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RE: Ectopic Pregnancy - 10/8/2008 4:16:48 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
Of course my husband and my two daughters are more important to me than words can describe. But I couldn't in good conscience terminate a pregnancy, even if that baby weren't going to make it anyway. I liken it to women who are told that their babies will die shortly after childbirth from medical complications. I wouldn't abort a baby in that situation either. It's not for me to say when an innocent life should end. To some that may sound naive but to me it is the logical conclusion of my pro-life/anti-aboriton stance.
To me, that's more like allowing a parent to remain on life support long after their brain ceases to function or to allow a puppy to suffer for days after being mangled by a car.
Sometimes, the responsible and humane thing is to suck up our faint-hearted feelings and do the best thing for the situation.
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RE: Ectopic Pregnancy - 10/8/2008 4:30:08 PM
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1love1God1way
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It's been alluded to, and I agree with it. . . I would consider an ectopic pregnancy, especially within the tubes, to be in the category of a miscarriage. It isn't suppose to happen that way. It is not a normal pregnancy. It is not killing a baby out of any objectionable reason.
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RE: Ectopic Pregnancy - 10/8/2008 4:42:03 PM
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clag4christ
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quote:
Sometimes, the responsible and humane thing is to suck up our faint-hearted feelings and do the best thing for the situation.
We'll have to agree to disagree then...because it's not my 'faint-hearted' feelings that are getting in the way. It's my conscience.
And there is a big difference between an animal who was mauled and mangled by a car and human life...
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<-----Jael as Tinkerbell - Halloween 2008
If you don't want people to insult your intelligence; don't make it so obvious that you have none.
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RE: Ectopic Pregnancy - 10/8/2008 4:52:58 PM
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phosadaud
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Clag - I can respect your decision to not seek medical intervention. I don't agree with it, but as long as you are realistic about the facts, that is your call to make. And by the way - do understand that even if you are sitting in the ER and they know what's going on, is no guarantee you won't die of a ruptured ectopic. And that doesn't even begin to address the complications - some of which are permanent that can & often do result. In the end it is your decision and only you can make it though.
My conscious personally says that when there is no hope barring a direct miracle of God, I will not risk my life nor risk for my family the loss of their mother or wife or daughter so something that is going to happen whether I do something or not.
To me it is more like doing CPR on someone who is dying of cancer. You may be able to keep them going a little longer but aren't going to change the outcome - only cause more pain and distress.
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~Kristin~
Resume Quotations: "Reason for leaving last job: The owner gave new meaning to the word 'paranoia.' I prefer to elaborate privately."
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RE: Ectopic Pregnancy - 10/8/2008 4:57:16 PM
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PrincessDonna
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From: Cow country, Upstate NY
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I hope to never find out what I would do, but as one who has had an abortion and known the awful guilt I felt from that for years, I don't think I could stop a beating heart in me even if I thought I might die. I would definitely stay in the hospital if we chose to wait and see though, so that if/when it ruptured, I could have surgery right away.
Tough choices, for sure. I do not consider ending a tubal pregnancy an abortion, but FOR ME and with my history, it would be too close for comfort.
I have a family member who has had two tubal pregnancies in the past year and she went with the anti-cancer shots to end it and make the body absorb it. One of those pregnancies took THREE shots to end. That never sat right with me. I urged her to wait and watch and see what happened for a little while, but she was afraid of needing surgery (I guess the shot only works really early on??). Anyway...wasn't my choice to make, but I did let her know my thoughts, gently of course.
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~Psalm 91:4~
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RE: Ectopic Pregnancy - 10/8/2008 4:57:26 PM
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clag4christ
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quote:
ORIGINAL: phosadaud
Clag - I can respect your decision to not seek medical intervention. I don't agree with it, but as long as you are realistic about the facts, that is your call to make. And by the way - do understand that even if you are sitting in the ER and they know what's going on, is no guarantee you won't die of a ruptured ectopic. And that doesn't even begin to address the complications - some of which are permanent that can & often do result. In the end it is your decision and only you can make it though.
My conscious personally says that when there is no hope barring a direct miracle of God, I will not risk my life nor risk for my family the loss of their mother or wife or daughter so something that is going to happen whether I do something or not.
To me it is more like doing CPR on someone who is dying of cancer. You may be able to keep them going a little longer but aren't going to change the outcome - only cause more pain and distress.
Thanks! I do see your point. And I respect it. I would never look down upon someone who chose to terminate an ectopic tubal pregnancy. I understand clearly the reasons for doing so. And yes...if the baby is developing in the fallopian tube he/she will not make it to full gestation, so it's not a 'normal' pregnancy. But the baby is alive. And like I said before I cannot in good conscience take that life.
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<-----Jael as Tinkerbell - Halloween 2008
If you don't want people to insult your intelligence; don't make it so obvious that you have none.
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RE: Ectopic Pregnancy - 10/8/2008 4:59:31 PM
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clag4christ
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quote:
I don't think I could stop a beating heart in me even if I thought I might die. I would definitely stay in the hospital if we chose to wait and see though, so that if/when it ruptured, I could have surgery right away.
That's a good idea...I think I might do the same thing in that type of situation.
_____________________________
<-----Jael as Tinkerbell - Halloween 2008
If you don't want people to insult your intelligence; don't make it so obvious that you have none.
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RE: Ectopic Pregnancy - 10/8/2008 5:03:26 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: clag4christ
I'm sorry your wife had to endure that. But she survived! What a blessing. Did she not know she was pregnant at the time?
Yes, she knew she was pregnant. I don't see why that makes any difference. We didn't expect to encounter all the medical complications possible. She only knew it was tubal after the rupture and after a lot of blood loss.
I can't imagine her intentionally allowing the rupture to occur if she had known in advance. What a thoroughly cruel thing to have done to our daughter, me, and our parents!
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RE: Ectopic Pregnancy - 10/8/2008 5:08:56 PM
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clag4christ
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: clag4christ
I'm sorry your wife had to endure that. But she survived! What a blessing. Did she not know she was pregnant at the time?
Yes, she knew she was pregnant. I don't see why that makes any difference. We didn't expect to encounter all the medical complications possible. She only knew it was tubal after the rupture and after a lot of blood loss.
I can't imagine her intentionally allowing the rupture to occur if she had known in advance. What a thoroughly cruel thing to have done to our daughter, me, and our parents!
I was just curious if she knew she was pregnant or not. Nothing implied by it. Well...I of course will have to disagree that it would be "thoroughly cruel" to allow the rupture, since that is what I would do myself. I've known with all three of my pregnancies (currently expecting #3) that I was pregnant within a day or two of my cycle not happening. I've had ultrasounds (and will with this one) no later than 7-ish weeks so if this baby were an ectopic pregnancy I would just likely enter the hospital and wait for the baby to either be reabsorbed or for the tube to burst and be rushed into surgery.
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<-----Jael as Tinkerbell - Halloween 2008
If you don't want people to insult your intelligence; don't make it so obvious that you have none.
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RE: Ectopic Pregnancy - 10/8/2008 5:13:12 PM
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phosadaud
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I think what Jimbo is saying is that he would never want to relive with his wife what you would do. Which is understandable. That's what makes this such a horrible issue. There really is no positive outcome or way to handle it that won't hurt.
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~Kristin~
Resume Quotations: "Reason for leaving last job: The owner gave new meaning to the word 'paranoia.' I prefer to elaborate privately."
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RE: Ectopic Pregnancy - 10/8/2008 5:20:07 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: clag4christ
I was just curious if she knew she was pregnant or not. Nothing implied by it. Well...I of course will have to disagree that it would be "thoroughly cruel" to allow the rupture...
You may disagree with the decision we would have made but you cannot disagree that it would have been horribly cruel to me if she had intentionally chosen to risk her life when there was no question that the baby would die - and the longer it developed the more likely the baby would have suffered. The waiting on the outcome was horrible enough but adding intentional waiting until rupture would have been far worse.
I'd have to wonder about a man that willingly went along with a decision like. If he were my son-in-law, it would be unlikely that I'd ever trust him again.
BTW, had there been a problem with her other tube, for whatever reason, our youngest son would never have been born...
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RE: Ectopic Pregnancy - 10/8/2008 5:21:56 PM
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clag4christ
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quote:
I'd have to wonder about a man that willingly went along with a decision like. If he were my son-in-law, it would be unlikely that I'd ever trust him again.
I'm not sure why you're drawing that conclusion...or the impilcation that I think you're making about, say my husband...
quote:
You may disagree with the decision we would have made but you cannot disagree that it would have been horribly cruel to me if she had intentionally chosen to risk her life when there was no question that the baby would die - and the longer it developed the more likely the baby would have suffered. The waiting on the outcome was horrible enough but adding intentional waiting until rupture would have been far worse.
I've already said I don't disagree with *your* decision. I understand why people choose to end tubal pregnancies. But like I said before, to me it's not "thoroughly or horribly cruel" to risk my life to not have to have that baby's life on *my* conscience. I'm not disagreeing with anyone who ends a tubal pregnancy. I just know that I could not end that heartbeat knowingly...
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<-----Jael as Tinkerbell - Halloween 2008
If you don't want people to insult your intelligence; don't make it so obvious that you have none.
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RE: Ectopic Pregnancy - 10/8/2008 5:23:02 PM
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stellaluna
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1) How long would one have to be in the hospital waiting for a tube to burst?
2) Would insurance even cover that?
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RE: Ectopic Pregnancy - 10/8/2008 5:25:20 PM
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clag4christ
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stellaluna
1) How long would one have to be in the hospital waiting for a tube to burst?
2) Would insurance even cover that?
1.) I don't know.
2.) Not sure...though they might.
_____________________________
<-----Jael as Tinkerbell - Halloween 2008
If you don't want people to insult your intelligence; don't make it so obvious that you have none.
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RE: Ectopic Pregnancy - 10/8/2008 5:27:47 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: clag4christ
quote:
I'd have to wonder about a man that willingly went along with a decision like. If he were my son-in-law, it would be unlikely that I'd ever trust him again.
I'm not sure why you're drawing that conclusion...
As a father of an adult daughter (35), I would wonder about his love for her to agree to let her risk her life.
Perhaps I'm an old foggie, but on major decisions we both have to agree before either will go forward with a decision. Her intentionally risking her life would be such a decision. She would not do it without my agreement to risk her life on a baby that will die, maybe even with suffering because of the point of development.
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RE: Ectopic Pregnancy - 10/8/2008 5:34:27 PM
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clag4christ
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: clag4christ
quote:
I'd have to wonder about a man that willingly went along with a decision like. If he were my son-in-law, it would be unlikely that I'd ever trust him again.
I'm not sure why you're drawing that conclusion...
As a father of an adult daughter (35), I would wonder about his love for her to agree to let her risk her life.
Perhaps I'm an old foggie, but on major decisions we both have to agree before either will go forward with a decision. Her intentionally risking her life would be such a decision. She would not do it without my agreement to risk her life on a baby that will die, maybe even with suffering because of the point of development.
Would you doubt his love for her if they were called to be missionaries in a place where martyrdom were almost a certainty?
My husband is on board with my decision about ectopic pregnancies. We see eye to eye on everything. The baby would suffer through a termination as well...
_____________________________
<-----Jael as Tinkerbell - Halloween 2008
If you don't want people to insult your intelligence; don't make it so obvious that you have none.
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RE: Ectopic Pregnancy - 10/8/2008 5:40:03 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: clag4christ
Would you doubt his love for her if they were called to be missionaries in a place where martyrdom were almost a certainty?
No. That isn't even remotely similar. God doesn't call you to allow babies to die a certain death in your fallopian tubes while you risk your own in the bargain for the spread of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
quote:
My husband is on board with my decision about ectopic pregnancies. We see eye to eye on everything. The baby would suffer through a termination as well...
Like I said, I'd wonder about a man like that... not the woman so much, but certainly the man.
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RE: Ectopic Pregnancy - 10/8/2008 5:43:11 PM
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clag4christ
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
My husband is on board with my decision about ectopic pregnancies. We see eye to eye on everything. The baby would suffer through a termination as well...
Like I said, I'd wonder about a man like that... not the woman so much, but certainly the man.
That is offensive and disgusting and a personal attack upon the very high and noble character of my husband. There is no need for personal attacks. Especially since I've already stated many times that I don't disagree with you, your wife, or anyone who chooses to end a tubal pregnancy. It's just not going to be either my or my husband's decision.
_____________________________
<-----Jael as Tinkerbell - Halloween 2008
If you don't want people to insult your intelligence; don't make it so obvious that you have none.
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RE: Ectopic Pregnancy - 10/8/2008 5:46:29 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: clag4christ
That is offensive and disgusting and a personal attack upon the very high and noble character of my husband. There is no need for personal attacks. Especially since I've already stated many times that I don't disagree with you, your wife, or anyone who chooses to end a tubal pregnancy. It's just not going to be either my or my husband's decision.
I apologize for offending you. And I would have to know the man to make a persoanl attack. BESIDES, I did not say what I'd think about him. You're the one that took it to the level of disgusting.
I was simply speaking honestly as a father and a husband that's been there.
Have you discussed any of this with your father? (I know you're an adult, just wondering his take on it.)
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RE: Ectopic Pregnancy - 10/8/2008 5:54:12 PM
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clag4christ
Posts: 2909
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quote:
Have you discussed any of this with your father? (I know you're an adult, just wondering his take on it.)
No. I have left and cleft (over 9 years ago). My father is not involved in my marital relationship nor the decisions we make within it.
And just for the record...I've not been trying to convice anyone to come over to my opinion regarding this matter (though I thought that quite clear). I have simply been stating my opinion and what my husband and I would do were we faced with that heart rending situation.
_____________________________
<-----Jael as Tinkerbell - Halloween 2008
If you don't want people to insult your intelligence; don't make it so obvious that you have none.
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RE: Ectopic Pregnancy - 10/8/2008 5:58:51 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: clag4christ
quote:
Have you discussed any of this with your father? (I know you're an adult, just wondering his take on it.)
No. I have left and cleft (over 9 years ago). My father is not involved in my marital relationship nor the decisions we make within it.
No offense intended. I've been married 36 years to the bride of my youth but I still value my Dad's advice and insight. I wasn't bestowed with instant wisdom when I clove and left.
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RE: Ectopic Pregnancy - 10/8/2008 6:02:45 PM
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MissInnocent
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
You may disagree with the decision we would have made but you cannot disagree that it would have been horribly cruel to me if she had intentionally chosen to risk her life when there was no question that the baby would die - and the longer it developed the more likely the baby would have suffered. The waiting on the outcome was horrible enough but adding intentional waiting until rupture would have been far worse.
I'd have to wonder about a man that willingly went along with a decision like. If he were my son-in-law, it would be unlikely that I'd ever trust him again.
BTW, had there been a problem with her other tube, for whatever reason, our youngest son would never have been born...
With all due respect Jim, had your wife chosen the decision that Clag says she's make you'd have no choice but to go along. You can't FORCE her to have surgery (or take medicine) to end the pregnancy. I mean if we are going to get so riled up over a man not being able to stop a woman from having an abortion if she chooses (for medical purposes or just cause it's inconvient to her) then no way should a man be able to force his wife to undergo an abortion (or any other procedure) even if it would save her life.
I'm inclined to say I'd do what Clag and Donna say they would do in the situations. However I don't fault anyone for ending a tubal pregnancy. However I can say that I would NOT end an ABDOMINAL pregnancy since I know they survive.
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