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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 1/26/2010 11:10:42 AM
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Montana Marv
Posts: 381
Joined: 4/12/2005
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Roy
If a seven is not intact, it is not a seven. Daniel says "seventy sevens", or seventy full groups of sevens. But you say 69 1/2 sevens, plus another 1/2 of a seven. What gives?
In Christ
Montana Marv
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 1/26/2010 12:26:13 PM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 762
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
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Shalom, Montana Marv.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Montana Marv
Roy
If a seven is not intact, it is not a seven. Daniel says "seventy sevens", or seventy full groups of sevens. But you say 69 1/2 sevens, plus another 1/2 of a seven. What gives?
In Christ
Montana Marv
It was SUPPOSED to be a "seven," and it would have been had not the Jews rejected Yeshua` and forced Him to leave them desolate. Now, the "seven" is SPLIT between the first coming and the second coming, the first advent and the second advent.
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
_____________________________
The avatar above is a Venn diagram of the Kingdom from the sky. Yeshua`s Kingdom is in green, both dark green and light green.
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 1/26/2010 12:49:27 PM
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Montana Marv
Posts: 381
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Shalom, Montana Marv.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Montana Marv
Roy
If a seven is not intact, it is not a seven. Daniel says "seventy sevens", or seventy full groups of sevens. But you say 69 1/2 sevens, plus another 1/2 of a seven. What gives?
In Christ
Montana Marv
It was SUPPOSED to be a "seven," and it would have been had not the Jews rejected Yeshua` and forced Him to leave them desolate. Now, the "seven" is SPLIT between the first coming and the second coming, the first advent and the second advent.
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
Roy
This is a Prophesy, so it must be 100 percent accurate. Daniel states "seventy sevens" in his prophecy. Making a point saying it was 69 1/2 weeks of Sevens, makes Daniels prophecy invalid or inaccurate. If that is the case, then the rest of Dan 9:24-27 could be considered invalid or inaccurate. Then you have no case in saying that the Messiah life was ended at the 69 1/2 weeks, because that part of the chapter would also be incorrect.
Making the "seventy sevens" invalid, makes the rest of the chapter also invalid.
In Christ
Montana Marv
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 1/26/2010 8:29:13 PM
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Wayfaring Stranger
Posts: 268
Joined: 11/24/2005
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Hi Roy,
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Finally, I believe there’s enough proof to say that Yeshua` was offered as Isra’el’s King for a “ministry” of 3.5 years:
Luke 3:21-23, along with Matt. 3:13-17 and Mark 1:9-11, tell us that Yeshua` was 30 years old when He was baptized by Yochanan in the Yarden, which had to be during the dry season, no later than September. During the rainy season, the Yarden was usually flooded and treacherous not to mention cold. Four Pesach feasts (Passovers) are mentioned in John 2:13-17; 5:1; 6:4; 11:55-12:1; and 13:1 and He was killed during the fourth Pesach. Therefore, His offer was for three-and-a-half years before He was ultimately rejected by crucifixion.
While the whole thing has to be pieced together, the pieces are all there and are available to anyone.
This is why I believe that the 70th week of Dani’el is SPLIT into the 3 ˝ years of Yeshua`s offer of the Kingdom and the 3 ˝ years of the “tribulation” in the book of the Revelation.
In the Messiah’s love,
Roy
When the Messiah comes as King all the wicked are destroyed, Jesus only came as mankind's High Priest. Jesus only took over the preaching of the Kingdom of God from John after John was put into prison. Matthew and Mark skip from the end of the 40 day fast to when John is in prison. In the Gospel of John one passover is past and John is still not in prison.
Joh:3:24: For John was not yet cast into prison.
Jesus was in Jerusalem for the Passover in John 2 and He does not attend the one in John 6 because of death threats and He attends the next one John covers. The reference to the feast of the Jews in John 5 must be a different feast than passover. The text does not point to a full year passing in just that one chapter.
If you take that Jesus was about 30 when He was baptized and that is shown to be about 3 yrs and 1 month then once you add in John's time (also called when he was about 30) the 6 months that he was older than Jesus then the start of the 70 th week begins with this verse. That is a full 3 1/2 years and it dioesn't matter when John was put into prison because Jesus assumed his duties as soon as he could no longer fulfill them.
Joh:1:6:
There was a man sent from God,
whose name was John.
Joh:1:7:
The same came for a witness,
to bear witness of the Light,
that all men through him might believe.
Your suggestion of baptism no later than Sept doesn't mesh with the times given in these verses. Joh:1:37 - Joh:2:13: . The times given are only a few days here and there, even taking a full week for the wedding 2 weeks plus the traveling time to Jerusalem does not even come close to 6 months.
Later
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 1/26/2010 11:00:38 PM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 762
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: online
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Shalom, Montana Marv.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Montana Marv
Roy
This is a Prophesy, so it must be 100 percent accurate. Daniel states "seventy sevens" in his prophecy. Making a point saying it was 69 1/2 weeks of Sevens, makes Daniels prophecy invalid or inaccurate. If that is the case, then the rest of Dan 9:24-27 could be considered invalid or inaccurate. Then you have no case in saying that the Messiah life was ended at the 69 1/2 weeks, because that part of the chapter would also be incorrect.
Making the "seventy sevens" invalid, makes the rest of the chapter also invalid.
In Christ
Montana Marv
IN YOUR OPINION! Let's be honest here: These "sevens" are NOT LABELS!!! They are NUMBERS! There is nothing in the text to necessitate that they remain as whole sevens. To the contrary, they are used purely for their numeric value.
Get over the inflexability! A split between sevens is no better than a split within a seven! Allow me to give it as simply as I may:
Letting "t" stand for "time," the solution set is simply {t: (0 x 7) < t <= (69.5 x 7)} U {t: (69.5 x 7) < t <= (70 x 7)}.
That is no better nor worse than your solution set of {t: (0 x 7) < t <= (69.0 x 7)} U {t: (69.0 x 7) < t <= (70 x 7)}.
Still in the Messiah's love,
Roy
< Message edited by Retrobyter -- 1/26/2010 11:16:34 PM >
_____________________________
The avatar above is a Venn diagram of the Kingdom from the sky. Yeshua`s Kingdom is in green, both dark green and light green.
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 1/26/2010 11:03:30 PM
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ta_mosquito
Posts: 11825
Joined: 3/31/2005
From: from MN, now in Ontario :D
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quote:
So, DON'T GET COCKY!!! Really!
Please tone down your posts.
Thanks!
Tricia
Forums Moderator
Please do not reply to this message within the forums or chat.
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 1/26/2010 11:24:12 PM
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navyblueret
Posts: 932
Joined: 11/29/2008
From: S/W Nebraska
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Roy, Shalom. This has probably been discussed, but is still bothering me:
Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
We all seem to agree that 69 of the 70 weeks (Sevens) have been utilized, so I must ask, based on the two factors above I have in Bold:
If 3.5 years of the last seven are utilized, how do we manage to seal up the vision, and also how do we manage to build a Most Holy before the Abomination, which then has 3.5 years for the Beast to reign, which takes up the complete 3.5, and leaves no time factor for the 'Big build-up' to the Abomination?? It seems to my mind that we still need the first 3.5 years to allow the stage to be set, and the Beast to Overtly and wonderfully come into complete control of the whole world.
IMO, we almost have to have the full Seven, to be able for the Beast to take control, and 'of course,' I believe we will already have departed for Paradisical Rapturous Ecstasy of living beyond, and elsewhere, like Heaven/Paradise, and will be watching the events with an attitude of 'why didn't I think of that,' attitude.
In Messiah. Arley.
_____________________________
In the name of 'THE' Mashiach, Man the wall, set the watch, sound the Shofar. Our redemption draws nigh.
Messiah, my Captain, and Helmsman.
(Joh 14:6 KJV) ... I am the way, the truth, and the life: ...
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 1/26/2010 11:47:56 PM
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Wayfaring Stranger
Posts: 268
Joined: 11/24/2005
Status: offline
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Hi Arley,
quote:
ORIGINAL: navyblueret
Roy, Shalom. This has probably been discussed, but is still bothering me:
Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
We all seem to agree that 69 of the 70 weeks (Sevens) have been utilized, so I must ask, based on the two factors above I have in Bold:
If 3.5 years of the last seven are utilized, how do we manage to seal up the vision, and also how do we manage to build a Most Holy before the Abomination, which then has 3.5 years for the Beast to reign, which takes up the complete 3.5, and leaves no time factor for the 'Big build-up' to the Abomination?? It seems to my mind that we still need the first 3.5 years to allow the stage to be set, and the Beast to Overtly and wonderfully come into complete control of the whole world.
IMO, we almost have to have the full Seven, to be able for the Beast to take control, and 'of course,' I believe we will already have departed for Paradisical Rapturous Ecstasy of living beyond, and elsewhere, like Heaven/Paradise, and will be watching the events with an attitude of 'why didn't I think of that,' attitude.
In Messiah. Arley.
Isn't this the anointing that is being referenced? There is one more event that could qualify, Jesus could not baptize with the Holy Spirit before the cross because He was not yet glorified. On the morning of His resurrection He told Mary M. not to embrace Him because He was not yet glorified. He could be touched that evening so He must have been glorified sometime during that day.
Joh:12:3: Then took Mary a pound of ointment of spikenard, very costly, and anointed the feet of Jesus, and wiped his feet with her hair: and the house was filled with the odour of the ointment.
Joh:12:4: Then saith one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, which should betray him,
Joh:12:5: Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the poor?
Joh:12:6: This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein.
Joh:12:7: Then said Jesus, Let her alone: against the day of my burying hath she kept this.
Joh:12:8: For the poor always ye have with you; but me ye have not always.
Joh:7:39: (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
Joh:20:17: Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 1/27/2010 1:43:38 AM
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tsnody2001
Posts: 1019
Joined: 4/29/2008
From: Terre Haute, IN
Status: offline
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Wayfaring Stranger,
quote:
He could be touched that evening so He must have been glorified sometime during that day.
I'm not sure that you have any basis on which to say that. There is nothing in the Scriptures that indicates He ascended into Heaven and then came back and then ascended again. That is speculation. What I think Jesus was essentially telling Mary in John 20 was not to cling onto Him because He was going to be leaving them to go to the Father. There was no doubt in her that Jesus had risen once she saw Him; it was different for Thomas. He doubted Jesus' resurrection and so Jesus told him to touch Him where He has been wounded. That is far different than clinging onto Him. Also, the word used to denote "cling" in the John 20:17 passage is ἅπτομαι, haptomai, hap'-tom-ahee, and means "to attach oneself to".
_____________________________
Until He Returns (Rev. 2:17),
Travis
During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act. ~George Orwell
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 1/27/2010 8:22:41 AM
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Wayfaring Stranger
Posts: 268
Joined: 11/24/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tsnody2001
Wayfaring Stranger,
quote:
He could be touched that evening so He must have been glorified sometime during that day.
I'm not sure that you have any basis on which to say that. There is nothing in the Scriptures that indicates He ascended into Heaven and then came back and then ascended again. That is speculation. What I think Jesus was essentially telling Mary in John 20 was not to cling onto Him because He was going to be leaving them to go to the Father. There was no doubt in her that Jesus had risen once she saw Him; it was different for Thomas. He doubted Jesus' resurrection and so Jesus told him to touch Him where He has been wounded. That is far different than clinging onto Him. Also, the word used to denote "cling" in the John 20:17 passage is ἅπτομαι, haptomai, hap'-tom-ahee, and means "to attach oneself to".
Then why would He use the word 'touch'? The Disciples that evening were not given that same instruction so if you want to believe nobody touched Him in those 40 days go for it, I don't think Scripture supports that view
to fasten one's self to, adhere to, cling to
1. to touch
2. of carnal intercourse with a women or cohabitation
3. of levitical practice of having no fellowship with heathen practices. Things not to be touched appear to be both women and certain kinds of food, so celibacy and abstinence of certain kinds of food and drink are recommended.
4. to touch, assail anyone
< Message edited by Wayfaring Stranger -- 1/27/2010 8:35:09 AM >
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 1/27/2010 9:25:17 AM
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Montana Marv
Posts: 381
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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Roy
Daniel mentions "seventy sevens", the sevens being broken down into three segments: 7-sevens, 62-sevens, 1-seven. All are whole sevens.
You seem to be mathematical, being a programmer.
Daniels version of one seven is this. One Seven = [3.5y+3.5y]T; T being time
Your version is: [3.5y]T plus [3.5y]t equals the sum of seven. T- being time and t- being another time.
The two are different mathematically and thus are totally different.
You have broken down the "seven" into two separate components making the two the sum of seven.
Daniel has kept the two together making them one seven.
It is much easier to take scripture as it is, and believe what the Prophet said.
So by Daniels own words the "seven" is "one seven", not two components separated by time totaling seven. The only conclusion that can be made is that this last "seven" is a continuation of the first 69- sevens, and therefore the seventy weeks of Daniel are now complete. OR there is a future full "seven" in the future. And we know that the "seventy sevens" has not been completed because Daniels People (Israel) and Daniels holy city (Jerusalem) have not completed their decrees: 1. to finish transgression, 2. To put an end to sin, 3. To atone for wickedness, 4. To bring in everlasting righteousness, 5. To seal up visions and prophecy, 6. To anoint the most holy. Now this is a Prophecy about Daniels People and Daniels holy city::: Nobody Else.
I believe you should go back to being a Pre-triber and a 7 year end times believer. For they make a lot more sense. The scriptures have not changed. Only those of us (forum posters of prophecy and end times) who try to interpret them differently.
In Christ
Montana Marv
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 1/27/2010 3:30:44 PM
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navyblueret
Posts: 932
Joined: 11/29/2008
From: S/W Nebraska
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tsnody2001
Wayfaring Stranger,
quote:
He could be touched that evening so He must have been glorified sometime during that day.
I'm not sure that you have any basis on which to say that. There is nothing in the Scriptures that indicates He ascended into Heaven and then came back and then ascended again. That is speculation. What I think Jesus was essentially telling Mary in John 20 was not to cling onto Him because He was going to be leaving them to go to the Father. There was no doubt in her that Jesus had risen once she saw Him; it was different for Thomas. He doubted Jesus' resurrection and so Jesus told him to touch Him where He has been wounded. That is far different than clinging onto Him. Also, the word used to denote "cling" in the John 20:17 passage is ἅđôďěáé, haptomai, hap'-tom-ahee, and means "to attach oneself to".
WS, Shalom. What you say is accurate, but when considering all the below verses, certain things, not mentioned, must have taken place.
My thoughts:
There were a bunch of 'dead people' walking around Jerusalem, who rose from their graves, 'When' he (Jesus) 'arose.' Jesus didn't keep them around for 40 days, so might just have taken them with him when He arose to the Father??
Jesus arose, in accordance and format of the 'Wave Offering,' completed in the morning of the First day of the week, after Sabbath, after Passover. He had to present/wave the Saints who had resurrected, before the Father, probably at the Throne of God.
The Apostles were not the first to see Jesus capable of mortal things, like eating and drinking. The two on the Road to Emmaus had that privilege.
Please ponder the parts I highlighted, and colored, below, and see if 'reason' doesn't indicate the happening of those things offered without specific mention in the Bible.
Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. Mat 28:9 And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.
Mat 28:10 Then said Jesus unto them, Be not afraid: go tell my brethren that they go into Galilee, and there shall they see me.
Mar 16:14 Afterward, he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.
Luk 24:28 And they drew nigh unto the village, whither they went: and he made as though he would have gone further.
Luk 24:29 But they constrained him, saying, Abide with us: for it is toward evening, and the day is far spent. And he went in to tarry with them.
Luk 24:30 And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them.
Luk 24:31 And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.
In Messiah. Arley
_____________________________
In the name of 'THE' Mashiach, Man the wall, set the watch, sound the Shofar. Our redemption draws nigh.
Messiah, my Captain, and Helmsman.
(Joh 14:6 KJV) ... I am the way, the truth, and the life: ...
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 1/27/2010 5:54:27 PM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 762
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: online
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Shalom, Arley.
quote:
ORIGINAL: navyblueret
Roy, Shalom. This has probably been discussed, but is still bothering me:
Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
We all seem to agree that 69 of the 70 weeks (Sevens) have been utilized, so I must ask, based on the two factors above I have in Bold:
If 3.5 years of the last seven are utilized, how do we manage to seal up the vision, and also how do we manage to build a Most Holy before the Abomination, which then has 3.5 years for the Beast to reign, which takes up the complete 3.5, and leaves no time factor for the 'Big build-up' to the Abomination?? It seems to my mind that we still need the first 3.5 years to allow the stage to be set, and the Beast to Overtly and wonderfully come into complete control of the whole world.
IMO, we almost have to have the full Seven, to be able for the Beast to take control, and 'of course,' I believe we will already have departed for Paradisical Rapturous Ecstasy of living beyond, and elsewhere, like Heaven/Paradise, and will be watching the events with an attitude of 'why didn't I think of that,' attitude.
In Messiah. Arley.
The answer is simple, my brother. The last thing involved in the final 3.5 years will be the return of Yeshua` haMashiach. One of His first tasks at being installed as God's Representative as King will be the building and inaugerating of a New Temple. I believe this will be the last thing still within the 70 "sevens." If it overlaps with the Millennium, so what? The phrase "and to seal up" is the Hebrew word "v'lachTom" meaning literally "and to close-up" and is the verb for both the vision and the prophecy. The word "chaaTam" has also been translated in the KJV as "make-an-end." These 70 "sevens" in their entirety puts the finishing touches on both the vision (that Dani'el was seeing) and the prophecy (shared by Gavri'el).
It is certainly NOT anything regarding the Beast! Whether the Jews build a Temple prior to the one Yeshua` establishes, the Beast will NOT be allowed to desecrate Yeshua`s Temple!
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
_____________________________
The avatar above is a Venn diagram of the Kingdom from the sky. Yeshua`s Kingdom is in green, both dark green and light green.
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 1/27/2010 10:12:41 PM
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Wayfaring Stranger
Posts: 268
Joined: 11/24/2005
Status: offline
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Hi Arley,
quote:
ORIGINAL: navyblueret
My thoughts:
There were a bunch of 'dead people' walking around Jerusalem, who rose from their graves, 'When' he (Jesus) 'arose.' Jesus didn't keep them around for 40 days, so might just have taken them with him when He arose to the Father??
quote:
ORIGINAL: navyblueret
Jesus arose, in accordance and format of the 'Wave Offering,' completed in the morning of the First day of the week, after Sabbath, after Passover. He had to present/wave the Saints who had resurrected, before the Father, probably at the Throne of God.
I agree, I also think it was that very day that all who were resurrected went to the Throne of God. I also believe the OT Saints are the 24 elders that are observed around the Throne in Revelation.
quote:
ORIGINAL: navyblueret
The Apostles were not the first to see Jesus capable of mortal things, like eating and drinking. The two on the Road to Emmaus had that privilege.
Okay, you have me, I don't know what verse mentions that.
quote:
ORIGINAL: navyblueret
Please ponder the parts I highlighted, and colored, below, and see if 'reason' doesn't indicate the happening of those things offered without specific mention in the Bible.
Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
Vs 19 says that they received the Holy Spirit that very night.
quote:
ORIGINAL: navyblueret
Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. Mat 28:9 And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.
Mat 28:10 Then said Jesus unto them, Be not afraid: go tell my brethren that they go into Galilee, and there shall they see me.
Are you sure this is the same day, the verse below tells the disciples to head of Galilee, that is about 40 miles away from Jerusalem, I doubt people traveled that far in just a few hours.
M't:28:7:
And go quickly,
and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead;
and, behold,
he goeth before you into Galilee;
there shall ye see him:
lo,
I have told you.
quote:
ORIGINAL: navyblueret
Mar 16:14 Afterward, he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.
Perhaps this verse will add more people to the ones who learned about His resurrection. There were more people than the Apostles around the cross. The ones that left the tomb told the others and it was two of them who saw Jesus sometime later that day. If they were allowed to touch Him them He had ascenned to God and had returned.
M'r:16:10: And she went and told them that had been with him, as they mourned and wept.
M'r:16:12: After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.
M'r:16:13: And they went and told it unto the residue: neither believed they them.
quote:
ORIGINAL: navyblueret
Luk 24:28 And they drew nigh unto the village, whither they went: and he made as though he would have gone further.
Luk 24:29 But they constrained him, saying, Abide with us: for it is toward evening, and the day is far spent. And he went in to tarry with them.
Luk 24:30 And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them.
Luk 24:31 And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.
These next verses would seem to be when He fist came to the 11 Apostles, the evening of the day He was resurrected.
Lu:24:33: And they rose up the same hour, and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven gathered together, and them that were with them,
Lu:24:34: Saying, The Lord is risen indeed, and hath appeared to Simon.
Lu:24:35: And they told what things were done in the way, and how he was known of them in breaking of bread.
Lu:24:36: And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
Wouldn't those 40 days have been part of the 2nd half of the 70th week?
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 1/28/2010 1:35:33 AM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 762
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: online
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Shalom, Montana Marv.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Montana Marv
Roy
Daniel mentions "seventy sevens", the sevens being broken down into three segments: 7-sevens, 62-sevens, 1-seven. All are whole sevens.
You seem to be mathematical, being a programmer.
That is correct. What's worse is that I am an OLD SCHOOL programmer, familiar with working in base-2 (binary), base-8 (octal), and base-16 (hexadecimal) when mathematics were ESSENTIAL. Compound that with the fact that I'm a graduate of a university with a computer engineering degree, and ... well ... mathematics has been foundational to my education. I've taught math in a high school, I've studied math through calculus III and differential equations, and I was a mathematics tutor at a community college. I even took trigonometry as an independent study course. I also had excellent mathematics, physics, engineering, and chemistry teachers down through the years; if I said I didn't understand something to one of them, they'd DOUBLE (sometimes TRIPLE) the work load to help me see how the mathematics worked! LOL! THOSE were the "good ol' days!" Ha! Ha!
quote:
ORIGINAL: Montana Marv
Daniels version of one seven is this. One Seven = [3.5y+3.5y]T; T being time
Your version is: [3.5y]T plus [3.5y]t equals the sum of seven. T- being time and t- being another time.
The two are different mathematically and thus are totally different.
You have broken down the "seven" into two separate components making the two the sum of seven.
Daniel has kept the two together making them one seven.
Not necessarily so. I can understand your point of view (although the math is somewhat shaky), but that's not at all what I mean. What I said was,
quote:
Letting "t" stand for "time," the solution set is simply {t: (0 x 7) < t <= (69.5 x 7)} U {t: (69.5 x 7) < t <= (70 x 7)}.
That is no better nor worse than your solution set of {t: (0 x 7) < t <= (69.0 x 7)} U {t: (69.0 x 7) < t <= (70 x 7)}.
Perhaps the notation was not clear: What I meant was that having one section from 0 sevens to 69 sevens and then another section from 69 sevens to 70 sevens IS NO DIFFERENT MATHEMATICALLY than having one section from 0 sevens to 69 1/2 sevens and then another section from 69 1/2 sevens to 70 sevens. You have 3.5 being multiplied by some "y" (the "sevens" perhaps?) and then multiplied AGAIN by some other number "T" or "t." I don't understand what these other numbers could be.
Yes, I have broken down the last "seven" into two halves which indeed DO add up to the sum of "seven." And, that would be true no matter WHEN one breaks that last "seven" in half! You said, "7-sevens, 62-sevens, 1-seven. All are whole sevens." Let's look at this in outline form:
A. 7-sevens
B. 62-sevens
C. 1-seven
Now, add the information in verse 27, namely:
Dan 9:27
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
KJV
Now, you have an addition to the above outline form:
A. 7-sevens
B. 62-sevens
C. 1-seven
..1. 1st half of the 1-seven
..2. 2nd half of the 1-seven
Some insist on dividing between B and C. I believe we should be dividing between C.1 and C.2. Does that make it wrong biblically? NOT AT ALL! If one tries to hold C together as a solid unit of time called a "week" or a "seven," then that one is calling the "week" or the "seven" a LABEL!!! It's NOT! It's a NUMBER!!! One may use it for calculations, but there is no limit to the amount of numbers between 69 and 70! NOTHING in Scripture DEMANDS that these numbers remain whole numbers or integers! To the contrary, by dividing an odd number in half (dividing an odd number by 2, an even number), the SCRIPTURES THEMSELVES ... GABRIEL HIMSELF ... introduced fractions!
'In the midst of the week (seven), THE MESSIAH shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease (because GOD is no longer accepting animal sacrifices with the COMPLETE sacrifice of His Son's body), and for the spreading out of abominations (more and more Jews got on board with the Pharisees), THE MESSIAH shall make it desolate, even until the END (until they can say, "Baruwk haba' b'shem YHVH" or "We welcome the One who comes on the authority of YHVH")!'
THAT'S where the continuity of the 70 x 7 years breaks! Don't think of days, months, and years in some sort of discrete way! They are merely points on an infinite line, which consists of an infinite number of such points! Time is a continuum and is NOT discrete! It's not discrete like binary numbers: 0 or 1, no or yes, off or on; it's continuous like the wail of a fire engine's siren, sliding up and down through every frequency and every note possible, including those that do not appear on a musical staff!
quote:
ORIGINAL: Montana Marv
It is much easier to take scripture as it is, and believe what the Prophet said.
So by Daniels own words the "seven" is "one seven", not two components separated by time totaling seven. The only conclusion that can be made is that this last "seven" is a continuation of the first 69- sevens, and therefore the seventy weeks of Daniel are now complete. OR there is a future full "seven" in the future. And we know that the "seventy sevens" has not been completed because Daniels People (Israel) and Daniels holy city (Jerusalem) have not completed their decrees: 1. to finish transgression, 2. To put an end to sin, 3. To atone for wickedness, 4. To bring in everlasting righteousness, 5. To seal up visions and prophecy, 6. To anoint the most holy. Now this is a Prophecy about Daniels People and Daniels holy city::: Nobody Else.
I believe you should go back to being a Pre-triber and a 7 year end times believer. For they make a lot more sense. The scriptures have not changed. Only those of us (forum posters of prophecy and end times) who try to interpret them differently.
In Christ
Montana Marv
I actually agree with BOTH of your statements,
quote:
The only conclusion that can be made is that this last "seven" is a continuation of the first 69- sevens,...
and
quote:
And we know that the "seventy sevens" has not been completed because Daniels People (Israel) and Daniels holy city (Jerusalem) have not completed their decrees: 1. to finish transgression, 2. To put an end to sin, 3. To atone for wickedness, 4. To bring in everlasting righteousness, 5. To seal up visions and prophecy, 6. To anoint the most holy. Now this is a Prophecy about Daniels People and Daniels holy city::: Nobody Else.
That's why I believe that a gap MUST exist somewhere within the 70 "sevens," and therefore, I reject both the preterist position AND the positions that hold to a future intact "seven."
No, unless you can show me by Scriptures that there's no other way to fit those Scriptures together unless I take a Pre-Trib point of view, those days are long past. You have to give me more than you FEEL they should be whole "sevens."
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
_____________________________
The avatar above is a Venn diagram of the Kingdom from the sky. Yeshua`s Kingdom is in green, both dark green and light green.
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 1/28/2010 10:42:13 AM
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Wayfaring Stranger
Posts: 268
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Pardon the interuption.
"one section from 0 sevens to 69 1/2 sevens and then another section from 69 1/2 sevens to 70 sevens. "
If the full 1/2 is used prior to the cross then the verse should be cut like this.
Da:9:27:
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:
and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,
..............................
The next part of the verse should apply to the next 1/2 of the week, if there were abominations that Scripture covers then it would seem that there is no break in the week. The 40 days after the cross still has Jesus teaching and interacting with people. If Stephen and Peter were having visions would that not be part of the 7 years that God gave the Messiah to the people. The ascension and the return is the gap or you can use the length of time given to the Gentiles to spread the Gospel as being a gap, one is slightly longer but the ends are the same event.
"and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, "
This is the reversal of what the 70 weeks determined, the sealing and the resurrection of Israel and the judgment of the Gentiles.
"even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 1/28/2010 10:47:40 AM
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Ntech
Posts: 62
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Retrobyter, you asked the question.
That's why I believe that a gap MUST exist somewhere within the 70 "sevens," and therefore, I reject both the preterist position AND the positions that hold to a future intact "seven."
No, unless you can show me by Scriptures that there's no other way to fit those Scriptures together unless I take a Pre-Trib point of view, those days are long past. You have to give me more than you FEEL they should be whole "sevens."
So let me give you the answer. It starts here in 9-24.
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
The section in bold has an answer. So what is the question? What is the transgression? And I actually found the answer for that in another book. Hosea. Here is the answer. Unfinished business.
Hosea 3
4 For the children of Israel shall abide many days without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an image, and without an ephod, and without teraphim:
Hosea 5
14 For I will be unto Ephraim as a lion, and as a young lion to the house of Judah: I, even I, will tear and go away; I will take away, and none shall rescue him.
15 I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early.
Hosea 6
1 Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.
2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.
The unfinished business is that a long time ago Israel and Judah triggered a top level Leviticus 26 curse. It's still not finished yet. However verse 6-2 there gives the timeframe of the curse. 2 days. Which makes no sense until you refer to the following in 2nd Peter 3-8 and also covered in Psalms 90.
3-8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
Those days are a thousand years long. This curse is 2 thousand years long. Followed by a thousand year "day of Jezreel".
That's why there is a gap of thousands of years between the 69th and the 70th week. Unfinished business.
Now covering the 70th week.
9-27
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
It says he will confirm the covenant for a week. But the week is thousands of years in the future from the 69th week. Also I would point out these 2 verses in Daniel 11.
5 And the king of the south shall be strong, and one of his princes; and he shall be strong above him, and have dominion; his dominion shall be a great dominion.
6 And in the end of years they shall join themselves together; for the king's daughter of the south shall come to the king of the north to make an agreement: but she shall not retain the power of the arm; neither shall he stand, nor his arm: but she shall be given up, and they that brought her, and he that begat her, and he that strengthened her in these times.
That is the agreement being made in verse 9-27. The one to be confirmed for a week.
That would indicate the week is an entire week of 7 years. And verse 6 is quite specific. It happens in the end of years. That would be the 70th week.
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 1/28/2010 10:56:50 AM
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Montana Marv
Posts: 381
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Roy
If you cut an apple (which is considered one, whole or all) into two equal pieces (halved), it is still considered to be one, whole or all until the apple is separated. Once separated from the other half, the apple it is no longer one, whole or all, but two distinct apple halves.
The same is with "one-seven", when halved (3.5y & 3.5Y), it still considered one, whole or all. Only when it becomes separated into two distinct halves (3.5y) and (3.5y) does it cease to be One.
Separation of the whole (one), makes two, not one.
Daniel 9:27 - He will confirm a covenant with many for "one seven".
In Christ
Montana Marv
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 1/28/2010 5:01:48 PM
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tsnody2001
Posts: 1019
Joined: 4/29/2008
From: Terre Haute, IN
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quote:
Separation of the whole (one), makes two, not one.
That is not true. It makes two halves, which is not the same as two. Two halves is still one, not two. LOL
_____________________________
Until He Returns (Rev. 2:17),
Travis
During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act. ~George Orwell
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 1/28/2010 6:38:08 PM
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Montana Marv
Posts: 381
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tsnody2001
quote:
Separation of the whole (one), makes two, not one.
That is not true. It makes two halves, which is not the same as two. Two halves is still one, not two. LOL
You must not have comprehended the example.
The two halves are one only if connected. But once separated they become two pieces. Two halves are still two if not joined. So separation by time makes Daniels "one seven" into two parts, thus it is no longer considered one seven.
In Christ
Montana Marv
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 1/28/2010 6:41:35 PM
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tsnody2001
Posts: 1019
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From: Terre Haute, IN
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But neither is it two sevens.
_____________________________
Until He Returns (Rev. 2:17),
Travis
During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act. ~George Orwell
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 1/28/2010 6:51:18 PM
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Montana Marv
Posts: 381
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tsnody2001
But neither is it two sevens.
It ceases to be one seven when the two 3.5y periods are separated by time.
In Christ
Montana Marv
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 1/28/2010 6:59:45 PM
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tsnody2001
Posts: 1019
Joined: 4/29/2008
From: Terre Haute, IN
Status: offline
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I understand that, but that does not make it two "sevens".
You said, "Separation of the whole (one), makes two, not one."
If you mean two halves, then I agree.
_____________________________
Until He Returns (Rev. 2:17),
Travis
During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act. ~George Orwell
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 1/28/2010 9:50:26 PM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 762
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
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Shalom, Ntech.
I agree with the verses from Hoshea (Hosea), and I can even accept the possibility of (1 "day" [yowm] = 1000 years) as an explanation for the "two-day" gap, although I cringe at such equations being yanked out of context (II Pet. 3:8; Ps. 90:4) for that purpose. (That's just DANGEROUS, theologically speaking!), but to all the rest of that I say, "Hogwash." Again, you make an unfounded statement as though it was a fact:
quote:
That's why there is a gap of thousands of years between the 69th and the 70th week.
What's up with that? You're using verses (specifically Dan. 11:5-6) that have already been fulfilled in the person of Antiochus IV Epiphanes.
Furthermore, I sincerely hope that haYowm Yizre`el (the Day of Jezreel) won't last for a thousand years! READ THE WHOLE RECORD of that day!
Hos 1:1-2:2
1:1 This is the word of Adonai that came to Hoshea the son of Be’eri during the reigns of ‘Uziyah, Yotam, Achaz and Y’chizkiyah, kings of Y’hudah, and during the reign of Yarov‘am the son of Yo’ash, king of Isra’el. 2 Adonai’s opening words in speaking to Hoshea were to instruct Hoshea,
“Go, marry a whore,
and have children with this whore;
for the land is engaged in flagrant whoring,
whoring away from Adonai.”
3 So he went and married Gomer the daughter of Divlayim, and she conceived and bore him a son. 4 Adonai said to him, “Call him Yizre‘el, because in only a short time I will punish the house of Yehu for having shed blood at Yizre‘el; I will put an end to the kingdom of the house of Isra’el. 5 When that day comes, I will break the bow of Isra’el in the Yizre‘el Valley.”
6 She conceived again and bore a daughter. Adonai said to him, “Name her Lo-Ruchamah [unpitied], for I will no longer have pity on the house of Isra’el. By no means will I forgive them. 7 But I will pity the house of Y’hudah; I will save them not by bow, sword, battle, horses or cavalry, but by Adonai their God.”
8 After weaning Lo-Ruchamah, she conceived and bore a son. 9 Adonai said, “Name him Lo-‘Ammi [not-my-people], because you are not my people, and I will not be your [God].
2:1 (1:10) “Nevertheless, the people of Isra’el will number as many as the grains of sand by the sea, which cannot be measured or counted; so that the time will come when, instead of being told, ‘You are not my people,’ it will be said to them, ‘You are the children of the living God.’ 2(1:11) Then the people of Y’hudah and the people of Isra’el will be gathered together; they will appoint for themselves one leader; and they will go up out of the land; for that will be a great day, [the day] of Yizre‘el.
CJB
Because Yizre`el is a valley that runs southeast from Haifa and Har Karmel (Mount Carmel) and then turns southward once it rounds Har Megiddown (Mount of Megiddo) on the west, this is about ADONAI'S RESCUE of Y'hudah (Judah).
This is NOT about the Millennium! This is about Armageddon! Can you imagine the Battle of Har-Megiddown lasting for a THOUSAND YEARS?!! If it's not good for the third day, then maybe it's not a correct interpretation for the first two days, either.
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
_____________________________
The avatar above is a Venn diagram of the Kingdom from the sky. Yeshua`s Kingdom is in green, both dark green and light green.
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 1/28/2010 10:48:48 PM
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Wayfaring Stranger
Posts: 268
Joined: 11/24/2005
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Hi Roy,
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
I agree with the verses from Hoshea (Hosea), and I can even accept the possibility of (1 "day" [yowm] = 1000 years) as an explanation for the "two-day" gap, although I cringe at such equations being yanked out of context (II Pet. 3:8; Ps. 90:4) for that purpose. (That's just DANGEROUS, theologically speaking!), but to all the rest of that I say, "Hogwash." Again, you make an unfounded statement as though it was a fact:
What's up with that? You're using verses (specifically Dan. 11:5-6) that have already been fulfilled in the person of Antiochus IV Epiphanes.
Are you sure the 1,000 years that Peter covers does not apply to events in the future, almost like Peter was giving us a prophecy rather than a history lesson? In the future those verses would apply to the Day of the Lord when speaking only about the wrath of God. It takes a few hours to pour out the vials, in those hours Satan is chained for a 1,000 years. LONG PAUSE. and the the wrath continues until the lake holds all that are to be sent there. In that instance something is called 'a day' but actual time from start to finish (of wrath) is a 1,000 years (plus what is called Satan's little season). The whole time of actual wrath is still within the time we call one day. That is the 1,000 years is equal to one day.
The best reference to one day is in relation to Judgment Day, since there are a lot of people being judged that Day it could last as long as what we now call 1,000 years. That is the one day is equal to a 1,000 years.
Yes Roy, I am going to challenge you again on the person you brought up. If his deeds were before the end of the 70 weeks (before the 69th was complete) then he should be covered in the verses about the little horn that arises after Alex is finished. Between the time the 70 weeks were introduced who was in Jerusalem that would qualify as being the 'stars of heaven'. The best candidate is John the Baptist and the Messiah, Jesus Christ.
Ch:11 can all apply to the iron/clay kingdom. The whole chapter takes place during the time allotted to the Beast, 42 months. Satan and the Beast are the two Kings and human armies would be the main armies until most of them die in a battle against the 2ooM of the 6th trump.
You already allow for a 3 1/2 trib just prior to Christ's return, try fitting every about the iron/clay and 4th beast of Da:7 into that 3 1/2 years. This doesn't touch on how long the events prior to the 5th and 6th trumps take.
It is a time with almost constant war and many people die.
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