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RE: reason for negative views of feminism in the church - 2/23/2010 3:26:05 PM
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WasLostAmFound
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GraceyGirl
quote:
ORIGINAL: NotDoneYet
I suppose I am a feminist.
I work in a mostly male profession, and I remember getting paid LESS than a man for the same job...because "he had a family to support". I remember being told to go home and bake cookies and open the job up for a man.
I did the SAHM thing for awhile...and came to the conclusion that it's not really for me. I LIKE being out in the workforce, I like what I do for a living, I like the challenge. And, yes, I like the salary.
That said...I am also pro-life, and think that women actually have it better now that they can CHOOSE...higher education, a profession, to be a SAHM, etc. There is nothing outside of me that is forcing me into one profession or another...that is, having to stay within the primarily female professions (such as nursing, teaching, child care, etc.), that I am free to choose to do what I do for a living (ship designer for a large shipyard).
I think some men are threatened by strong, intellegent, independent women who have the capacity to earn equal or greater salaries than they do. That's their problem...not mine. If some man wants to condemn me for my choices, then maybe he needs to figure out why he's so insecure...
Oh sister, you make my heart sing! the thing is, some women are threatened by strong, intelligent, independent women.
I am a proud, Christian feminist. I believe that I have the right to equal pay, equal opportunity, and equal RESPONSIBILITY. I'm thankful women like my grandmother paved that way for me.
I'm former military, and I can tell you that women in the military are still regarded as either feminists, lesbians, or tramps. I'm not sure which of those are actually worse, but its disgraceful that in 2010 women are still fighting for the right to be equal with their male counterparts.
I work part time, b/c I choose to. I did the stay at home mom thing for a while - it wasn't for me. It wasn't for me b/c God wired me differently than He did other women! I'm not flawed, or somehow less Godly than SAHM's, nor are they flawed or less Godly than I am. I keep my home nice, with my DH's help, I cook and do laundry - so does he! I however, manage the upkeep on the cars! Change the oil, replace brakes on both vehicles, timing belts, other moderately complex repairs in addition to simple body work. DH HATE doing car stuff and isn't very good at it. I am, so I do it to help our family, and while I'm busy with that, he's entertaining the kids, cleaning my oven, or scrubbing the tub.
Feminism was NEVER about women trumping men at all. It was then, and should be now, about EQUALITY. Equal opportunity; EARNED equal rights. Equality isn't equal results. Equality is equal opportunity, which is what we should all have, whether we're men or women, black or white, young or old.
Gracey...are we twins??? I do the car repairs too...my dh is just not that mechanical. ANd yes, he does laundry and cleans the house (I detest doing both)!
I'd love to work more part-time...to spend more time with the kids, BUT...40 hours a week isn't bad considering the kids are in school.
And yes, I believe also that feminism is about equality!
And the women who have issues with me...well...they need to get over themselves too! I see them all the time, they go to work to catch a man...end of discussion. They were things down to here and with other things just about hanging out, then get ALL upset when the guys talk. Well...honey if you're gonna show your wares, expect the shoppers to compare opinions! And the guys don't think that highly of those young women...I hear the remarks that are made. On the flip side, those same guys will say just about anything in front of me...knowing that I'm NOT looking for a man (thank you, my man works on the first floor of the building), and know that I won't take any of it seriously...I'm old enough and been around enough to know when to take them seriously or not...and if they get too ummm...rude, I don't need to go to a supervisor...I've EARNED their respect...so I tell them to put a sock in it because what they said was rude. They take me seriously!
But...back to the topic at hand...those who feel that feminism is a bunch of angry, hormonally enraged women who are looking to crush any helpless and hapless Y chromosome carrier they can find...well, they need to get a grip!
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RE: reason for negative views of feminism in the church - 2/23/2010 8:07:57 PM
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macokjc
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quote:
I'm former military, and I can tell you that women in the military are still regarded as either feminists, lesbians, or tramps. I'm not sure which of those are actually worse, but its disgraceful that in 2010 women are still fighting for the right to be equal with their male counterparts.
But they are not equal, and they will never be. That's not a bad thing, it's just a different thing. We are not as strong or as physical. You can't make us be something we aren't.
quote:
Feminism was NEVER about women trumping men at all. It was then, and should be now, about EQUALITY. Equal opportunity; EARNED equal rights. Equality isn't equal results. Equality is equal opportunity, which is what we should all have, whether we're men or women, black or white, young or old.
You are very right. However, the problems that I have seen is that woman want equal pay, but some (not all) don't want to do equal work. They don't want to take home work with them. They don't want to work late. They want 12 or more paid weeks of maternity leave. They want to leave at the drop of a hat to take care of sick kids. They don't want to work overtime. I firmly believe that pay should be based on merit, whether you are a man or a woman. However, I think that woman should also be willing to work equally as hard as their male counterparts. I know that singles also have many of the same complaints about working parents - men and women.
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RE: reason for negative views of feminism in the church - 2/23/2010 10:29:01 PM
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WasLostAmFound
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quote:
ORIGINAL: macokjc
quote:
I'm former military, and I can tell you that women in the military are still regarded as either feminists, lesbians, or tramps. I'm not sure which of those are actually worse, but its disgraceful that in 2010 women are still fighting for the right to be equal with their male counterparts.
But they are not equal, and they will never be. That's not a bad thing, it's just a different thing. We are not as strong or as physical. You can't make us be something we aren't.
quote:
Feminism was NEVER about women trumping men at all. It was then, and should be now, about EQUALITY. Equal opportunity; EARNED equal rights. Equality isn't equal results. Equality is equal opportunity, which is what we should all have, whether we're men or women, black or white, young or old.
You are very right. However, the problems that I have seen is that woman want equal pay, but some (not all) don't want to do equal work. They don't want to take home work with them. They don't want to work late. They want 12 or more paid weeks of maternity leave. They want to leave at the drop of a hat to take care of sick kids. They don't want to work overtime. I firmly believe that pay should be based on merit, whether you are a man or a woman. However, I think that woman should also be willing to work equally as hard as their male counterparts. I know that singles also have many of the same complaints about working parents - men and women.
I agree...to a point. I believe that there should be the opportunity for parental leave...BOTH parents!
However, I don't believe merit has anything to do with working overtime...maybe I don't have to work OT because I can keep my projects on time without putting in the extra hours...
Single people can fuss...however, I know plenty of singles (male and female) that couldn't be on time for work if their lives depended on it, who take off more time than most of the parents I know...
And personally, I do work as hard as the guys...and I play just as hard, I drive just as fast and I shoot just as straight.
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RE: reason for negative views of feminism in the church - 2/23/2010 11:04:28 PM
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GraceyGirl
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quote:
ORIGINAL: macokjc
quote:
I'm former military, and I can tell you that women in the military are still regarded as either feminists, lesbians, or tramps. I'm not sure which of those are actually worse, but its disgraceful that in 2010 women are still fighting for the right to be equal with their male counterparts.
But they are not equal, and they will never be. That's not a bad thing, it's just a different thing. We are not as strong or as physical. You can't make us be something we aren't.
quote:
Feminism was NEVER about women trumping men at all. It was then, and should be now, about EQUALITY. Equal opportunity; EARNED equal rights. Equality isn't equal results. Equality is equal opportunity, which is what we should all have, whether we're men or women, black or white, young or old.
You are very right. However, the problems that I have seen is that woman want equal pay, but some (not all) don't want to do equal work. They don't want to take home work with them. They don't want to work late. They want 12 or more paid weeks of maternity leave. They want to leave at the drop of a hat to take care of sick kids. They don't want to work overtime. I firmly believe that pay should be based on merit, whether you are a man or a woman. However, I think that woman should also be willing to work equally as hard as their male counterparts. I know that singles also have many of the same complaints about working parents - men and women.
Speak for yourself about the strength and physical requirements, b/c I assure you, there were a fair number of men in several of my units that I could outrun, out press, and out carry on any given PFT. Men take their strength for granted a lot of times, and they "assume" they'll always be strong b/c. . .well, you said it so well - that women just aren't as strong. When they go soft and some of them even START that way, and a woman works out and conditions and disciplines herself - sister, we can be as strong as some of the men. Not ALL of them, but some of them. I NEVER required assistance to carry my required loads, and being SAR I carried the same weight and then some of EVERY one of the 31 men I served with.
Speaking to the equality issue, you're talking about a couple of different things in your paragraph that really have nothing to do with one another. Equal pay isn't about whether or not someone takes work home, works overtime, or whatever. Pay scales are not based on merit, until you begin getting into bonuses. Pay scales are based on the job requirements, and they absolutely SHOULD be equal.
I don't take work home - mostly b/c I have good time management. But in the end, I don't take work home with me b/c when I leave my regular job, I have another one to go. The job of being wife and mother. My boundaries are very clear, and I apply biblical principles to my work environment in the sense that I use integrity with my time, and I do the work that needs to be done there. that way, when I leave, i am free to be mother to my children, and wife to my husband. If OT is needed, I work it. Otherwise, again, I plan accordingly.
Most working mothers DON'T want to leave at the "drop of a hat" to take care of sick children b/c most mothers hate it when their kids are sick. But sadly, society still expects women to fulfill this role of caretaker, even when they work outside the home. Lots of husbands have no problem with the little wifey getting in hot water with her boss for taking yet another personal day when Junior is sick, but don't expect them to take their turn with the sick child. It just isn't expected in the world we live in. Our kids are a little older these days, but if we have a "sick" emergency, we take turns. Period. I won't negotiate with my hubby on this end. Most of the time, we can get a friend or family member to pick up the sick kid from school and help us decide in absentee whether or not we need to come home. Lots of times kid gets Motrin, the couch and remote, and we'll deal with it when we get home. Emergencies happen - but they happen to singles too.
And I agree wholeheartedly with the other poster about SOME singles taking more time off, being less responsible than working parents. I see it every day.
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RE: reason for negative views of feminism in the church - 2/24/2010 9:27:42 AM
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anne-girl
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quote:
I agree...to a point. I believe that there should be the opportunity for parental leave...BOTH parents!
Are there not widespread opportunities for parental leave in the US? Here (in Canada), parents of either gender can get it. The only difference is that women get a full year and men get slightly less than a year, because the first 17 weeks are maternity leave (ie for recovery from birth); adopting parents can't get mat leave either. EI covers a certain amount, and some employers add a top-up, but that can vary (mine offers a top-up of close to 100% of my salary; many offer nothing). In some provinces, both parents can get the full year, and in others they have to split it.
quote:
However, I don't believe merit has anything to do with working overtime...maybe I don't have to work OT because I can keep my projects on time without putting in the extra hours...
Some jobs just require OT--not necessarily because workers are lazy, but often because something urgent comes up ten minutes before quitting time, or a crazy project lands on your desk that due in two days but requires a week of effort. I've seen parents of either gender with young kids say no to that because they have to pick the kids up at daycare. Bosses are usually cool with that. It might affect your ability to advance but it should never affect your level of pay--unless your office agrees to pay overtime (and few do). But then, parents with young kids will usually not accept a job with a description that states up front that significant overtime is required.
What does affect levels of pay in some statistical reports is how employee categories are grouped together. For example, I've seen reports which grouped all administration staff together--executives in the same category as secretarial and clerical staff. Lower-level admin staff tend more often to be women because it's more flexible re parental leave (ie no onerous training), whereas women don't pursue high-level executive positions as often because of family demands. If you looked at the rates of pay for men and women in that group, it would certainly look like the pay levels were different; however, levels of pay for the level of work would be the same (at least in this case, which is government, where pay levels are dictated by the position level).
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RE: reason for negative views of feminism in the church - 2/24/2010 7:20:13 PM
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WasLostAmFound
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solo_soprano24
I never understood unequal pay.  I doubt I'll ever hear an explanation that makes sense. I know too many females who do the exact same things as their male counterparts, but all the places (that I've been able to look at salaries for) pay females less for the same job. I recall looking at several universities, and NONE paid women and men equally when they had the same title and same responsibilities.
Years ago, I was hired as a draftsman for a certain company. A young man and I were hired at the same time, same experience level, same job title. He made a dollar an hour more than I did because "he had a family to support". Well, I a single parent and had a little girl...that didn't matter one bit...so, i made do then on the majestic sum of 96 dollars a week (after taxes and benefits)...
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RE: reason for negative views of feminism in the church - 2/24/2010 7:34:16 PM
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Consecrated2God
Posts: 5244
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quote:
ORIGINAL: NotDoneYet
quote:
ORIGINAL: solo_soprano24
I never understood unequal pay. I doubt I'll ever hear an explanation that makes sense. I know too many females who do the exact same things as their male counterparts, but all the places (that I've been able to look at salaries for) pay females less for the same job. I recall looking at several universities, and NONE paid women and men equally when they had the same title and same responsibilities.
Years ago, I was hired as a draftsman for a certain company. A young man and I were hired at the same time, same experience level, same job title. He made a dollar an hour more than I did because "he had a family to support". Well, I a single parent and had a little girl...that didn't matter one bit...so, i made do then on the majestic sum of 96 dollars a week (after taxes and benefits)...
It's illegal to discriminate on the basis of gender. It's not illegal to pay more or less because someone has a family to support. A few years ago, I was the one getting paid a dollar an hour more than the other workers because I had a family to support.
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RE: reason for negative views of feminism in the church - 2/24/2010 7:47:37 PM
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WasLostAmFound
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Consecrated2God
quote:
ORIGINAL: NotDoneYet
quote:
ORIGINAL: solo_soprano24
I never understood unequal pay. I doubt I'll ever hear an explanation that makes sense. I know too many females who do the exact same things as their male counterparts, but all the places (that I've been able to look at salaries for) pay females less for the same job. I recall looking at several universities, and NONE paid women and men equally when they had the same title and same responsibilities.
Years ago, I was hired as a draftsman for a certain company. A young man and I were hired at the same time, same experience level, same job title. He made a dollar an hour more than I did because "he had a family to support". Well, I a single parent and had a little girl...that didn't matter one bit...so, i made do then on the majestic sum of 96 dollars a week (after taxes and benefits)...
It's illegal to discriminate on the basis of gender. It's not illegal to pay more or less because someone has a family to support. A few years ago, I was the one getting paid a dollar an hour more than the other workers because I had a family to support.
That was the excuse used...I had a child. I have been paid MUCH less than men in the same job. It wasn't until the lat 80's that the whole equal pay thing started getting some real press...The original incident happened in 1983. Things were much different then...things were said then that now would get a man tossed out on his ear.
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Formerly known as NotDoneYet...but...God had other plans!!!! My new blog... http://retirednavywife.wordpress.com/
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RE: reason for negative views of feminism in the church - 2/24/2010 7:51:05 PM
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Consecrated2God
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Some in my workplace had children, too. I had more than they did, and the boss decided to pay me more per hour because I had so many kids. It's not only men who have that happen.
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RE: reason for negative views of feminism in the church - 2/24/2010 10:13:45 PM
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moon_mouse
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 Ugh! If I found out that my employer did something like that, I'd quit that day! It may be legal, but I find it offensive. IMO, people should be paid for the quality and content of the work they do, not for their life choices outside the workplace. Women have worked very hard to be given equal consideration, and not be discriminated against because they have children or might one day have children. It's sad to think someone might be paid less for the same work because they couldn't (or chose not to) have kids.
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RE: reason for negative views of feminism in the church - 2/25/2010 11:04:44 AM
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Abbreviated
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There was a study that employers gave one income families higher salaries than 2 income families. It was quoted by Larry Burkett before he passed.
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RE: reason for negative views of feminism in the church - 3/6/2010 4:19:59 PM
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InzlKett
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Part of the reasoning behind the negative view toward feminism by the church is some in the movement have put Lesbian and Proabortion issues under its umbrella. In my opinion such issues don't belong there. They have given it a bad rap. Susan B. Anthony a prominent Feminist was apposed to abortion.
Now if Feminism has stayed with such topics as Women in the military and equal pay, then I would have proudly worn the title of Feminist. But I cannot. It has to much stuff I cannot support under its umbrella.
I am a ten year US Navy Veteran. I am proud of my service.
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RE: reason for negative views of feminism in the church - 3/12/2010 5:08:28 PM
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kryssiikins
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I'm hoping everyone reads this with an open mind and doesn't take it the wrong way. The reason its frowned upon is most likely the fact that it causes "trouble" for men. The women of the world aren't focusing on serving the men all day, instead they are out working, and having a life of their own. And it gives women the choice of not wanting marriage or children. so thats why its threatening to the church, again I'm not trying to dishonor the church so please don't be upset.
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RE: reason for negative views of feminism in the church - 3/12/2010 5:10:16 PM
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doinkdom
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bevik
Part of the reasoning behind the negative view toward feminism by the church is some in the movement have put Lesbian and Proabortion issues under its umbrella. In my opinion such issues don't belong there. They have given it a bad rap. Susan B. Anthony a prominent Feminist was apposed to abortion.
Now if Feminism has stayed with such topics as Women in the military and equal pay, then I would have proudly worn the title of Feminist. But I cannot. It has to much stuff I cannot support under its umbrella.
I am a ten year US Navy Veteran. I am proud of my service.
nail.
head.
well said.
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RE: reason for negative views of feminism in the church - 3/14/2010 1:17:03 AM
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HisLamb26
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quote:
nail.
head.
well said.
Funny Connie-
I was going to say the exact same thing about this post:
quote:
The reason its frowned upon is most likely the fact that it causes "trouble" for men. The women of the world aren't focusing on serving the men all day, instead they are out working, and having a life of their own. And it gives women the choice of not wanting marriage or children. so thats why its threatening to the church.
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"Many women who do not dress modestly lead young men astray, corrupt their chastity and spread adultery in society, which increases earthquakes," Hojatoleslam Kazem Sedighi
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RE: reason for negative views of feminism in the church - 3/14/2010 10:00:34 AM
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Sideways
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HisLamb26
Feminism meant males had to get used to their genitalia not automatically according them status and priviledge, both in the world and in their churches. Admittedly not an easy thing to let go of quietly.....
Indeed. Look in the careers folder about a thread wondering why women are outnumbering men in some colleges. Why it's the evils of feminism. Colleges have become to effeminate! Just like how men aren't going to church anymore because there are flowers at the alter and tissues at the end of the aisle. It's to effeminate! They aren't being handed everything anymore, so they back down and sit and blame us.
I've actually been told that the only way to get men to stand up and lead is for women to deliberately do nothing, so that men are forced to take the reigns again. We'll that ain't happening.
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RE: reason for negative views of feminism in the church - 3/14/2010 12:50:41 PM
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WasLostAmFound
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sideways
quote:
ORIGINAL: HisLamb26
Feminism meant males had to get used to their genitalia not automatically according them status and priviledge, both in the world and in their churches. Admittedly not an easy thing to let go of quietly.....
Indeed. Look in the careers folder about a thread wondering why women are outnumbering men in some colleges. Why it's the evils of feminism. Colleges have become to effeminate! Just like how men aren't going to church anymore because there are flowers at the alter and tissues at the end of the aisle. It's to effeminate! They aren't being handed everything anymore, so they back down and sit and blame us.
I've actually been told that the only way to get men to stand up and lead is for women to deliberately do nothing, so that men are forced to take the reigns again. We'll that ain't happening.
I read that thread...but didn't post...because well...I wouldn't have had anything nice to say.
Men have gotten used to being "top dog" because of their Y chromosome....once the women decided to stop sitting back and putting up with it, the men just all decided to sit down and quit. Then they blame us....
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RE: reason for negative views of feminism in the church - 3/14/2010 2:18:07 PM
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Sideways
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But what does modern feminism have to do with the excuses men make for why females are outnumbering them in college and in the church? I understand what you are saying Maggie, about rejecting abortion and a total disregard for males, but I think a lot of men use feminism as an excuse for their lack of ambition and leadership. They just don't want to deal with women, and they especially don't want to have to compete against them. They want women home and quiet.
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RE: reason for negative views of feminism in the church - 
