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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 5/14/2008 11:49:07 AM
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Him4all
Posts: 424
Joined: 6/26/2007
From: Kansas
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Bill,
quote:
The Bible does not specifically state that they spoke other languages. It says that those listening each heard in their own language. The emphesis is on the hearing not the speaking.
I've heard that opinion before but I know of no spiritual "gift of hearing" especially for unbelievers. But there is the supernatural gift of "speaking in tongues/languages". And there are two kinds of languages noted in scripture. One is of earthly or of man (languages which are known to man) and the other language is of heaven/angels/spiritual (which aren't known to man). So I wouldn't say that Awaken isn't "wrong" as you did...I just believe she is only half right in her understanding of tongues.
quote:
In Acts 8 it does not say that they did not have the Holy Spirit but that the Holy Spirit was not yet fallen on them.
I think you're making more out of the word "fallen upon" than I personally believe is correct. Read the following in Acts 8 for when they "received" The Holy Spirit.
ACT 8:17 Then they laid their hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit. 18 Now when Simon saw that the Spirit was given through the laying on of the apostles' hands, he offered them money,
I think this scripture also makes it plain that they didn't 'get' The Holy Spirit when Jesus breathed on them.
ACT 1:4 And while staying with them he charged them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the promise of the Father, which, he said, "you heard from me, 5 for John baptized with water, but before many days you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit."
Also I hope you can see from the following verse Jesus wasn't/couldn't "give" them The Holy Spirit while he was still in their presence as you believe Joh 20 is saying.
JOH 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.
I would like to address your understanding of the following in the light of a different understanding.
quote:
In John 20:22 Jesus breathed on the disciples and said, "receive ye the Holy Ghost".
The Joh 20:22 scripture was speaking prophetically to the future. Jesus was speaking of the day of Pentecost and the word for "breathed" is 'to blow at or on' in the Greek. And on the day of Pentecost that's exactly what they heard...the 'blowing' of the "rushing mighty wind"...and then they "received" the Holy Spirit as it desended upon them as tongues of fire.
I hope this helps.
DR
_____________________________
Doctrine learned and not lived is lost.
Eyes closed to advice may still be open to example.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 5/14/2008 5:56:56 PM
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wacotton
Posts: 765
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: awaken
So you are saying you recieve the Holy Spirit Twice, once at salvation and once at Baptism?
Something like that.
When I was born again, there was no doubt that I was saved.
Yet 8 months later I was baptized with the Holy Spirit and could pray in tongues. The first is like drinking a glass of water (the water representing the Holy Spirit) and the second is like being immersed in a swimming pool.
_____________________________
Bill Cotton
2 Corinthians 3:6
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 5/14/2008 8:03:35 PM
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wacotton
Posts: 765
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Him4all
Bill,
quote:
The Bible does not specifically state that they spoke other languages. It says that those listening each heard in their own language. The emphesis is on the hearing not the speaking.
I've heard that opinion before but I know of no spiritual "gift of hearing" especially for unbelievers. But there is the supernatural gift of "speaking in tongues/languages". And there are two kinds of languages noted in scripture. One is of earthly or of man (languages which are known to man) and the other language is of heaven/angels/spiritual (which aren't known to man). So I wouldn't say that Awaken isn't "wrong" as you did...I just believe she is only half right in her understanding of tongues.
Did you forget about the supernatural gift of interpretation? Didn't God say that tongues were a sign to unbelievers? You say that they were speaking known languages that they had never learned which is why the others could understand them. I say that they spoke in unknown tongues and God allowed the hearers to each hear in their own language at the same time. Paul makes no mention of the gift of tongues being in known languages. He specifically states that no man understands them.
quote:
quote:
In Acts 8 it does not say that they did not have the Holy Spirit but that the Holy Spirit was not yet fallen on them.
I think you're making more out of the word "fallen upon" than I personally believe is correct. Read the following in Acts 8 for when they "received" The Holy Spirit.
ACT 8:17 Then they laid their hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit. 18 Now when Simon saw that the Spirit was given through the laying on of the apostles' hands, he offered them money,
This does not prove or disprove anything. We receive the Holy Spirit when we are born again and we also receive the Holy Spirit when we are baptized in the Holy Spirit. Also I personally have never heard of someone being saved by the laying on of hands. A person has to receive Christ into their hearts by faith. Also in Acts 8:16 it says, "they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus" which would indicate that they were already saved.
quote:
I think this scripture also makes it plain that they didn't 'get' The Holy Spirit when Jesus breathed on them.
ACT 1:4 And while staying with them he charged them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the promise of the Father, which, he said, "you heard from me, 5 for John baptized with water, but before many days you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit."
This verse is clearly speaking of the baptism with the Holy Spirit. What occured in John 20:22 was the new birth. They are two different experiences.
quote:
Also I hope you can see from the following verse Jesus wasn't/couldn't "give" them The Holy Spirit while he was still in their presence as you believe Joh 20 is saying.
JOH 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.
John 16:7 was before the Cross and before the resurrection. John 20:22 was after the Cross and it was the first day of the resurrection. Thus John 16:7 does not negate my understanding of John 20:22.
quote:
I would like to address your understanding of the following in the light of a different understanding.
quote:
In John 20:22 Jesus breathed on the disciples and said, "receive ye the Holy Ghost".
The Joh 20:22 scripture was speaking prophetically to the future. Jesus was speaking of the day of Pentecost and the word for "breathed" is 'to blow at or on' in the Greek. And on the day of Pentecost that's exactly what they heard...the 'blowing' of the "rushing mighty wind"...and then they "received" the Holy Spirit as it desended upon them as tongues of fire.
The tense for the Greek word translated as "receive" in John 20:22 is Aorist Imperative. The Aorist tense is past tense or when used in this manner with the imperative it is present tense.
When I was first saved and I asked about the baptism of the Holy Spirit, I was told that I already had the Holy Spirit. Later when I asked again they said, "did you ask for it" and I replied yes and they told me I had to receive it by faith. When I asked about tongues they showed me 1 Corinthians 12 where it says "do all speak with tongues" and said that not everyone got the same gift and I just accepted it. Many months later challenged me to seek God again about the baptism with the Holy Spirit so I did. The first thing the Lord showed me was John 20:22. Next he showed me that everyone I knew who could pray in tongues described the baptism with the Holy Spirit as a very definite experience that occured after they had been saved. Everyone who didn't pray in tongues did not.
Years after I had already been baptized with the Holy Spirit and could pray in tongues I learned that the context of 1 Corinthians 12 is all about Ministry and the gifts listed are ministry gifts not personal gifts. In other words the gifts listed are for ministering to others and not for our own personal relationship with God. So when Paul wrote "do all speak with tongues" he was referring to the ministry gift.
_____________________________
Bill Cotton
2 Corinthians 3:6
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 5/15/2008 11:28:54 AM
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Him4all
Posts: 424
Joined: 6/26/2007
From: Kansas
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Bill,
quote:
Did you forget about the supernatural gift of interpretation? The gifts of the Spirit are not gifts for unbelievers. And you just stated that "they heard in their own languages" so they weren't interpreting anything, they were hearing in their native tongue because the disciples spoke in tongues (unknown to the disciples but known tongues of man).
quote:
Paul makes no mention of the gift of tongues being in known languages. He specifically states that no man understands them.
Sure he does.
1CO 13:1 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, The only unknown tongue is the one your spirit prays and not the one The Holy Spirit uses in speaking through you to others when gifted to do so "as He wills"...not as you will. Do you pray in tongues only when The Spirit wills...or when you will? I do it when I will...just like scripture commands. My spirit's tongue is a separate manifestation from tongues of The Spirit.
quote:
I personally have never heard of someone being saved by the laying on of hands. A person has to receive Christ into their hearts by faith.
I'm not saying anyone was saved by the laying on of hands, so I'm not sure where you're coming from.
quote:
Also in Acts 8:16 it says, "they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus" which would indicate that they were already saved. That is exactly the point that I'm trying to make to you. They were saved by Phillip and they never received The Holy Spirit according to verse ACT 8:15 who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit; Now you may think they received The Holy Spirit when they already had The Holy Sprit...I don't. That isn't what this verse plainly says.
quote:
This verse is clearly speaking of the baptism with the Holy Spirit. What occured in John 20:22 was the new birth. They are two different experiences. What you just said is partly true. Your spirit was made new at rebirth but it certainly didn't become The Holy Spirit. Even Jesus still had his own human spirit 'before and after' he first received The Holy Spirit at John's baptism.
quote:
John 16:7 was before the Cross and before the resurrection. John 20:22 was after the Cross and it was the first day of the resurrection. Thus John 16:7 does not negate my understanding of John 20:22. I don't believe you're dealing correctly with the fact that 16:7 says "I will send" indicating Jesus wouldn't be there. If he was going to be there he would have said "I will give."
quote:
The tense for the Greek word translated as "receive" in John 20:22 is Aorist Imperative. The Aorist tense is past tense or when used in this manner with the imperative it is present tense.
You do error a bit here. The English word receive is in both verse 14 and 17. But they are two different Greek words completely. The first 'receive' is decomai, it is past tense and has to do with your spirit getting initially saved and born again. It literally means "has received" in verse 14. The Greek word for 'receive' in verse 17 is 'lambano' and it is a present progressive and it literally means "they obtained". What did they obtain? The Holy Spirit which they didn't have prior. Decomai is always used when scripture speaks of initial salvation (receiving the word) and lambano is always used with first receiving The Holy Spirit.
quote:
When I asked about tongues they showed me 1 Corinthians 12 where it says "do all speak with tongues" and said that not everyone got the same gift and I just accepted it. Now you're being inconsistent with your position. Remember saying chapter 12 was the 'ministry gifts' of The Spirit? 12 is not talking about prayer tongues from your spirit. When it comes to that tongue, Paul said he wished everyone "would" speak in in tongues...not "could". Many verses support 'all' praying in tongues.
I totally agree with you Bill that the chapter 12 gifts are for ministry to others. The personal prayer language isn't in chapter 12 for that reason. It is explained in chapter 14 under the catagory that includes all the tongues manifestations, and you must rightly divide that chapter to discern which tongue is being talked about in whatever verse.
Hope this helps,
DR
_____________________________
Doctrine learned and not lived is lost.
Eyes closed to advice may still be open to example.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 5/15/2008 11:49:59 AM
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awaken
Posts: 83
Joined: 1/11/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
The tense for the Greek word translated as "receive" in John 20:22 is Aorist Imperative. The Aorist tense is past tense or when used in this manner with the imperative it is present tense.
When I was first saved and I asked about the baptism of the Holy Spirit, I was told that I already had the Holy Spirit. Later when I asked again they said, "did you ask for it" and I replied yes and they told me I had to receive it by faith. When I asked about tongues they showed me 1 Corinthians 12 where it says "do all speak with tongues" and said that not everyone got the same gift and I just accepted it. Many months later challenged me to seek God again about the baptism with the Holy Spirit so I did. The first thing the Lord showed me was John 20:22. Next he showed me that everyone I knew who could pray in tongues described the baptism with the Holy Spirit as a very definite experience that occured after they had been saved. Everyone who didn't pray in tongues did not.
Years after I had already been baptized with the Holy Spirit and could pray in tongues I learned that the context of 1 Corinthians 12 is all about Ministry and the gifts listed are ministry gifts not personal gifts. In other words the gifts listed are for ministering to others and not for our own personal relationship with God. So when Paul wrote "do all speak with tongues" he was referring to the ministry gift.
This makes sense!
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 5/16/2008 6:34:32 PM
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wacotton
Posts: 765
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Him4all
Bill,
quote:
Did you forget about the supernatural gift of interpretation? The gifts of the Spirit are not gifts for unbelievers. And you just stated that "they heard in their own languages" so they weren't interpreting anything, they were hearing in their native tongue because the disciples spoke in tongues (unknown to the disciples but known tongues of man).
I was just trying to make a point. I believe the disciples spoke in unknown tongues and God allowed some to hear in their own language. I also believe that the reason that they marveled was not just because they heard someone in their own language but because more than one person heard the same person in their own language. Also I believe that God did not allow the mockers to understand anything which is why they accused them of being drunk and babling. God can do anything He wants. If he can speak through a donkey then I think He can handle letting a bunch of people understanding tongues in their own language.
quote:
quote:
Paul makes no mention of the gift of tongues being in known languages. He specifically states that no man understands them.
Sure he does.
1CO 13:1 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, The only unknown tongue is the one your spirit prays and not the one The Holy Spirit uses in speaking through you to others when gifted to do so "as He wills"...not as you will. Do you pray in tongues only when The Spirit wills...or when you will? I do it when I will...just like scripture commands. My spirit's tongue is a separate manifestation from tongues of The Spirit.
Do you really believe that your spirit can communicate with God without the Holy Spirit?
quote:
quote:
I personally have never heard of someone being saved by the laying on of hands. A person has to receive Christ into their hearts by faith.
I'm not saying anyone was saved by the laying on of hands, so I'm not sure where you're coming from.
The verse you quoted in Acts 8 stated that they received the Holy Ghost after the Apostles laid hands on them. I was pointing out that this is not the way salvation occurs.
quote:
quote:
Also in Acts 8:16 it says, "they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus" which would indicate that they were already saved. That is exactly the point that I'm trying to make to you. They were saved by Phillip and they never received The Holy Spirit according to verse ACT 8:15 who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit; Now you may think they received The Holy Spirit when they already had The Holy Sprit...I don't. That isn't what this verse plainly says.
quote:
This verse is clearly speaking of the baptism with the Holy Spirit. What occured in John 20:22 was the new birth. They are two different experiences. What you just said is partly true. Your spirit was made new at rebirth but it certainly didn't become The Holy Spirit. Even Jesus still had his own human spirit 'before and after' he first received The Holy Spirit at John's baptism.
One cannot be saved without the Holy Spirit. (see Romans 8:9)
quote:
quote:
John 16:7 was before the Cross and before the resurrection. John 20:22 was after the Cross and it was the first day of the resurrection. Thus John 16:7 does not negate my understanding of John 20:22. I don't believe you're dealing correctly with the fact that 16:7 says "I will send" indicating Jesus wouldn't be there. If he was going to be there he would have said "I will give."
In John 16:7 Jesus was speaking of the day of Pentecost when the Holy Spirit would be pour out upon all flesh as prophesied in Joel. John 20:22 was only for a handful of His closest disciples. Again they are two different events.
quote:
quote:
The tense for the Greek word translated as "receive" in John 20:22 is Aorist Imperative. The Aorist tense is past tense or when used in this manner with the imperative it is present tense.
You do error a bit here. The English word receive is in both verse 14 and 17. But they are two different Greek words completely. The first 'receive' is decomai, it is past tense and has to do with your spirit getting initially saved and born again. It literally means "has received" in verse 14. The Greek word for 'receive' in verse 17 is 'lambano' and it is a present progressive and it literally means "they obtained". What did they obtain? The Holy Spirit which they didn't have prior. Decomai is always used when scripture speaks of initial salvation (receiving the word) and lambano is always used with first receiving The Holy Spirit.
What are you talking about? I am talking about the word "receive" in John 20:22 which is Aorist Imperative.
John 20:14, 17 do not have the word receive at all. Even if they did that would not change what Jesus said in John 20:22.
_____________________________
Bill Cotton
2 Corinthians 3:6
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 5/16/2008 7:43:13 PM
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RubySparkles
Posts: 229
Joined: 4/18/2005
From: United Kingdom
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I'm sorry if this question was addressed on page 14 or something, but am I right in understanding that my spirit directly speaking to the Lord is a prayer tongue. The Lord using me to deliver a message (to someone who'll hopefully be able to translate) is another kind of tongue? Both are gifts?
The other day in church my Ma got a little emotional and started speaking quite loudly in tongues. When pastor asked if anyone had the translation, no-one did. So he got everyone to pray for about 10 minutes, laid hands on people and then asked again. A couple of people gave quite general explanations like 'the Lord is great and merciful'. One person said that the church had been going through a period of apathy (true) which was about to come to an end. I'm thinking, after reading some of these posts, that when no-one had an immediate translation, maybe it was just my Ma talking to the Lord.
_____________________________
Lord, all our success is because of what you have done, so give us peace.
Is 26:12
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 5/17/2008 6:31:36 PM
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Him4all
Posts: 424
Joined: 6/26/2007
From: Kansas
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Bill,
quote:
I believe the disciples spoke in unknown tongues and God allowed some to hear in their own language. I also believe that the reason that they marveled was not just because they heard someone in their own language but because more than one person heard the same person in their own language.
Like I said there is no gift of interpretation/hearing for unbelievers that we know of scripturally. The reason 'why they marveled' is because of what scripture tells us IMO.
ACT 2:7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
They were all amazed because they were uneducated Galilaeans and shouldn't have been able to speak these foreign languages "of men".
quote:
Also I believe that God did not allow the mockers to understand anything which is why they accused them of being drunk and babling. The reason they said they were drunk is because they didn't know these forign languages either...and they knew the dumb Galilileans didn't know foreign languages so they figured it was drunk talk.
quote:
If he can speak through a donkey then I think He can handle letting a bunch of people understanding tongues in their own language. I hope you aren't going to say the donkey was speaking in the gift of tongues and Balaam heard in his language are you. If you are then once again scripture supports my POV better I think.
2PE 2:16 but was rebuked for his own transgression; a dumb ass spoke with human voice and restrained the prophet's madness. Doesn't sound like spiritual tongues but the tongues of man...again. 
_____________________________
Doctrine learned and not lived is lost.
Eyes closed to advice may still be open to example.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 5/17/2008 7:20:53 PM
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Him4all
Posts: 424
Joined: 6/26/2007
From: Kansas
Status: offline
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Whoops I accidentally posted...Oh well,
quote:
One cannot be saved without the Holy Spirit. (see Romans 8:9) I never said you were saved without The Holy Spirit. I said your spirit doesn't become God's Spirit...The Holy Spirit. But scripture does say that your spirit is born of The Spirit.
JOH 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit(your's). So like I said you spirit doesn't become The Spirit when it gets born again.
It's two entirely different Sspirits.
ROM 8:16 it is the Spirit himself bearing witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
As far as your Rom 8:9 quote that's another verse which is confusing because translators capitalized words based upon their understanding which was simply not correct. Look at verse 9 and tell me which spirit did you get "of/from God" when your spirit was rebirthed? Verse 9 says it was the "spirit of Christ" and every other time the spirit of Christ is mentioned it is lower case as it should be. But maybe you think the spirit of Christ and The Holy Spirit are the same Sspirit. If you do then we are in different camps scripturally. But in Rom 8:9 they were simply inconsistent with their own interpretation and capitalizations IMO. Therefore we have confusion like this to wrestle with.
quote:
What are you talking about? I am talking about the word "receive" in John 20:22 which is Aorist Imperative.
John 20:14, 17 do not have the word receive at all. Even if they did that would not change what Jesus said in John 20:22.
My mistake. I thought you were talking about Acts 8 and not John 20. I missed that point. But my statement still stands. In John 20 the word was "lambano" and it carries with it a definition of a self prompted taking (eg. speaking in tongues ect.). And the apostles never did anything after Jesus said this in John 20. They obviously didn't have any spiritual power which is consistent with anyone who gets born again. As a matter of fact, Peter and the rest of them were so powerless and defeated that they went back to doing the thing they did before they ever met Jesus. They went back to fishing (Joh 21:3). So if Jesus gave them...(whatever you think???)...it didn't do them any good at all spiritually speaking. And if you are truly born anew then you have power to walk the Christian life just like everyone today who isn't Spirit baptized. And they didn't do anything, so I'll stand with my belief that it was prophetic.
quote:
In John 16:7 Jesus was speaking of the day of Pentecost when the Holy Spirit would be pour out upon all flesh as prophesied in Joel. John 20:22 was only for a handful of His closest disciples. Again they are two different events. Simply your view which is opinion based only, while mine is scripturally based.
RubySparkles,
quote:
am I right in understanding that my spirit directly speaking to the Lord is a prayer tongue. The Lord using me to deliver a message (to someone who'll hopefully be able to translate) is another kind of tongue? Both are gifts? Ruby, as far as I'm concerned you're 100% correct. Others here may disagree though. 
quote:
I'm thinking, after reading some of these posts, that when no-one had an immediate translation, maybe it was just my Ma talking to the Lord. Again, I agree. And I think that your pastor should have picked up on that a little sooner too. He should have just said, "If there is no interpretation than sister ??? must have just been a little zealous and spoke with her spiriutal tongue...but bless God at least she tried."
Scripture does say if two or three speak in a tongue and no one gives an interpretation...THEN be quiet. But how are you going to know if someone has the interpretation...or is willing to give it...untill after someone else has spoken in a tongue?
DR
_____________________________
Doctrine learned and not lived is lost.
Eyes closed to advice may still be open to example.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 5/19/2008 9:55:15 AM
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wacotton
Posts: 765
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Him4all
Whoops I accidentally posted...Oh well,
quote:
One cannot be saved without the Holy Spirit. (see Romans 8:9) I never said you were saved without The Holy Spirit. I said your spirit doesn't become God's Spirit...The Holy Spirit. But scripture does say that your spirit is born of The Spirit.
JOH 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit(your's). So like I said you spirit doesn't become The Spirit when it gets born again.
It's two entirely different Sspirits.
ROM 8:16 it is the Spirit himself bearing witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
I never said that our spirit becomes God's Spirit. What I am saying is that when a person is born again they receive the Holy Spirit. In Acts 8 it says the people were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus which would indicate that they were saved thus they already had the Holy Spirit in them.
quote:
As far as your Rom 8:9 quote that's another verse which is confusing because translators capitalized words based upon their understanding which was simply not correct. Look at verse 9 and tell me which spirit did you get "of/from God" when your spirit was rebirthed? Verse 9 says it was the "spirit of Christ" and every other time the spirit of Christ is mentioned it is lower case as it should be. But maybe you think the spirit of Christ and The Holy Spirit are the same Sspirit. If you do then we are in different camps scripturally. But in Rom 8:9 they were simply inconsistent with their own interpretation and capitalizations IMO. Therefore we have confusion like this to wrestle with.
The Spirit of Christ is the Holy Spirit. Jesus Christ is God in flesh. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God. There are not two spirits of God.
quote:
quote:
What are you talking about? I am talking about the word "receive" in John 20:22 which is Aorist Imperative.
John 20:14, 17 do not have the word receive at all. Even if they did that would not change what Jesus said in John 20:22.
My mistake. I thought you were talking about Acts 8 and not John 20. I missed that point. But my statement still stands. In John 20 the word was "lambano" and it carries with it a definition of a self prompted taking (eg. speaking in tongues ect.). And the apostles never did anything after Jesus said this in John 20. They obviously didn't have any spiritual power which is consistent with anyone who gets born again. As a matter of fact, Peter and the rest of them were so powerless and defeated that they went back to doing the thing they did before they ever met Jesus. They went back to fishing (Joh 21:3). So if Jesus gave them...(whatever you think???)...it didn't do them any good at all spiritually speaking. And if you are truly born anew then you have power to walk the Christian life just like everyone today who isn't Spirit baptized. And they didn't do anything, so I'll stand with my belief that it was prophetic.
quote:
In John 16:7 Jesus was speaking of the day of Pentecost when the Holy Spirit would be pour out upon all flesh as prophesied in Joel. John 20:22 was only for a handful of His closest disciples. Again they are two different events. Simply your view which is opinion based only, while mine is scripturally based.
Why do you ignore the tense of the word "receive" in John 20:22? The tense of the word makes it impossible to be referring to the future. Also the new birth is only the first step in our walk with God. Jesus told these disciples to wait for the baptism of the Holy Spirit which would come with power.
Your claim that your argument is scripurally base is simple your opinion also. I have given the scriptural evidence for my understanding but you have refused to hear. In John 20:22 Jesus breathed on the disciples and said receive the Holy Spirit. It is significant that Jesus breathed on them because this is very symbolic of the new birth. Also it is another indication that what Jesus commanded them occured at that time and not in the future.
_____________________________
Bill Cotton
2 Corinthians 3:6
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 5/19/2008 10:20:09 AM
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LBolt
Posts: 663
Joined: 11/30/2007
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With regard to speaking in tongues and the comment that they were unknown tongues and God just allowed them to understand in their own language...I was praying with a buddy on one occasion and heard him pray in Spanish! I toke Spanish in high school and a semester in college and English is my primary language. Yet I distinctly heard Spanish.
I believe the Bible is correct when they heard them speaking different languages not some unknown tongue that can be understood in any one own native tongue. As seems to be suggested.
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Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7,9
You mean there was grace in the Old Testament?!!!
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 5/19/2008 11:26:29 AM
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awaken
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Does anyone here understand every language in the world? How do we know that the ones speaking in tongues is not speaking another language? There are some countries that when they speak it sounds like babbling to me....but it is a known language. The UNKNOWN language is speaking of the one speaking not knowing(unknown) to him. So if I am speaking in tongues ( a language I do not know,understand) only God can understand all languages.
This to me takes a lot of faith...speaking in tongues...trusting that the Holy Spirit is praying God's perfect will. We can not please God without faith!
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 5/19/2008 11:42:08 AM
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JesKlu
Posts: 495
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Hello awaken!
I do believe that there are some believers who are given this gift of tongues. I am not denying its existence. But are you aware of the abuse of the gift of tongues? Are you aware that a lot of Christians in the charismatic/pentecostal churches fake it? If you are not, you really should look more closely and carefully.
Just a suggestion.
Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica
_____________________________
And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 5/19/2008 12:43:21 PM
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awaken
Posts: 83
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I believe there is faking done in every area of the Word of God. But we can not over look the truth because of the false. There are a lot of fake spirits, but there is the true one...Holy Spirit. There have been a lot of fake Christ...but there is only one Jesus Christ.
Some Tongues are faked, but there is a true manifestation of tongues and it is powerful...it edifies...it is of the Holy Spirit.
< Message edited by awaken -- 5/19/2008 12:50:49 PM >
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 5/19/2008 2:51:15 PM
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LBolt
Posts: 663
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Amen, Awaken! The unknown tongue is unknown to the one speaking. In my example above I was able to translate what he was saying. However if someone was there who spoke Swahili, unless he prayed in Swahili, he would not known what he was saying. That's my point.
To add to what Awaken said, it's for all believers today! It takes faith to believe. There is a tongue that pertains to prophesy that some may receive and not others, however we may all receive the gifts of tongues for personal edification.
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7,9
You mean there was grace in the Old Testament?!!!
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 5/19/2008 3:56:49 PM
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wacotton
Posts: 765
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
With regard to speaking in tongues and the comment that they were unknown tongues and God just allowed them to understand in their own language...I was praying with a buddy on one occasion and heard him pray in Spanish! I toke Spanish in high school and a semester in college and English is my primary language. Yet I distinctly heard Spanish.
I believe the Bible is correct when they heard them speaking different languages not some unknown tongue that can be understood in any one own native tongue. As seems to be suggested.
I don't doubt your experience but it doesn't prove what happened or didn't happen on Pentecost. God is not in a box and He can do things however he chooses. I take it that your friend didn't know spanish? Also what is the point of God having your friend pray in spanish in front of you?
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Bill Cotton
2 Corinthians 3:6
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 5/19/2008 3:59:41 PM
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wacotton
Posts: 765
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: awaken
Does anyone here understand every language in the world? How do we know that the ones speaking in tongues is not speaking another language? There are some countries that when they speak it sounds like babbling to me....but it is a known language. The UNKNOWN language is speaking of the one speaking not knowing(unknown) to him. So if I am speaking in tongues ( a language I do not know,understand) only God can understand all languages.
This to me takes a lot of faith...speaking in tongues...trusting that the Holy Spirit is praying God's perfect will. We can not please God without faith!
The scriptures state that there is at least one type of tongues that is not known to anyone.
1 Corinthians 14:2
For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
_____________________________
Bill Cotton
2 Corinthians 3:6
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 5/19/2008 4:06:13 PM
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wacotton
Posts: 765
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JesKlu
Hello awaken!
I do believe that there are some believers who are given this gift of tongues. I am not denying its existence. But are you aware of the abuse of the gift of tongues? Are you aware that a lot of Christians in the charismatic/pentecostal churches fake it? If you are not, you really should look more closely and carefully.
Just a suggestion.
Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica
This is a serious charge.
Who gets to decide what is legitimate and what is fake?
Who is going to judge a person's heart to say that they are faking it?
What would happen if one took a closer look at non-charismatic/pentecostal people?
I bet it would be easy to say a lot of them were faking their christianity also but that doesn't make it true.
_____________________________
Bill Cotton
2 Corinthians 3:6
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 5/19/2008 5:11:54 PM
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awaken
Posts: 83
Joined: 1/11/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: wacotton
quote:
ORIGINAL: awaken
Does anyone here understand every language in the world? How do we know that the ones speaking in tongues is not speaking another language? There are some countries that when they speak it sounds like babbling to me....but it is a known language. The UNKNOWN language is speaking of the one speaking not knowing(unknown) to him. So if I am speaking in tongues ( a language I do not know,understand) only God can understand all languages.
This to me takes a lot of faith...speaking in tongues...trusting that the Holy Spirit is praying God's perfect will. We can not please God without faith!
The scriptures state that there is at least one type of tongues that is not known to anyone.
1 Corinthians 14:2
For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
So is this tongue the tongue of angels?
It is still unknown to the one speaking.
< Message edited by awaken -- 5/19/2008 5:20:38 PM >
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 5/19/2008 5:20:44 PM
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JesKlu
Posts: 495
Joined: 4/16/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: wacotton
quote:
ORIGINAL: JesKlu
Hello awaken!
I do believe that there are some believers who are given this gift of tongues. I am not denying its existence. But are you aware of the abuse of the gift of tongues? Are you aware that a lot of Christians in the charismatic/pentecostal churches fake it? If you are n | | |
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