|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/16/2008 9:29:37 PM
|
|
|
SealedEternal
Posts: 991
Joined: 3/20/2006
From: Milwaukee, WI
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
As to who she commits adultery against:
Matt 5.28 but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
So the single young man who is aching for a certain single young lady is committing adultery by drooling over her. But against whom?
As Lastblast pointed out, it makes no sense to say that a single man and a single woman are committing adultery. Adultery by definition is the sin of a married person having sexual relations with someone other than his or her spouse, or a single person who has sexual relations with a person married to another. To commit adultery in ones heart, either the luster or the one being lusted after must be married. Therefore your attempt to interpret Matthew 5:32 to mean that a man makes his wife commit adultery by divorcing her because she may lust after him in her heart can't be correct, because according to you the divorce makes them both single so adultery couldn't be an issue.
It makes much more sense to interpret the verse to mean that he makes her commit adultery by divorcing her because women in that day were highly dependent on men to survive, so they usually remarried after a treacherous husband dumped them with no means to survive. It also explains why the verse goes on to state that any man that married her was committing adultery by doing so, which means that her husbands divorce did not release her from the marriage bond. It's not just my "assumption", but the only possible conclusion to that verse as well as the many others which state that "Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery", "He who marries one who is divorced from a husband commits adultery", "If she herself divorces her husband and marries another man, she is committing adultery", "If while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress", etc. Your explanation doesn't make sense with any of those.
SealedEternal
_____________________________
For information on Marriage and Divorce http://sealedeternal.bravehost.com/1.html
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/16/2008 9:57:35 PM
|
|
|
keepingfaith
Posts: 706
Joined: 5/11/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
I believe that this is the reason for the exception in Mt. 5 and 19. For instance, when those following Hillel gave their wife a certificate of divorce because she had burned a meal, they were guilty of causing her to commit adultery if she then remarried.
Benelchi
According to your own theology a woman unjustly put away would NOT be committing adultery upon remarriage because she would have a "biblical" divorce (1cor7 your exception for abandonment)...so you have just confused me.
On another note, do you believe that Pastors should be participating in ceremonies joining couples in what Jesus calls adultery? Even if you believe it is a one time act of adultery... do you believe a God fearing honest Pastor in good conscience should participate in something Jesus calls adultery...and still has the right to profess the name of Jesus? Being a partaker in their adultery?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/16/2008 10:48:02 PM
|
|
|
SealedEternal
Posts: 991
Joined: 3/20/2006
From: Milwaukee, WI
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: keepingfaith
quote:
I believe that this is the reason for the exception in Mt. 5 and 19. For instance, when those following Hillel gave their wife a certificate of divorce because she had burned a meal, they were guilty of causing her to commit adultery if she then remarried.
Benelchi
According to your own theology a woman unjustly put away would NOT be committing adultery upon remarriage because she would have a "biblical" divorce (1cor7 your exception for abandonment)...so you have just confused me.
I never really thought about that before, but you make an excellent point. If abandonment "dissolves" the marriage bond, then there could be no illegal divorces and remarriages, because when either person divorced the other they obviously abandoned the marriage, and thus both would be single.
So why is the woman committing adultery by remarrying if her husband abandoned her Benelchi?
SealedEternal
_____________________________
For information on Marriage and Divorce http://sealedeternal.bravehost.com/1.html
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/16/2008 11:03:25 PM
|
|
|
2Timothy3_16
Posts: 11
Joined: 4/16/2008
Status: offline
|
I have read most of these 350-plus pages.
Where exactly in God's word does Jesus say that Adultery is Grounds For Divorce?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/17/2008 7:44:59 AM
|
|
|
SealedEternal
Posts: 991
Joined: 3/20/2006
From: Milwaukee, WI
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: 2Timothy3_16
I have read most of these 350-plus pages.
Where exactly in God's word does Jesus say that Adultery is Grounds For Divorce?
He never does, but He did make a statement to the Pharisees regarding the Old Covenant Law of Moses saying that fornication is grounds for divorce which is true, but those who try to justify divorce and remarriage claim He meant adultery, which is not. What He does say four times in three of the Gospels is that remarriage after a divorce is adultery, which most of them either deny, or claim is a one time adulterous event that magically morphs into a legal marriage, or go as far as to say that it is adultery which makes it legal because they claim adultery is the exception to the rule. The simple fact is that He always says remarriage is adultery and never says that adultery is grounds which would obviously be self refuting by making adultery both the sin one commits in remarrying, and the justification for doing so at the same time, which in effect makes all remarriage after divorce legal because it is committing adultery. In other words according to them, it is by committing adultery that one is free to remarry and not committing adultery to remarry, and if one remarries illegally without committing adultery, they are committing adultery which makes it legal. None of them can explain the obvious illogic of such a position.
SealedEternal
_____________________________
For information on Marriage and Divorce http://sealedeternal.bravehost.com/1.html
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/17/2008 9:11:14 AM
|
|
|
DaveW
Posts: 3752
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: SealedEternal
As Lastblast pointed out, it makes no sense to say that a single man and a single woman are committing adultery. Adultery by definition is the sin of a married person having sexual relations with someone other than his or her spouse, or a single person who has sexual relations with a person married to another. To commit adultery in ones heart, either the luster or the one being lusted after must be married. Therefore your attempt to interpret Matthew 5:32 to mean that a man makes his wife commit adultery by divorcing her because she may lust after him in her heart can't be correct, because according to you the divorce makes them both single so adultery couldn't be an issue.
But what does the text say? If you look at a woman (not your wife) and lust after her you are committing μοιχεύω moicheuō adultery, NOT πορνεία pornia fornication.
Is that not what the text says? Where in the text does it say married or not?
Stop trying to write something in there from your logic ("...makes no sense...") that the text does not support.
_____________________________
Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/17/2008 12:04:07 PM
|
|
|
Dreams2music
Posts: 5
Joined: 4/17/2008
Status: offline
|
I've read these posts (2005 to present) and I have seen the following;
No second marriage EVER even if one's original spouse remarries - tough luck cuz u r doomed to remain single (ominous chord) FOREVER.
Second marriage allowed if the first marriage partner was divorced for adultery.
I am not certain but I don't think I've read anything related to what I am asking. So I have some questions for the first group. If one remarries anyway and THEN the original covenant partner dies, does their death magically transform a once adulterous marriage into a covenant marriage?
I have a question for the second group; since some assert Yeshua was speaking to a Hebrew audience in Matthew 19 and if you believe that their (the Hebrew audience) understanding was that the marriage was of two Jewish virgins and PERMANENT with the exception of adultery (and then the innocent spouse was allowed to divorce the one in sin) why would Shaul (Paul write) "now concerning virgins I have NO command from the L-rd?"
Thanks,
D.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/17/2008 12:14:55 PM
|
|
|
Fritzpw_Admin
Posts: 7592
Joined: 2/28/2005
From: New Jersey
Status: offline
|
ADMIN'S NOTE :: ATTENTION PLEASE
To everyone,
I want to be very clear about something.
The purpose of this thread is to dicuss the TOPIC of Remarriage After Divorce.
It is NOT for the purpose of discussing YOUR divorce.
I have found that people who post with statements like, "so because I divorced my spouse I am now forever a sinner and never to be forgiven?" are opening themselves up to being hurt or hurting someone else.
If you are not able to participate in this topic without discussing the experience of YOUR divorce then I must request that you stay out of the thread.
Posts which ignore this warning will be removed without warning and may result in other action in accordance with the Terms of Service.
Thank you for your attention, understanding, and cooperation.
Please do not reply to this message within the Community.
Please email Community@salemwebnetwork.com with questions, comments, or concerns.
Please do not send me PMs regarding this message.
_____________________________
Fritz
Senior Manager of Social Media
fritz@salemwebnetwork.com
Want to see my latest online project? Check out http://christianfriend.com
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/17/2008 12:21:52 PM
|
|
|
Dreams2music
Posts: 5
Joined: 4/17/2008
Status: offline
|
Cindy wrote:
quote:
The biblical evidence is: not all BETROTHED women who were guilty of fornication were stoned to death. We find in the OT that the ones who WEREN'T stoned were those who were in the country and cried out, but noone could hear them to come to their defense. It is my belief that since Jesus made it clear that divorce was due to hardheartedness on the man's part, and since Joseph was called a JUST man, that his thoughts of putting Mary away privately was due to his wanting to believe she did not WILLINGLY commit fornication. So, he did not want her either to be stoned, NOR suffer public disgrace through a public accusation.
I have a question and I may get this wrong, in a prior posting (some back as far as 2005) someone wrote that in order to properly understand the scripture an understanding was also required of the culture in which they were written. I agree with this because the Jewish culture is far different from Christian then and now. In fact, as a Messianic believer this is especially true today. The Jewish believer's understanding of their culture and how the Tanach (Old Testament) and the Torah (the law) and the Brit Chadashah (New Testament) is essential. One can stick with the plain reading of scripture and be lead astray by post-modern Christian bias, thus be deceived as to the true meaning of scripture.
But since the L-rd says that if anyone lacks wisdom let them ask, all we (believers) need do is ask for understanding.
I have seen some very wise posts explaining this concept and then seen the reply come back that essentially ignores the Tanach in favor of the Brit Chadashah, as if G-d had changed his mind. The Word says to us that he is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Thus the Tanach is as valid as the Brit Chadashah. He has said he did not come to change the law (Mateyahu/Matthew 5:12). Fulfill DOES NOT MEAN OVERTURN or CHANGE. Fulfill means to complete what was established. So the Torah of G-d did not change.
The Tanach is the Old Testament and many take that to mean a similar sense as "that is my OLD car" in a way as to imply not worth keeping And some take New Testament to mean it superseded the old "I got rid of my OLD car." Nothing is further from the truth. The law has not been done away with, what has been done away with is the penalty of the law. If the law were done away with then Shaul (Paul) would not have used the example that a woman is bound to her husband while he yet lives, for it would have made no sense to the audience he was writing to if the law were done away with by Yeshua's (Jesus') death, burial, and resurrection.
My position is that a second marriage is allowed if one has divorced because of persistent unrepentant adultery by one's spouse. And I find some who agree with this in this. I also believe that 1 Cor 7:15 refers to duloo bondage being freedom IF THE UNBELIEVER divorces their believing spouse.
Why did I write about the Torah/Tanach? Because it is valid today. Deuteronomy 24 correctly states that a wife may NOT return to her former spouse after a second marriage. Why? Because it is an unholy thing to the land. Or in modern terms, abomination.
What this means is that second marriages were allowed and recognized as marriages.
thanks... if I am treading over old ground realize that it is new to me...
D
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/17/2008 12:56:48 PM
|
|
|
Dakotasunbeam
Posts: 1128
Joined: 6/2/2005
From: Midwest USA
Status: offline
|
Dreams2Music,
quote:
If one remarries anyway and THEN the original covenant partner dies, does their death magically transform a once adulterous marriage into a covenant marriage? '
If you stole a car from a dealership, and three months later the dealership wen bankrupt, would that car be yours? As a Christian with a heart of love toward God, could you in good conscience keep the car? The trouble was that you took the car unlawfully. How then does one obtain the car lawfully? You pay for it and follow the proper means to retain it. If you have cohorted with someone in a broken vow to God, that does not change the fact that you've lied and disobeyed God. Even when the rebellious spouse's partner has died. You still have to go before God. God is what makes a marriage anyway. Not you or I or the Justice of the Peace or whatever legal aparatice is in place. When two people come together with the intent to be married and are elgible for marriage IN GOD'S estimation, then then HE joins them. You can stand before God all day long and vow a thousand times over to marry someone else's spouse and God will not regard that anymore than the wicked man who asks God to slay the innocent. Or more aptly, anymore than Balaam the wicked prophet could curse the Israelites. It just ain't happenin'. We can fool ourselves if we like. But when we walk away from the alter with someone elses spouse in a hail of rice and confetti, do you think God is smiling on theft and disobedience? Nah. We can fool others. We can decieve ourselves. But we cannot fool God.
Bless you in your search for truth.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/17/2008 1:19:53 PM
|
|
|
Dakotasunbeam
Posts: 1128
Joined: 6/2/2005
From: Midwest USA
Status: offline
|
quote:
My position is that a second marriage is allowed if one has divorced because of persistent unrepentant adultery by one's spouse. And I find some who agree with this in this. I also believe that 1 Cor 7:15 refers to duloo bondage being freedom IF THE UNBELIEVER divorces their believing spouse.
Divorce is NOT the domain of those who are married, but those who are betrothed under the law for the hardness of men's hearts. The israelites were NOT practiseing the law right, and Jesus corrected them. Do you see how that your assertions are simply driving home the fact that you are following the traditions of your fathers and not the commandment of God? The Bible says nothing about "persistent unrepentant adultry." You might find that in the Book of Human Rational verse 6:66. But you won't find that in the Law. Adulterers are to be stoned--not divorced. If you truly seek to follow the law and not rely on the new covenant provided by Jesus Christ's shed blood, then you MUST take up stones and stone your adulterous spouse! If you do not, then you do not keep the law and are then a transgressor of the law. And if you do not keep ALL of the law, then you MUST be cast into hell--there is no reprieve.
Also again, you quote from the Book of Human Rational & Righteousness in verse 3:3 when you say that if an unbeliever divorces a spouse, the believing spouse is not bound; because 1 Cor 7:15 did not say that.
Jesus Christ DID fulfill the law, confirm it. He wrote it on our hearts. God gave us hearts of flesh. We now can have the MIND of Christ. If Christ is communicating only what His Father says and does, and we are indwelt by the holy spirit, I am confused as to why the spirit would communicate that divorce was OK if God hates it. God forebared divorce, just as He is forebaring sin on earth till that time when all men have had an opportunity to hear the gospel. God doesn't allow serial killers to remain alive because He likes what they do, He forebares becasue He is giving EVERYONE--even serial killers the opportunity to REPENT, turn away from their wickedness and be RECONCILED to God.
Truly, if you follow Christ, you WILL fullfill the law. But the law, was weak in that, although it could point men to their sins, it could not change a hard heart. And as dear followers of Christ, not only will you fullfill it, you will SURPASS it.
The man who forebares his unrepentant adulterous wife is extending grace as God has extended to us. The man is communicating the heart of God by keeping His marriage vows. The man is not forebaring his wife because he likes the fact that she's running around with every Tom, Dick, and Harry; but because he loves her and God enough to forebare her wickedness hoping that she will change before her death. If his wife does not repent and reconcile before death, she dies an adulterer. And we all know that the Bible tells us NO adulterer will inherit the Kingdom of heaven.
If you truly intend to follow the law, then FOLLOW ALL OF IT. Stone the adulterer, the rebellious glutunous son, sacrifice the bulls and lambs, and keep your washings! Otherwise, we become hypocrits who pick and choose what we want from the law and make ourselves no better than the religious leaders of Jesus Christ's day.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/17/2008 2:32:49 PM
|
|
|
Dreams2music
Posts: 5
Joined: 4/17/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Dakotasunbeam
Dreams2Music,
quote:
If one remarries anyway and THEN the original covenant partner dies, does their death magically transform a once adulterous marriage into a covenant marriage? '
If you stole a car from a dealership, and three months later the dealership wen bankrupt, would that car be yours? As a Christian with a heart of love toward God, could you in good conscience keep the car? The trouble was that you took the car unlawfully. How then does one obtain the car lawfully? You pay for it and follow the proper means to retain it. If you have cohorted with someone in a broken vow to God, that does not change the fact that you've lied and disobeyed God. Even when the rebellious spouse's partner has died. You still have to go before God. God is what makes a marriage anyway. Not you or I or the Justice of the Peace or whatever legal aparatice is in place. When two people come together with the intent to be married and are elgible for marriage IN GOD'S estimation, then then HE joins them. You can stand before God all day long and vow a thousand times over to marry someone else's spouse and God will not regard that anymore than the wicked man who asks God to slay the innocent. Or more aptly, anymore than Balaam the wicked prophet could curse the Israelites. It just ain't happenin'. We can fool ourselves if we like. But when we walk away from the alter with someone elses spouse in a hail of rice and confetti, do you think God is smiling on theft and disobedience? Nah. We can fool others. We can decieve ourselves. But we cannot fool God.
Bless you in your search for truth.
I asked the question because I did not read that it was answered or asked.
...but people are not cars, in comparing relationships to merchandizing actions (legal or otherwise), it seems somehow to diminish the relationship aspect of marriage. Marriage is about a relationship, not about anything else so no comparison may do it justice except our relationship to HaShem through Yeshua. I believe that the second marriage is a valid covenant. Consider the covenant that Israel made with the people who deceived them? (Yirmeyahu/JJeremiah 23:1-2) Saul was later punished (killed) because he tried to punish (some by death) those who had deceived Israel. G-d judged Saul for violating the covenant that Yirmeyahu had made. Though they were tricked into making the covenant, G-d required that they keep it. Furthermore, this was despite the fact that Israel had been told NOT to make a covenant with the people of the land.
So a covenant wrought in disobedience and G-d punished Israel for not keeping it. This is a picture of YHWH and a picture of the nature of covenants, even ill advised covenants such as I dare say (this group) would call a second marriage. If it be that.
D
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/17/2008 2:44:18 PM
|
|
|
Dreams2music
Posts: 5
Joined: 4/17/2008
Status: offline
|
Augh. I meant Yahoshua (Joshua). Not Yirmeyahu (Jeremiah).
The full reference is Yahoshua 9:1-27
quote:
ORIGINAL: Dreams2music
quote:
ORIGINAL: Dakotasunbeam
Dreams2Music,
quote:
If one remarries anyway and THEN the original covenant partner dies, does their death magically transform a once adulterous marriage into a covenant marriage? '
If you stole a car from a dealership, and three months later the dealership wen bankrupt, would that car be yours? As a Christian with a heart of love toward God, could you in good conscience keep the car? The trouble was that you took the car unlawfully. How then does one obtain the car lawfully? You pay for it and follow the proper means to retain it. If you have cohorted with someone in a broken vow to God, that does not change the fact that you've lied and disobeyed God. Even when the rebellious spouse's partner has died. You still have to go before God. God is what makes a marriage anyway. Not you or I or the Justice of the Peace or whatever legal aparatice is in place. When two people come together with the intent to be married and are elgible for marriage IN GOD'S estimation, then then HE joins them. You can stand before God all day long and vow a thousand times over to marry someone else's spouse and God will not regard that anymore than the wicked man who asks God to slay the innocent. Or more aptly, anymore than Balaam the wicked prophet could curse the Israelites. It just ain't happenin'. We can fool ourselves if we like. But when we walk away from the alter with someone elses spouse in a hail of rice and confetti, do you think God is smiling on theft and disobedience? Nah. We can fool others. We can decieve ourselves. But we cannot fool God.
Bless you in your search for truth.
I asked the question because I did not read that it was answered or asked.
...but people are not cars, in comparing relationships to merchandizing actions (legal or otherwise), it seems somehow to diminish the relationship aspect of marriage. Marriage is about a relationship, not about anything else so no comparison may do it justice except our relationship to HaShem through Yeshua. I believe that the second marriage is a valid covenant. Consider the covenant that Israel made with the people who deceived them? (Yirmeyahu/JJeremiah 23:1-2) Saul was later punished (killed) because he tried to punish (some by death) those who had deceived Israel. G-d judged Saul for violating the covenant that Yirmeyahu had made. Though they were tricked into making the covenant, G-d required that they keep it. Furthermore, this was despite the fact that Israel had been told NOT to make a covenant with the people of the land.
So a covenant wrought in disobedience and G-d punished Israel for not keeping it. This is a picture of YHWH and a picture of the nature of covenants, even ill advised covenants such as I dare say (this group) would call a second marriage. If it be that.
D
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/17/2008 2:59:35 PM
|
|
|
wildgoose79
Posts: 4
Joined: 4/17/2008
Status: offline
|
This thread has gone on for so long , I just dont have the time to read it all.
So, may I ask a question that might have been addressed?
Whats the reason some Pastors will marry divorced couples and some will not? I think I know what the respones are going to be, but...If it was a no fault divorce with an individual, and God forgives, why would a Pastor hold that against you and refuse to marry you. Even if its your own Pastor?
Also..is there scripture to back up that an individual thats been divorced cant hold leadership in the church, or that just one of all the many man made rules for an individual church?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/17/2008 3:01:02 PM
|
|
|
lastblast
Posts: 1623
Joined: 9/20/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
I have seen some very wise posts explaining this concept and then seen the reply come back that essentially ignores the Tanach in favor of the Brit Chadashah, as if G-d had changed his mind. The Word says to us that he is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Thus the Tanach is as valid as the Brit Chadashah. He has said he did not come to change the law (Mateyahu/Matthew 5:12). Fulfill DOES NOT MEAN OVERTURN or CHANGE. Fulfill means to complete what was established. So the Torah of G-d did not change.
The Tanach is the Old Testament and many take that to mean a similar sense as "that is my OLD car" in a way as to imply not worth keeping And some take New Testament to mean it superseded the old "I got rid of my OLD car." Nothing is further from the truth. The law has not been done away with, what has been done away with is the penalty of the law. If the law were done away with then Shaul (Paul) would not have used the example that a woman is bound to her husband while he yet lives, for it would have made no sense to the audience he was writing to if the law were done away with by Yeshua's (Jesus') death, burial, and resurrection.
Hello. Yes, very good. I do want to address what I underlined above that you said. You said that the PENALTY has been done away with. Now, when speaking of adultery, what was the PENALTY for the adulterer in OT law? I think we both know what that was...........it was DEATH. It was NOT divorce. Jesus shows us this in His interactions with the woman caught in adultery. She does not receive death, but instead receives LIFE through His grace. So the mindset that says, "we don't kill anyone anymore for adultery, but we can divorce them as if they were DEAD, does not align with the GRACE that Jesus extends to the sinner.
You also bring up Rom. 7:2-3, yet that very passage does not show adultery as a cause of dissolvement of the marriage, does it? Paul only speaks of DEATH----the means by which God causes the marriage bond to be dissolved.
quote:
My position is that a second marriage is allowed if one has divorced because of persistent unrepentant adultery by one's spouse. And I find some who agree with this in this. I also believe that 1 Cor 7:15 refers to duloo bondage being freedom IF THE UNBELIEVER divorces their believing spouse.
Where do you find written in God's Word (OT or NT) where there is a "time limit" on how long adultery can go on before one divorces and then contracts a second marriage? As for I Cor. 7:15, I do not agree with you if you mean that "freedom" means that the marriage bond is dissolved due to abandonment. You have to understand this: when Jesus was addressing the marriage issue, He was addressing it to ALL---saved and unsaved. He did not have a different message for the unsaved Pharisee than He gave to His disciples. So, whatever Paul was teaching can not conflict with what Jesus taught---to the saved AND UNSAVED. Paul merely taught on a deeper level what was expected of believers and how they were to conduct themselves in marriage. I see nowhere in that passage where Paul gives permission to marry another. He actually ends his teachings on marriage with this: I Cor. 7:39----death dissolves the marriage bond freeing the one left to marry again.
quote:
Deuteronomy 24 correctly states that a wife may NOT return to her former spouse after a second marriage. Why? Because it is an unholy thing to the land. Or in modern terms, abomination.
I would be very interested to hear your thoughts on David/Michal, Hosea/Gomer, the priest of Mal.2 and the 1st/2nd wife, Herod/Herodias.
In the cases of Michal and Gomer, they DID return to their first husbands after being with other men. In the case of the priests of Mal. 2nd, the Lord REJECTS the man's offerings who has put away his wife and taken another. The Lord calls the 1st wife---"she IS your companion, the wife of the covenant".........In the case of Herod/Herodias, John clearly makes it known that Herodias does NOT belong to Herod, in spite of a divorce and remarriage.
quote:
What this means is that second marriages were allowed and recognized as marriages.
But we do not find that to be the case at all in the NT, and it appears in the examples I give above in the OT, that God recognizes the first covenant as the one which is binding, hence we see Michal return to David AFTER she has married another man and we see the same with Gomer and Hosea (a picture of Jesus/the redeemed Church). We also see in Jer. 3 that God DOES woo back. Blessings...........
_____________________________
Blessings as you seek Him, Cindy
What does the bible say on Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage?
www.marriagedivorce.com
www.cadz.net/faq.html
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/17/2008 3:09:10 PM
|
|
|
lastblast
Posts: 1623
Joined: 9/20/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
I believe that the second marriage is a valid covenant. Consider the covenant that Israel made with the people who deceived them? (Yirmeyahu/JJeremiah 23:1-2) Saul was later punished (killed) because he tried to punish (some by death) those who had deceived Israel. G-d judged Saul for violating the covenant that Yirmeyahu had made. Though they were tricked into making the covenant, G-d required that they keep it. Furthermore, this was despite the fact that Israel had been told NOT to make a covenant with the people of the land.
So a covenant wrought in disobedience and G-d punished Israel for not keeping it. This is a picture of YHWH and a picture of the nature of covenants, even ill advised covenants such as I dare say (this group) would call a second marriage. If it be that.
It's very interesting to me that you place value on someone entering a covenant they were not entitled to enter into, even forbidden to enter into, and they must honor that covenant. Yet, the covenant that the Lord speaks as binding until death, where HE joins two as One, that covenant is NOT binding?
_____________________________
Blessings as you seek Him, Cindy
What does the bible say on Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage?
www.marriagedivorce.com
www.cadz.net/faq.html
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/17/2008 4:24:43 PM
|
|
|
2Timothy3_16
Posts: 11
Joined: 4/16/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: 2Timothy3_16
I have read most of these 350-plus pages.
Where exactly in God's word does Jesus say that Adultery is Grounds For Divorce?
I will check back here from time to time to see if someone can indeed show that I've missed this verse in my study of God's word.
Otherwise, I'd like to say that I must admire the courage of two posters in particular - LastBlast and SealedEternal. Every other page of this thread I saw someone calling one of you a legalist or Pharisese (I don't know how you spell that but I know what it is).
I pray that spiritual blindness and deception be broken from anyone who ever calls someone a legalist for defending the truth of God's word. Legalism is of man. Saying that Jesus meant what he said and said what he meant is the heart of Jesus as long as one applies it in all areas, not just a chosen pet peeve.
LastBlast and SealedEternal - keep up your work for the Lord. You might be outnumbered but you are not outmatched.
I am one of those believers that wasn't well educated on what God's word said about divorce and remarraige, and I assure you I didn't find it to say what I wanted it to say. I am divorced, though not by choice, so for anyone that says it is easy to defend God's word when all is rosy in your life, please know that is not the case, but there is nothing that another man's wife can do for me that I'm willing to go to hell for. Simple as that!!!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/17/2008 4:53:27 PM
|
|
|
lastblast
Posts: 1623
Joined: 9/20/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
So, may I ask a question that might have been addressed?
Whats the reason some Pastors will marry divorced couples and some will not? I think I know what the respones are going to be, but...If it was a no fault divorce with an individual, and God forgives, why would a Pastor hold that against you and refuse to marry you. Even if its your own Pastor?
Good question! One pastor my husband and I knew said he would marry anyone, anywhere. When we started studying marriage, divorce, remarriage, that statement came back to us and we cringed that any pastor would be so flippant about marriage. However, once we knew his own marital background it made sense that he was so flippant with marriage. The truth is that some pastors won't marry divorced persons because Jesus said, "whosever divorces and marries another commits adultery, and whosoever marries one divorced commits adultery". They can plainly see that the individuals, though divorced by man's laws, are not free in God's eyes to be joined with another. In other words, the divorce is invalid, hence a new marriage would be invalid as well-----adulterous.
I have found that some will not marry divorced persons, yet will stand side by side with their co-pastors that WILL marry divorced persons. In other words, they don't want to have their hands dirtied, but are more than willing to embrace in brotherhood the pastor who DOES officiate and bless the act he himself sees as adultery. Go figure.
As far as those who WILL marry divorced persons, I highly doubt that many at all will even go to the 1st spouses to see why the divorce took place. There are even some pastors out there who will joyfully marry people who have spouses wanting reconciliation! All I can say to that, is "WOW, I sure wouldn't want to have to stand before the Lord and explain that one!".
quote:
Also..is there scripture to back up that an individual thats been divorced cant hold leadership in the church, or that just one of all the many man made rules for an individual church?
The requirements for a bishop are found in I Tim. 3:1-7. A divorced man does fit the husband of one wife, if he does not marry again (which actually is sin for ANY member of the Body of Christ, not just an elder or deacon). However, he may not fit the other requirements if his character is what led to the divorce. In other words, just because someone is the husband of one wife does not mean he is then suitable to be a bishop/leader in God's church. Many men who are not divorced/but are married to a first wife are NOT qualified due to ungodly behaviours they have. Having only 1 wife is only 1 of God's requirements. Some people feel that if a man is divorced, then he has not ruled his own house well, therefore, should not be in leadership----I personally feel that is being presumptuous.
The fact is: there are varying opinions on this as well as concerning those who DO chose to marry another person while their covenant spouse is still alive. Some people believe it is perfectly fine for a divorced and remarried man to be a bishop in God's Church even though that representation is far from living out the likeness of Jesus Christ.
_____________________________
Blessings as you seek Him, Cindy
What does the bible say on Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage?
www.marriagedivorce.com
www.cadz.net/faq.html
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/17/2008 5:03:16 PM
|
|
|
lastblast
Posts: 1623
Joined: 9/20/2005
Status: offline
|
II Tim 3:16, thank you so much for the encouraging words..........and thank you for sharing that it is not just those in good marriages who believe in lifelong marriage, but also many who are divorced----either due to their own actions or through the actions of their spouses. May the Lord give you the strength you need to be His witness while filling you with HIS joy and sense of purpose..........Blessings!
_____________________________
Blessings as you seek Him, Cindy
What does the bible say on Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage?
www.marriagedivorce.com
www.cadz.net/faq.html
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/17/2008 7:30:53 PM
|
|
|
keepingfaith
Posts: 706
Joined: 5/11/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
Whats the reason some Pastors will marry divorced couples and some will not? I think I know what the respones are going to be, but...If it was a no fault divorce with an individual, and God forgives, why would a Pastor hold that against you and refuse to marry you. Even if its your own Pastor?
I believe many Pastors are contributing to the destruction of the family unit. I don't believe there are any exceptions for remarriage...but there is no accountability even among those who do...no one is asked why they were divorced. If Pastors would crack down on this, I truly believe there would be more families reconciled and healed. There is no need to pray and wait on the Lord to work in a marriage when someone will help you along to the next in line (with statistically lower odds of success in the next marriage).
I believe marriage is permanent and the covenant is only broken by death, but even if I didn't... I believe it is always wrong to enter into a relationship with a divorced person who has a living first spouse. We are not God and should never take it upon ourselves to claim their relationship is not redeemable. There are way too many miraculous testimonies of the worst of the worst turning around...
I heard a testimony of a man the other day who was dating a divorced woman and after he became a Christian he realized that the right thing for her was to reconcile with her husband. It was very refreshing... How many more families would be healed if we all took this perspective and did not participate in permanently giving a child a broken home. Our wish for that child should be that their parents reconcile and they have a whole family again. Not for us to step in the way of that.
I think even more importantly Christians are not holding each other accountable for the vows they are witnessing. I had 175 people present at my wedding and 1 person held my husband accountable for his vows when he left. True friends speak hard truths, not just what we want to hear. True friends tell us when we are outside of God's will.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/17/2008 8:34:57 PM
|
|
|
benelchi
Posts: 2042
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: online
|
quote:
I have a question for the second group; since some assert Yeshua was speaking to a Hebrew audience in Matthew 19 and if you believe that their (the Hebrew audience) understanding was that the marriage was of two Jewish virgins and PERMANENT with the exception of adultery (and then the innocent spouse was allowed to divorce the one in sin) why would Shaul (Paul write) "now concerning virgins I have NO command from the L-rd?"
I do believe that the Jesus was speaking to a Hebrew audience in all of the passages where he spoke about divorce. I find it very difficult to accept the argument put forth by some that in Mt. he was addressing Hebrews, but not in Mk. and Lk. However I don't believe that his Hebrew audience believed that "that the marriage was of two Jewish virgins and PERMANENT with the exception of adultery (and then the innocent spouse was allowed to divorce the one in sin)". Historical evidence suggest strongly that the predominant view regarding divorce among the Jewish people was the view held by Rabi Hillel i.e. that divorce for almost any reason was acceptable. Jesus I believe was correcting that misinterpretation of the Torah; his teaching clearly did allow for divorce in the case of adultery, but he clearly was opposed to the "divorce for any reason" taught by Rabi Hillel.
quote:
My position is that a second marriage is allowed if one has divorced because of persistent unrepentant adultery by one's spouse. And I find some who agree with this in this. I also believe that 1 Cor 7:15 refers to duloo bondage being freedom IF THE UNBELIEVER divorces their believing spouse.
I agree! I believe this is what the bible really does teach.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/17/2008 8:46:32 PM
|
|
|
SealedEternal
Posts: 991
Joined: 3/20/2006
From: Milwaukee, WI
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
ORIGINAL: SealedEternal
As Lastblast pointed out, it makes no sense to say that a single man and a single woman are committing adultery. Adultery by definition is the sin of a married person having sexual relations with someone other than his or her spouse, or a single person who has sexual relations with a person married to another. To commit adultery in ones heart, either the luster or the one being lusted after must be married. Therefore your attempt to interpret Matthew 5:32 to mean that a man makes his wife commit adultery by divorcing her because she may lust after him in her heart can't be correct, because according to you the divorce makes them both single so adultery couldn't be an issue.
But what does the text say? If you look at a woman (not your wife) and lust after her you are committing μοιχεύω moicheuō adultery, NOT πορνεία pornia fornication.
Is that not what the text says? Where in the text does it say married or not?
Stop trying to write something in there from your logic ("...makes no sense...") that the text does not support.
Since you want to get into the Greek, the term for woman is "gunē" and is also the proper term for "wife", so perhaps the verse would be better translated as "everyone who looks at a wife with lust for her has alr | | |
Forum Tools
Printable Version
