there would be no choice - I would end the pregnancy and save my wife's life. No question at all in my mind.
Ethically, the situation would be similar to doing triage in a natural disaster operating room. Imagine two patients that are dying. One operating room, and one surgeon. The surgeon has to choose which one he will working on first. The first patient has a mortal wound and can't be saved. The second can be saved, but only if worked on first. Is it morally wrong to deny care to the first in order to save the second? Generally, we as Christians find this a tragic but necessary and very ethical decision. We do what we can to save whom we can, and trust that God will be merciful upon the souls of those we can't.
I think a tube may be able to carry a baby to viability with both living, since an ovary has. An embryo will latch to any decent blood source. I remember one latching on to a major blood vessel and living (until termination)..I can't remember if it was the inferior vena cava or not; that's what comes to mind. My point is, some say it's always wrong to abort... but an ectopic is abortable because of the risk. But ectopics can live and so can the mother (not good chances, but it has happened and still can). Is killing the baby overridden by the fact that it was risky?
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For God, For Learning, Forever.
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RE: Ectopic Pregnancy - 10/6/2008 8:15:54 PM
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ladyichigo
Posts: 572
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From: Honolulu
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quote:
ORIGINAL: OneOfHisJewels
quote:
From one voter to another, would voting to prohibit ALL types of abortion make the termination of an ectopic pregnancy or any other type of pregnancy that will endanger the life of the mother be made illegal?
That shouldn't be a problem, because even in the times when abortion had been illegal (and contrary to popular belief, it hasn't always been illegal prior to 1973..sadly the pioneer times saw quite a bit of abortion/infanticide)..there has always been clauses to allow for saving the life of the mother.
Ahh~! I didn't see this post until I posted my response.
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Mari
I'm not cool enough to come up with a witty quote, but God is still good.
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RE: Ectopic Pregnancy - 10/6/2008 8:17:54 PM
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solo_soprano22
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I think they're close to being the same. Are you asking would you be a hypocrite for choosing "e" when it would technically be an abortion, and you're against abortion?
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RE: Ectopic Pregnancy - 10/6/2008 8:56:22 PM
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OneOfHisJewels
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ladyichigo,
Wanting babies to live insofar as it is possible, but also understanding that in an extreme case your life might have to be saved rather than a baby's IS being a 100% pro-life. It's just being pro-life, and having common sense as well.
This is one thing that I think the catholic church did wrong in the past...they were SO pro-life, they didn't even allow exceptions for tubals..so usually mother and baby BOTH died..and that made the catholic church seem less credible in their pro life stance.
_____________________________
"We basically use what I have seen referred to as "get off your butt" parenting. It employs more interaction, more redirection, more prevention, and usually less spanking."
-Mrs. Wifey
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RE: Ectopic Pregnancy - 10/6/2008 9:12:25 PM
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ladyichigo
Posts: 572
Joined: 10/23/2007
From: Honolulu
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quote:
ORIGINAL: OneOfHisJewels
ladyichigo,
Wanting babies to live insofar as it is possible, but also understanding that in an extreme case your life might have to be saved rather than a baby's IS being a 100% pro-life. It's just being pro-life, and having common sense as well.
Thanks for the reassurance.
_____________________________
Mari
I'm not cool enough to come up with a witty quote, but God is still good.
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RE: Ectopic Pregnancy - 10/6/2008 9:16:01 PM
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10SNE1?
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ladyichigo
quote:
ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22
quote:
Are you asking would you be a hypocrite for choosing "e" when it would technically be an abortion, and you're against abortion?
I guess I would have to say I am not 100% pro-life in the sense that should such issue come up, a decision must be made between the fate of the baby who's existence inside me may kill me, and the preservation of my life so that I can raise my other children who are living outside of my body.
I'm "anti-abortion" but I totally disagree with this corruption of the term "pro-life". Ladyichigo, I'm not saying you have corrupted the term, I believe that you are truly wrestling with the tension this situation would create.
However, to truly be "pro-life" one must be in favor of protection ALL "innocent" life. In this case, the mother is no less "innocent" than the child. And in a case where the baby has no ( outside of a true miracle) chance of survival, to insist on not terminating does NOT make you "pro-life"....it simply makes you guilty of forcing the death of TWO people.
The argument about surviving family members, while heartbreaking, need not play into this discussion at all. If you don't value the life of the women....simply because she has a "right to life"...then you aren't truly "pro-life"...you are just anti-abortion.
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RE: Ectopic Pregnancy - 10/6/2008 10:12:40 PM
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Sideways
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That is a good way of putting it, the difference between anti-abortion and pro-life. Thank you for your post.
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) But, I did a quick search and saw bunches more that I can't post. They're there. (I'm sure some are repeats.) 
I'm on the fence here....I am torn. I have 2 healthy children, ages 2.5 and 6.5. Right now I have no plans to have another child. Should I conceive even though we are not financially ready for another, I have no doubt that that I will keep the baby. My husband is finishing up school to become a math teacher, and right now I'm the sole provider for the family. If something were to happen to me, my husband will have to quit school and find himself a full-time job to support the family, on top of being a single parent of 2 young kids. I guess I would have to say I am not 100% pro-life in the sense that should such issue come up, a decision must be made between the fate of the baby who's existence inside me may kill me, and the preservation of my life so that I can raise my other children who are living outside of my body.
