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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 8/1/2007 9:26:51 PM
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walterquez
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It is not error since the Church understands baptism is the first which the heretics did not understand, and now the Protestants follow the same route and are filled with many false theories regarding it.
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For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 8/1/2007 9:47:07 PM
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Ezra
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quote:
The Orthodox "is" the New Testament Church.
Walter:s
There is no such entity as "THE" New Testament Church.
We have the Church (the Body of Christ) and churches in the NT. Some of these churches were true to the faith, others had deviated from Bible truth.
Sadly, the EOC and the RCC also deviated from the truth, and I am simply surprised that you have not searched the Scriptures and discovered these departures. You keep on believing that Orthodoxy trumps the Bible.
But we are commanded to prove all things, so please check every Orthodox doctrine against Scripture. You'll be amazed at the discrepancies. Interestingly enough, I have still not been able to find the word "Orthodox" in the NT.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 8/1/2007 11:09:29 PM
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walterquez
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
Walter:s
There is no such entity as "THE" New Testament Church. The Body of Christ in the New Testament "is" an entity.
quote:
We have the Church (the Body of Christ) and churches in the NT. Some of these churches were true to the faith, others had deviated from Bible truth. It is true that some have left the faith, but this is expected since the Apostles have warned us about them. They came out from us, but they were not of us, remember?
But no where do you find in the scripture that the whole Church became corrupted. Sure some have fallen, but the Church still remains.
quote:
Sadly, the EOC and the RCC also deviated from the truth, and I am simply surprised that you have not searched the Scriptures and discovered these departures. I have searched the Holy Scripture. Unfortunately, it is you who is refusing to accept it. The Holy Scripture is clear who the Church is. It is obviously "not" branches who have broken off from the Church since those are heretics, and neither are the new groups of people coming together forming new denominations. Christ never spoke of such. He founded only One, Holy, and Apostolic Church, not many.
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You keep on believing that Orthodoxy trumps the Bible. No, we do not trump the bible at all. We have repeatedly told you that the Traditions and the Holy Scriptures, which technically is part of, go together. One does not trump the other. The Tradition and the Epistles is what the Apostles commanded us to keep. Why you only believe to keep half of that commandment, I don't know.
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But we are commanded to prove all things, so please check every Orthodox doctrine against Scripture. You'll be amazed at the discrepancies. And so are we to prove all things. I have checked Orthodox doctrine against the Holy Scripture and it fits like a glove. But before this, I had to put aside all private interpretations and start from scratch. When I did, it all started to make sense.
quote:
Interestingly enough, I have still not been able to find the word "Orthodox" in the NT. You misunderstand Orthodoxy. Orthodoxy is not a name, but a description, meaning having sound doctrine. We are Orthodox as oppose to unorthodox or heterodox.
_____________________________
St. Athanasius the Great
For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 8/2/2007 12:33:31 AM
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rosswell59
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Ezra,
Actually, all the NT churches together form THE new testament church. The difference between them and EOC is that ecclesiastical authority was local not ecumenical. Each local church answered directly to Christ as head in heaven. The apostles did minister ecumenically but it was always in teaching the proper doctrines locally so that they could act appropriately. I think that may be the point you were trying to make.
Yours in Christ,
Ross
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 8/2/2007 8:20:10 PM
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walterquez
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rosswell59
Ezra,
Actually, all the NT churches together form THE new testament church. The difference between them and EOC... There was not one group called the New Testament Church, and another the Orthodox Church. They are one and the same. The New Testament Church is Orthodox, because she has the right doctrine, as oppose to heterodox. She is the pillar and ground of truth, hence, Orthodox.
_____________________________
St. Athanasius the Great
For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 8/2/2007 10:41:43 PM
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Ezra
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quote:
ORIGINAL: walterquez
quote:
ORIGINAL: rosswell59
Ezra,
Actually, all the NT churches together form THE new testament church. The difference between them and EOC... There was not one group called the New Testament Church, and another the Orthodox Church. They are one and the same. The New Testament Church is Orthodox, because she has the right doctrine, as oppose to heterodox. She is the pillar and ground of truth, hence, Orthodox.
Both the terms "New Testament Church" and "Orthodox Church" are anachronistic, and do not describe what is found within the New Testament. So Walter, unless you can show us "Orthodox" in the NT, you do not have a case.
What we do find in the NT is "the Church, the Body of Christ" and "the church which is at Rome", "the church which is at Corinth", etc.
Since Christ also revealed that within the Kingdom of Heaven there would be both wheat and tares growing together, the local assemblies in the various cities were not "the Church, the Body of Christ" since all were not genuine believers. Thus they were simply the assemblies or gathering of Christians in those cities.
The Church, the Body of Christ, consists of only those who have been saved by grace, washed in the blood of the Lamb, clothed with His righteousness, and born again to become children of God. They are merely a segment of each local church or assembly, and sometimes the majority, and sometimes the minority.
Today, with Christendom and its plethora of traditionalist and denominational churches, the Church, the Body of Christ, would be found only as a segment in each of the churches or denominations.
The only true Church is the one that cannot be seen with the naked eye.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 8/3/2007 8:07:33 AM
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rosswell59
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quote:
ORIGINAL: texastweet
quote:
The apostles are not the church.
OK, Ross, would you say they are the teaching arm of the Church. I tried to point that out. I mean did they invite all who were baptized to the first council??
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They helped establish the church until scripture was completed.
And that is explained in which chapter and verse?
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This idea of a the church being a hierarchy is a notion which has come down through traditionalism.
Then why the clear example in Acts! It's very much implied in Matt18--take it to the Church.
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That is why it can transcend denominational lines.
No, that is the anarchy of beliefs that is the SS communities. That is a common expression of anarchy right? Nobody is in charge--mob rule. So you think that is the way Christ wanted it? Again, how do you apply Matt 18???
Otis
The apostles had a specific purpose for a specific time. They established order in the early church through teaching and supernatural power. As far as we know, they never excommunicated anyone. Excommunication is established as a local responsibility though it has ecumenical implications as well. Paul addresses several churches in scripture without addressing a hierarchy. There were, of course local leaders who would take the lead in matters of discipline and reception as well as teaching but they are not the church. Each member is responsible for giving assent or withdrawing if necessary from the local body as led by the Holy Spirit. This is plainly the subject of 2 Tim. 2.
Yours in Christ,
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 8/3/2007 8:13:36 PM
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walterquez
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
Both the terms "New Testament Church" and "Orthodox Church" are anachronistic, and do not describe what is found within the New Testament. You misunderstand the meaning of the word "Orthodox".
quote:
So Walter, unless you can show us "Orthodox" in the NT, you do not have a case. Did the New Testament Church have "right teaching"? Then by definition they are Orthodox, for that is what it means. Case closed.
quote:
The Church, the Body of Christ, consists of only those who have been saved by grace, washed in the blood of the Lamb, clothed with His righteousness, and born again to become children of God. They are merely a segment of each local church or assembly, and sometimes the majority, and sometimes the minority. When the epistles were written, they did not refer to a few sprinkles as the Church, but the whole body.
quote:
The only true Church is the one that cannot be seen with the naked eye. This is not scriptural since the Church in the bible was very much visible, and it still is. You need to prove that the Church somehow became invisible.
_____________________________
St. Athanasius the Great
For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 8/3/2007 9:20:36 PM
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Ezra
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quote:
quote:
The only true Church is the one that cannot be seen with the naked eye.
This is not scriptural since the Church in the bible was very much visible, and it still is. You need to prove that the Church somehow became invisible.
Here's the proof:
1. Christ has ascended to Heaven in His glorious resurrection body.
2. Yet the Church is called "the Body of Christ".
3. But the Church consists of countless millions of redeemed souls.
4. Therefore the Church is not identical to the actual glorious body of Christ.
5. Since the Church is not a physical body, it is a spiritual entity.
6. Since millions of souls consist of the Body of Christ, it is an invisible spiritual entity which cannot be seen with the naked eye, yet with Christ as it's Head and all the individuals as "members" who have been baptized into (or immersed into) that Body.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 8/3/2007 10:00:49 PM
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walterquez
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1. Ok
2. Ok
3. Ok
4. This where your logic took off into some other dimension. What does this have to do with the previous points?
5. This belief is based on number 4 which is not biblical, so this is wrong too.
6. I am a Christian, and I am not invisible. People can see me. The epistles to the Church the Apostles wrote to were not invisible, everyone could see them. Even the Romans could see them, because they were persecuting them.
_____________________________
St. Athanasius the Great
For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 8/3/2007 10:57:26 PM
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Ezra
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quote:
I am a Christian, and I am not invisible. People can see me. The epistles to the Church the Apostles wrote to were not invisible, everyone could see them. Even the Romans could see them, because they were persecuting them.
This is not the issue. The issue is that the relationship of an individual to Christ is within the soul and spirit, which are outwardly invisible, and only perceived by God and Christ.
That Christians are not members of a literal physical body is so evident, it needs no proof. If they were, we would have a monstrosity. But Scripture speaks of a spiritual union with Christ and with other believers which is not visible to the naked eye. That is what the true Church is.
Christ Himself said that not everyone who says "Lord, Lord" is intimately known of Him, which means intimately related to Him. Therefore there will be numerous professing Christains saying "Lord, Lord", but not all will be genuine children of God. Thus the outward form of Christendom is not the true Church, but a mixture of wheat and tares, sheep and goats. This is a teaching of Christ Himself.
And that is the reason why the Orthodox Church cannot claim to be the true Church, since within orthodoxy there will be true possessors and false professors. Furthermore, the EOC has departed from many Bible doctrines and made up it's own doctrines (just like the RCC). Simply putting the label of Tradition over something does not make it scriptural.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 8/4/2007 8:40:03 PM
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rosswell59
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Walter,
No one can see into your heart to know for sure that you are a Christian. Only God knows this. Now IF you are a Christian you will do things which show others that you are. This doesn't MAKE you a Christian, it just SAYS to others that you are or at least may be. The same is true of the church the church is something only God knows for sure but it is supposed to act in a way which TELLS others that it is the church. It is this responsible activity where failure has come in. The invisible part which God sees is perfect since it is done and kept by Him. We live in a time when there are a lot of people who really aren't Christians going around acting like they are and there are a lot of Christians going around acting like they aren't and varying degrees in between. This is why faith becomes very individualistic in character rather than collective as it should be.
Yours in Christ,
Ross
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 8/4/2007 8:56:30 PM
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walterquez
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Nevertheless, Christians are not invisible.
_____________________________
St. Athanasius the Great
For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 8/4/2007 9:41:30 PM
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rosswell59
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We have the words "the Lord knows those who are His" given in connection with the failure of 2 Tim.2. What is visible is so mixed up, you can't tell who's who by appearances. It is true that Christians do produce fruit worthy of their faith though.
Yours in Christ,
Ross
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 8/4/2007 10:51:01 PM
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walterquez
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You're beating around the bush. It doesn't change the fact that Christians are not invisible. The Church is very visible.
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St. Athanasius the Great
For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 8/5/2007 12:28:41 AM
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Ezra
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quote:
ORIGINAL: walterquez
You're beating around the bush. It doesn't change the fact that Christians are not invisible. The Church is very visible.
If, as you say, the Church is visible, and since the Church is called "the Body of Christ", pray tells us where we may view this body with hundreds of thousands of hands and feet and eyes all connected together from all parts of the globe? And what about the Head, is He also visible?
It would be a remarkable sight if indeed it were visible. It would also be a monstrosity which would bring nothing but derision.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 8/5/2007 9:14:22 AM
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rosswell59
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Walter,
I don't really like the word invisible but I agree with what it is meant to convey, namely that there is not one unified body of believers today I can point to and say "that's the church". I prefer the word indiscernable in that as one of faith I can see it but those of the world can't. What they see is this monstrosity known as Christendom which envelopes the church. This is the great house of 2 Tim. 2.
Yours in Christ,
Ross
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 8/5/2007 12:21:36 PM
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unworthyseraphim
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quote:
If, as you say, the Church is visible, and since the Church is called "the Body of Christ", pray tells us where we may view this body with hundreds of thousands of hands and feet and eyes all connected together from all parts of the globe? And what about the Head, is He also visible?
Well you could stick around for the Holy Eucharist to catch a glimpse. Or you could purify your nous through lifelong acesis and unbroken prayer and the Lord may then consider you able to bear such immediate perception and that such knowledge would be salvic for you....but if you did all that you would be Orthodox and most likely a monastic. I'm not holding my breath. That said, just because a man is blind doesn't mean there is no light or nothing to see...it just means the blind man lacks the perceptive capacity to behold it. Now that blind man has two choices with regard to the light...deny it exists because it lies outside his ability to discern, or admit that he is blind and defer to those who do see and can tell him about the light and how to find healing so that his eyes may one day be opened. I prefer the healing path myself but maybe that is just me.
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 8/5/2007 2:11:01 PM
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GoodME_II
Posts: 364
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quote:
That said, just because a man is blind doesn't mean there is no light or nothing to see...it just means the blind man lacks the perceptive capacity to behold it. Now that blind man has two choices with regard to the light...deny it exists because it lies outside his ability to discern, or admit that he is blind and defer to those who do see and can tell him about the light and how to find healing so that his eyes may one day be opened. I prefer the healing path myself but maybe that is just me.
This is simply excellent.
Did you make that up or borrow it from somebody?
This is exactly it - I no longer have to search for the words to describe the issues I have with "self-discernmnet". The issues are adequately captured by this analogy.
If you tightened it up a bit more - it would be a great signature on this site.
Good post, man.
_____________________________
"For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there is disorder and every foul practice. But the wisdom from above is...peaceable, gentle, compliant, full of...good fruits...And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace for those who cultivate peace"
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 8/5/2007 8:25:57 PM
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rosswell59
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Then again it could simply be as scripture says, which by the way is the true light, that things are so mixed up that only the Lord knows who are His. I prefer to have my eyes opened by the truth of scripture than by an ecclesiastical system which rose out of the ruinous condition of the church which came early on.
Yours in Christ,
Ross
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 8/17/2007 7:39:55 PM
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Lurker
Posts: 740
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rosswell59
Then again it could simply be as scripture says, which by the way is the true light, that things are so mixed up that only the Lord knows who are His. I prefer to have my eyes opened by the truth of scripture than by an ecclesiastical system which rose out of the ruinous condition of the church which came early on.
Yours in Christ,
Ross
How do you know that the Church was in ruinous condition early on?
_____________________________
Do not be afraid of Christ! He takes nothing away, and he gives you everything. When we give ourselves to him, we receive a hundredfold in return. Yes, open, open wide the doors to Christ—and you will find true life.
-Pope Benedict XVI
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 8/17/2007 7:44:50 PM
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rosswell59
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quote:
How do you know that the Church was in ruinous condition early on?
2 Tim. 2
Yours in Christ,
Ross
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 8/17/2007 8:34:51 PM
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Lurker
Posts: 740
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rosswell59
quote:
How do you know that the Church was in ruinous condition early on?
2 Tim. 2
Yours in Christ,
Ross
Matthew 16:18.
specifically the part about "and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it."
_____________________________
Do not be afraid of Christ! He takes nothing away, and he gives you everything. When we give ourselves to him, we receive a hundredfold in return. Yes, open, open wide the doors to Christ—and you will find true life.
-Pope Benedict XVI
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 8/17/2007 8:52:57 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lurker
Matthew 16:18.
specifically the part about "and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it."
Absolutely, and no matter how hard the "Mother" chuch organizations have trined to destroy what Christ set up, and the simplistic truth of the Scriptures; He is faithful and true and keeps a remnant true and alive.
Thank you Jesus.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 8/17/2007 9:17:51 PM
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Ezra
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quote:
Matthew 16:18.
specifically the part about "and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it."
Lurker:
Three things should be carefully noted in this verse:
1. Peter is petros but the Rock on which Christ builds His church is petra -- Himself.
2. "My Church" is the Body of Christ -- each and every redeemed soul which has been purchased with His blood. This goes far beyond any organization of earth -- it is a living organism, with Christ as the Head.
3. Hell is Hades, the abode of the departed dead, which, before the resurrection of Christ held all the OT saints in "Abraham's bosom".
So, far from teaching the invincibility of the Catholic Church, this verse tells us that because the Church (as His Body) is built upon Christ Himself, Hades could not hold the OT saints captive, but they were taken up when Christ ascended up to Heaven. He first descended into Hades voluntarily (as the creeds affirm), and then ascended out of Hades on the third day.
Thus we read in Eph. 4:8 "Wherefore He saith, When He ascended up on high, He led captivity captive, and gave gifts to men".
The gates of Hades were torn asunder when Christ led the captives out of Hades into Paradise.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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