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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 4/8/2008 9:45:11 PM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 1507
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Godhead
Why is the act of babbling (Tongues) dangerous.
So this gift only drives the user on to sin on several different levels.
Agreed, and I didnt know babbling (Tongues) was a gift, but the real gift comes when one is taught properly how to use it.
2 Chronicles 5
5:13
The trumpeters and singers joined in unison, as with one voice, to give praise and thanks to the Lord. Accompanied by trumpets, cymbals and other instruments, they raised their voices in praise to the Lord and sang: "He is good; his love endures forever."
Then the temple of the Lord was filled with a cloud,
Here is an example of prophetic music, LINK
LINK
and the same should apply to an interpertation, when a tounge is given, the direction of worship is always back "to the Father",
Loyal Gypsy
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 4/8/2008 9:56:31 PM
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Godhead
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How can learning to sin be good.
_____________________________
The way the church is today, if any man come who is able to do the miraculous of any kind, he would have such influence over them as putty in the hands of a child.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 4/8/2008 10:41:06 PM
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Ad7
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I was baptized at age 14 and about 15mins after i was praying to G-d for His Holy Spirit and i spoke in tongues. I wasnt messed up with all the arguments as to whether it was or wasnt from G-d, whether your saved or not saved, whether it has ceased or hasnt. I just went to G-d believing what i read in the scriptures, ACTS 2, 10:44-48, 19:1-8. I was young, not a scholar nor a zealous or holy person, just someone who wanted to know if what i understood in the scriptures was true!!
_____________________________
The more G-d reveals, the more i realise how much remains hidden!
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 4/9/2008 7:13:56 PM
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Him4all
Posts: 390
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From: Kansas
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LoyalGypsy,
quote:
Agreed,
I'm lost, what in the world did you agree to in that quote???
Ad7,
What a wonderful testimony. But maybe even more importantly, it is also a statement as to what a mind that has not been seared with the false doctrines of the last days, is capable of believing and receiving from God. And all that's required is heartfelt faith such as you had. A faith which is obviously as easy/hard to come to as a 'head full of mush'. Thankfully that isn't God's head for His people.
I pray your fellowship with the Holy Spirit allows you to grow into fullness of maturity.
DR
_____________________________
Doctrine learned and not lived is lost.
Eyes closed to advice may still be open to example.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 4/9/2008 8:30:10 PM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 1507
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Him4all
Ad7,
What a wonderful testimony. But maybe even more importantly, it is also a statement as to what a mind that has not been seared with the false doctrines of the last days, is capable of believing and receiving from God. And all that's required is heartfelt faith such as you had. A faith which is obviously as easy/hard to come to as a 'head full of mush'. Thankfully that isn't God's head for His people.
I pray your fellowship with the Holy Spirit allows you to grow into fullness of maturity.
DR
2nd that!!!
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 4/9/2008 11:13:34 PM
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TJO5
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Hello Him4all,
I have a question based on this question.
quote:
Why is the act of babbling (Tongues) dangerous.
Why do none of the definitions of babbling mention speaking in tongues?
Surely if there was such a well established similarity at least some mention would be made.
quote:
Babbling... definitions thereof
1-Gibberish resembling the sounds of a baby
2-Utter meaningless sounds, like a baby, or utter in an incoherent way
3-To talk foolishly
4-Flow in an irregular current with a bubbling noise, as of water
5-Talking idly or incoherently
Yours in Christ,
T.J.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 4/9/2008 11:21:39 PM
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Godhead
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Well I clearly listed the sins associated with this bogus, artificial, impostor of a gift. Yet as I said, it is held with such reverence, that not only will they not give it up, but will continue to encourage others to do so.
_____________________________
The way the church is today, if any man come who is able to do the miraculous of any kind, he would have such influence over them as putty in the hands of a child.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 4/10/2008 8:49:48 AM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 1507
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TJO5
Hello Him4all,
I have a question based on this question.
quote:
Why is the act of babbling (Tongues) dangerous.
Why do none of the definitions of babbling mention speaking in tongues?
Surely if there was such a well established similarity at least some mention would be made.
quote:
Babbling... definitions thereof
1-Gibberish resembling the sounds of a baby
2-Utter meaningless sounds, like a baby, or utter in an incoherent way
3-To talk foolishly
4-Flow in an irregular current with a bubbling noise, as of water
5-Talking idly or incoherently
Yours in Christ,
T.J.
Greetings,
Because the Prophetic tongue is for the believer, tongues are for the unbeliever and such separates one from the other, I believe those definitions speak for themselves.
What else do think Paul was trying to tell us???
23 Therefore if the whole church comes together in one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those who are uninformed or unbelievers, will they not say that you are out of your mind?
…..24 But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an uninformed person comes in, he is convinced by all, he is convicted by all.
Obliviously those definitions are a reflection Of a Church or an organization that is not properly using the gift and the poster is b] saying that you are out of your mind?
Loyal Gypsy
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 4/10/2008 11:12:15 AM
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Him4all
Posts: 390
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From: Kansas
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TJ,
quote:
Why do none of the definitions of babbling mention speaking in tongues?
Surely if there was such a well established similarity at least some mention would be made.
I'd say babbling is used by the spiritually "unlearned/ungifted/uninformed" (1Cor 14:16,23), because babbling makes one think of the the negative connotation of the tower of Babel. I've heard that correlation made before from those who try to put down that which they don't have. I think it is merely a mental attempt to bring a demeaning definition to a gift or ability that is from God. And the comments of GH show that there is a definite difference in ungifted attempts to discredit tongues.
As I've said before, he really may be one of our best assets on this thread. Even those who agree with his position appear to be too embarrassed to post an allegience or defense of him and his posts. I don't blame them. How can anyone talk of the fruit of the Spirit as being most important and then side with posts that leave you questioning the presence of such attributes?
LoyalGypsy,
23 Therefore if the whole church comes together in one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those who are uninformed or unbelievers, will they not say that you are out of your mind?
I think a key to understanding the above verse is the comment "and there come in those who are ungifted". Fundamentalists say you should never hear anyone speak a tongue without interpretation. But if I'm in a group where everyone does have a prayer tongue, I don't have to understand it because I am learned/informed/gifted in 'tongues prayer' and realize it's "not understandable to anyone". So in a group where we all have a prayer language I have no problem with everyone praying in tongues. What about you guys?
DR
_____________________________
Doctrine learned and not lived is lost.
Eyes closed to advice may still be open to example.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 4/10/2008 6:13:30 PM
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TJO5
Posts: 147
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Hello Godhead,
quote:
Well I clearly listed the sins associated with this bogus, artificial, impostor of a gift. Yet as I said, it is held with such reverence, that not only will they not give it up, but will continue to encourage others to do so.
I would have to disagree with your assessment of what you provided.
Nowhere did you list any scriptural evidence that a believer should not desire the gift of tongues.
You provide many scriptures indicating that a person should not desire to have anything to do with practicing sin-the only problem I see is the lack of evidence for speaking in tongues being a sinful practice.
Yours in Christ, T.J.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 4/10/2008 6:26:46 PM
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TJO5
Posts: 147
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Hello LocalGypsy,
quote:
Because the Prophetic tongue is for the believer, tongues are for the unbeliever and such separates one from the other, I believe those definitions speak for themselves.
What else do think Paul was trying to tell us???
18 I thank my God I speak with tongues more than you all; 19 yet in the church I would rather speak five words with my understanding, that I may teach others also, than ten thousand words in a tongue. 20 Brethren, do not be children in understanding; however, in malice be babes, but in understanding be mature. 21 In the law it is written: "With [men of] other tongues and other lips I will speak to this people; And yet, for all that, they will not hear Me," says the Lord. 22 Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophesying is not for unbelievers but for those who believe. 23 Therefore if the whole church comes together in one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in [those who are] uninformed or unbelievers, will they not say that you are out of your mind? 24 But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an uninformed person comes in, he is convinced by all, he is convicted by all. 25 And thus the secrets of his heart are revealed; and so, falling down on [his] face, he will worship God and report that God is truly among you.
I believe Paul was a believer who spoke in tongues more than anyone,and encouraged people to speak in tongues; but he knew that prophesying was more edifying.
The sign that Paul mtalks about in this scripture is the key.
God sent a prophecy that tongues would be spoken to His people,but they wouldn't believe or receive them-they occupy the place of the unbeliever.
What do you think the scripture means?
Yours in Christ,
T.J.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 4/10/2008 6:29:56 PM
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TJO5
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Hello Him4all,
I still haven't seen a logical reason why Paul would write so much about speaking in tongues and the other gifts of the Spirit to the churches if they were going to be discontinued after the apostles were all gone.
Yours in Christ ,
T.J.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 4/11/2008 9:20:39 AM
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Him4all
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From: Kansas
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TJ,
Are you confusing me with someone else? I'm not trying to discount tongues. I pray in tongues. I've been Spirit baptized and prayer tongue speaking since 1972. I have also manifested The Spirit's gift of tongues with interpretation.
DR
_____________________________
Doctrine learned and not lived is lost.
Eyes closed to advice may still be open to example.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 4/11/2008 9:39:03 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 4623
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Him4all
23 Therefore if the whole church comes together in one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those who are uninformed or unbelievers, will they not say that you are out of your mind?
I think a key to understanding the above verse is the comment "and there come in those who are ungifted". Fundamentalists say you should never hear anyone speak a tongue without interpretation. But if I'm in a group where everyone does have a prayer tongue, I don't have to understand it because I am learned/informed/gifted in 'tongues prayer' and realize it's "not understandable to anyone". So in a group where we all have a prayer language I have no problem with everyone praying in tongues. What about you guys?
I concur, from a reading of First Corinthians 14 I believe that folks who deny "Tongues", attribute the gift to the devil, to overactive imaginations, or to deception are either unlearned, or they are unbelievers.
The learned and believers recognize "Tongues" for what they are; a Gift of the Holy Spirit, whether they are prophecy, prayer, or singing.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 4/11/2008 3:41:40 PM
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JesKlu
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Hello neighbors!
Let me give you my opinion. I believe tongues are still around. But the people who truly speak in tongues don't make a point of bragging about it. And not only that, the gift of tongues is one of the most ABUSED gifts of God. That's why so many people are speaking against it. But I will try not to judge all of the tongue speakers, but I will say this. God gives gifts according to His Good Will, and that may mean that a believer may only speak in tongues one time, it may not be a lifelong gift. I myself have not spoken in tongues, I do not have that gift. But if I do one day, I probably won't tell anyone because of how it is taken and abused.
In the Charismatic movement today, people TEACH peple how to speak in tongues. I myself while I was walking from college to go get a bus pass at a nearby Jewel, this Pentecostal guy was handing out bulletins teaching you how to speak in tongues. Now that is FRAUDULENT! You either have it, or you don't. You don't just teach someone this, it's from God, not man.
Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica
_____________________________
2And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them 3and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 4/11/2008 6:41:29 PM
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Godhead
Posts: 273
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Why this Babbling (Tongues) cannot be a special prayer language.
But when you pray, do not babble vain words, as the nations. For they think that in their much speaking they shall be heard. Therefore do not be like them, for your Father knows what things you have need of, before you ask Him. Therefore pray in this way: Our Father, who is in Heaven, Hallowed be Your name. Your kingdom come, Your will be done, on earth as it is in Heaven. Give us this day our daily bread; and forgive us our debts as we also forgive our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil. For Yours is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, forever. Amen.
(Mat 6:7-13 Modern KJV)
When somebody asked Jesus how to pray, he did not start mindlessly babbling away. First of all He said not to use vain repetition. Modern babbling tongues, is vain repetition in its most truest form, for it is the same thing over and over again. He went on to show us that we should use intelligent, and meaningful sentences. So prayer to our father should not be mindless babble, but instead addressing certain aspects of our lives in regards to our duty to God, and our duty to others as well as our immediate needs.
In the light of this and many other obvious faults with Modern Babble, we can agree that God would not send down to us a special prayer language when Jesus has already told us how we should pray.
_____________________________
The way the church is today, if any man come who is able to do the miraculous of any kind, he would have such influence over them as putty in the hands of a child.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 4/11/2008 7:00:32 PM
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Godhead
Posts: 273
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TJO5
Hello Him4all,
I still haven't seen a logical reason why Paul would write so much about speaking in tongues and the other gifts of the Spirit to the churches if they were going to be discontinued after the apostles were all gone.
Yours in Christ ,
T.J.
Because Pauls letters were letters to churches that existed in the days following Christ asention. The Apostels and early Christians who were to take the gospel into the whole world, were given the means to preach it in several different languages to accomplish what Jesus had commanded them. The Apostles were just common Jews and could not speak several different languages. So God gave them the ability to do so, to fulfill there mission to preach to all nations. The mistake that everybody is making today is that this modern babble is called tongues, and so whenever Paul mentions the word tongues, they immediately assume (For they have been brain washed and indoctrinated to do so) that he is talking about this modern babble. NO! Paul is talking about the gift God gave the Apostles and early Christians to preach the Gospel in several different languages. That is how you understand what Paul was talking about, that is properly dividing the word of truth. Paul talks so much about it, for that church at Corinth was abusing that gift for the purpose of show and not for preaching thee gospel to the unsaved.
So that tongues are not a sign to those who believe, but to those who do not believe.
(1Co 14:22 Modern KJV)
Gill says that they were a gentile church probably speaking in Hebrew, of which they could only understand the Greek language. Hebrew being the language of our Lord they were speaking it by the power of the Holy Ghost for show, but the congregation were not getting any instructions or benefit from it only other then entertainment. What does all this show us, that the role of the church is not to entertain, but to instruct its members in the gospel truths and in the ways of our Lord Jesus Christ. This tongues movement is not Christianity, but as my mothers paster has said, "It wants to take Christians and transform them into something entirely different." Be warned my brothers and sisters. God be with you all and strengthen you for what's to come.
_____________________________
The way the church is today, if any man come who is able to do the miraculous of any kind, he would have such influence over them as putty in the hands of a child.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 4/11/2008 7:54:51 PM
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TJO5
Posts: 147
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Hello Him4all,
quote:
Are you confusing me with someone else? I'm not trying to discount tongues. I pray in tongues. I've been Spirit baptized and prayer tongue speaking since 1972. I have also manifested The Spirit's gift of tongues with interpretation.
No. I pretty much know your stance on tongues. I mostly was checking to see if you had an opinion concerning that question.
Yours in Christ,
T.J.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 4/11/2008 8:15:30 PM
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TJO5
Posts: 147
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Hello Godhead,
quote:
Why this Babbling (Tongues) cannot be a special prayer language.
But when you pray, do not babble vain words, as the nations. For they think that in their much speaking they shall be heard. Therefore do not be like them, for your Father knows what things you have need of, before you ask Him. Therefore pray in this way: Our Father, who is in Heaven, Hallowed be Your name. Your kingdom come, Your will be done, on earth as it is in Heaven. Give us this day our daily bread; and forgive us our debts as we also forgive our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil. For Yours is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, forever. Amen.
(Mat 6:7-13 Modern KJV)
When somebody asked Jesus how to pray, he did not start mindlessly babbling away. First of all He said not to use vain repetition. Modern babbling tongues, is vain repetition in its most truest form, for it is the same thing over and over again. He went on to show us that we should use intelligent, and meaningful sentences. So prayer to our father should not be mindless babble, but instead addressing certain aspects of our lives in regards to our duty to God, and our duty to others as well as our immediate needs.
14 For if I pray in an [unknown] tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. 15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
Paul -by inspiration of the Holy Spirit,tells us that we should pray with our spirit (in tongues by the context),and also with the understanding.
The context of what you quoted has nothing to do with tongues as they weren't an issue when Jesus was teaching. Vain repetition is simply repeating the same thing over and over-like a chant.
Yours in Christ,
T.J.
< Message edited by TJO5 -- 4/11/2008 8:21:42 PM >
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 4/11/2008 8:26:24 PM
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lw9
Posts: 1281
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quote:
LBolt: So sad, this is a beautiful gift that He has given to the body of Messiah. To hear that it's now "antiquated and of the devil" shows a lack of understanding of the scriptures. It spoken of in OT and NT. See Isaiah 28:11, Acts, I Cor. 14 et al.
quote:
rcjames: You put it much more delicately and kindly than I do, you are correct that it is sad and it has eternal consequences.
rcjames, perhaps you can spell this out for me. If I or anyone else does not believe that modern day babbling is the actual gift of Biblical tongues, what eternal consequences will we suffer? Do you believe I/we are going to hell? I would just appreciate an honest answer on your views. Thanks
_____________________________
Aperture Science. We do what we must because we can.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 4/12/2008 12:23:13 AM
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HisPriest
Posts: 40
Joined: 4/11/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Fritzpw_Admin
Are tongues a gift given to Christians today, or did they cease with the writing of the New Testament?
Are tongues necessary for or THE indication of salvation?
Can a Christian be filled with the Holy Spirit but not speak in tongues?
Are "prayer languages" biblical, or are tongues only valid within a group setting?
Does interpretation of tongues have to happen whenever someone utters anything in tongues in a group setting, or is praying in tongues, in a group, without interpretation OK?
Are tongues strictly a "heavenly language" or are they earthly languages?
Discuss these and other issues related to speaking in tongues.
Whithout any doubt, the word "tongue" in the Bible simply means "a language" when Jesus told His followers to "go and teach all nations" the big problem to that was the language! So, when God give for the first time this gift at Pentecost (Acts 2: 1-4) this men spoke and everyone understood in their own language "we hear, each in our own language in which we were born" (v. 7); and just in case I should mention that it was the gift of tongues and not the gift of ears.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 4/12/2008 1:45:59 AM
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Zhi
Posts: 656
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I've only heard one person really pray in tongues, and she did so with such passion and conviction that I felt I could understand her anyway. Granted I believe she was speaking her native language (Chinese), but if there was ever a time when I thought someone might have the gift of tongues that would be it... not because I couldn't understand it, but because on some level I could.
The thing that bothers me about the common opinion regarding tongues is that people and denominations for the most part seem to either entirely reject it or entirely require it. This appears to be unlike any of the other spiritual gifts... people can accept that someone was not given the spiritual gift of, say, preaching, without claiming that that person must therefore not be a Christian or not be filled with the Spirit, but I know quite a few people who believe that if you don't speak in tongues, you haven't received the Spirit.
Speaking in tongues is listed as a spiritual gift, but it's listed as merely one of the spiritual gifts. It is not more or less important than any of the other spiritual gifts, and manifestation of it certainly shouldn't be a requirement. Just as one should be discerning regarding whether or not someone's teaching is a spiritual gift, one should be discerning as to whether a person speaking in tongues is exercising a spiritual gift. This means both accepting a true manifestation of the gift, and disapproving of people pretending to manifest the gift for their own personal aggrandizement. And, no one should ever be forced by anyone to attempt to manifest a spiritual gift that the Spirit has not given them and led them to use. Mostly because it's a pointless exercise, if not a downright mockery of spiritual gifts.
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 4/12/2008 3:16:28 PM
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Him4all
Posts: 390
Joined: 6/26/2007
From: Kansas
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TJ,
quote:
I still haven't seen a logical reason why Paul would write so much about speaking in tongues and the other gifts of the Spirit to the churches if they were going to be discontinued after the apostles were all gone.
I suppose the wisdom of God doesn't have to be logical according to scripture. But you are correct in pointing out the fact you raised with your question. I suppose he knew they'd be around until Jesus comes back and therefore he gave instructions so Corinthian's misues of the gifts could be corrected.
quote:
The context of what you quoted has nothing to do with tongues as they weren't an issue when Jesus was teaching.
Great answer in pointing out the obvious to refute GH's attempt to again misuse the scriptures to discredit tongues.
DR
_____________________________
Doctrine learned and not lived is lost.
Eyes closed to advice may still be open to example.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 4/13/2008 9:54:10 PM
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Godhead
Posts: 273
Joined: 1/28/2006
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But they were using the gifts at the time when He (Paul) wrote the letter. The fact is, no one has these gifts now. Why did Moses write so much about the patriarchs, the Hebrews being delivered by great miracles and the law, if they are not suppose to be around today. The Bible is a record of How God has brought about our redemption. That by them my may have hope. It is a record for us of Gods redemptive work.
For whatever things were written before were written for our learning, so that we through patience and comfort of the Scriptures might have hope.
(Rom 15:4)
_____________________________
The way the church is today, if any man come who is able to do the miraculous of any kind, he would have such influence over them as putty in the hands of a child.
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