RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (Full Version)

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rileykins -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (3/2/2006 2:28:23 PM)

." What does Paul mean when he says "I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith ."

The faith that Paul speaks of having kept is nothing other then the gospel of the grace of God and the doctrines contained therein that was given specifically to him by revelation of the risen Lord Jesus Christ for us and to us in this dispensation of grace. These are just a few things that make up the good fight, finishing the race, keeping the faith….
Paul stood steadfast against the Judiazers which he would not give into for one minute. He stood firmly against those who wanted to corrupt believers from the simplicity that was theirs in Christ. He stood against those who taught it was necessary to observe Sabbaths and holy days and feasts and fasts. He stood steadfastly and never wavered once against those who wanted to tell believers that Jesus was not enough but that it was also necessary to follow the law. He stood steadfastly against anything that was contrary to the gospel of grace and salvation being…..by grace are ye saved through faith and that not of yourselves it is the gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast. Paul fought and stood against those who taught believers that after having begun in the Spirit they were to be made perfect by the law.

rileykins



GraceBro -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (3/2/2006 3:26:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rileykins
." What does Paul mean when he says "I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith ." Paul fought and stood against those who taught believers that after having begun in the Spirit they were to be made perfect by the law.
rileykins


You go girl!!!![sm=dance.gif] Don't stop preaching the Good News, Sis!!! And PuritanLady hit the nail on the head when she wrote:
quote:

To insist that WE, in and of ourselves, can DO anything is to negate Christ's power and what Grace actually IS.


Well said Ladies!!!

YBIC



unworthyseraphim -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (3/2/2006 4:07:02 PM)

Dear Gracebro,

Part of the difficulty in answering your question lies in the asumption which it is based on...an assumption that begs the question you are asking.

You start by saying, "If a believer can lose their salvation..." The assumption here is that a believer is in any definative sense "saved". Salvation is catagorized as a thing you get...a membership card or something, an entitlement, a favorable juridical status.

But if salvation cannot be properly objectified this way then it must be understood in another way, and thus the meaning of the initial sentence changes.

Orthodox do not accept this notion of salvation as a static event that you get...and having gotten it you are saved. Salvation for the Orthodox is cast in the paradigm of a journey, a pilgrimage from earth to heaven...salvation is the way that must be followed to become like the Savior. It is the path He laid out for us to travel in. So long as we are on the path we are being saved and little by little are being transformed to be more and more like Him. This progressive transformation over the course of our life...is the content of salavtion...for it is our very encorporation into and expression of Christ in us the Hope of Glory.

Protestants want to seperate Justification as a forensic event from Sanctification as progressively transformative abiding, but the Orthodox do not accept this and consider it an unwise innovatio. There is no seperation between the two for the Orthodox...they are the same event and experience, salvation is progressive and transformative and its progression is from glory to glory, and its transformation is unto the fullness of the measure of the stature of Christ.

So from this perspective one may cease from following the way...stray from the path of salvation and in the end be lost...one can also return to the path and continue in being saved. No one on the path is "saved" yet all on the path are "being saved". If we ever lose the intimate association with salvation as a return to health and regard it instead as a juridical status we then miss what the good news is all about and what the free gift is that is offered to whosoever will.



gracewalk -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (3/2/2006 5:03:46 PM)

Hi gracebro.. I finally got to get back here..

It's so sad to read what ________ believe.. You walk into a church, you adopt their particular persuasion and for ever more without question they are right and everyone else is wrong..

The false assumption is that a denominational teaching is THE TRUTH. Especially in light of the Word of God which it may be so contrary to. I suppose many would be hard pressed to address the original question apart from what their church teaches and that to me is too bad, really. It's frankly irrelevant. It is afterall the opinions of men not much different than what any of us post here. To make it equivelent to biblical revelation to me is heresy. IMO.

I was thinking today of Pauls ongoing admonishments in Corinthians, and reading chapter 6 of first Corinthians.

1 Cor 6:9 ¶ Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
nor thieves, nor {the} covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
1 Cor 6:11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. ¶ All things are lawful for me, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be mastered by anything.

It seems to me, and in this case he is definately speaking to the saints in Corinth, that many of them were or had been dabbling in things they had previously left behind. Clearly he does not imply this is still their identity as he refers to examples of the lost.

His argument is clear.. in light of the fact you stand by identity in Christ as a justified, sanctified saint sealed with the Spirit how is it you are engaging in such deeds. What the church is being disciplined for does not undo the one time act of salvation. And any saint today is just as capable of slipping yet without endangering his new identity.

One does not get born again, simply to be unborn again. One is not redeemed simply to be unredeemed.

We stand in our redemption.

1 Cor 1:30 But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption,

Eph 1:7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace

Eph 1:14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of {God's own} possession, to the praise of His glory.

Eph 4:30 Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Col 1:14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

Acts 20:32 "And now I commend you to God and to the word of His grace, which is able to build {you} up and to give {you} the inheritance among all those who are sanctified.

Acts 26:18 to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.'

Rom 6:22 But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life.

1 Cor 1:2 ¶ To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their {Lord} and ours:

Heb 2:11 For both He who sanctifies and those who are sanctified are all from one {Father;} for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren,

Heb 10:10 By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Heb 10:14 For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.

Our "right standing" is His work.. not ours..

There is no earthly benchmarking system we can establish that we can achieve perfection apart from Christ. Creating church institutions to plug the holes in the dam are nothing more than that. The implication is clear that ultimately our salvation is based on a system of works. One can call it a jouney but in any event the journey is an accumulation of our efforts in order to stand justified one day. That flies in the face of biblical justification.. I am trying not to interject too much of myself here honestly.. because the lofty speach of many is meaningless. And I feel the Word of God is quite clear, we can either choose to allow the Spirit to reveal truth to us in humbleness or substitute it with institutinalized mans opinion and speak in grand platitudes.

anyway.. it will be interesting to see if some spend more time sharing the Word with us than parsing others critically in just how wrong they are.. I'd much rather read myself, a biblical case for what one believes..rather than see countless post of why everyone else is wrong.. line by line.. which I fear is what this thread like many others may turn into.

later
YBIC



GraceBro -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (3/2/2006 5:55:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gracewalk
Our "right standing" is His work.. not ours..
The implication is clear that ultimately our salvation is based on a system of works. One can call it a journey but in any event the journey is an accumulation of our efforts in order to stand justified one day. That flies in the face of biblical justification..
later
YBIC


I have to say that I am inclined to agree with gracewalk and posts like his. The first thing that comes to mind is that if we have anything to do with our salvation, whether it is keeping it or continually trying to attain it, we would have to throw out passages like Ephesians 2:8-9 and Galatians 3:1-3.

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. " Ephesians 2:8-9

"You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:1-3

If we had a part in our salvation why would Paul separate grace and faith from works in Ephesians? Why would he call Galatian believers fools for acting as though lawkeeping and human effort played a role in their salvation? Personally, I think "following a path" to salvation is code for human effort, lawkeeping and works. Whereas, believers are told to enter the Sabbath rest; resting from our works because Christ has done it all. Failing to rest from our works is disobedience not the other way around.

"..for anyone who enters God's rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from his. Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience." Hebrews 4:10-11

Thanks and God Bless



cassian -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (3/2/2006 8:19:16 PM)

gracewalk,

quote:

anyway.. it will be interesting to see if some spend more time sharing the Word with us than parsing others critically in just how wrong they are.. I'd much rather read myself, a biblical case for what one believes..


Well, how about taking this sampling. I would like to know what group is being referenced here if they are not either unbelievers or believers. From what you have been saying, along with some others, these texts apply to some other group, but I am at a complete loss as to who they might be? Enlighten me.

Matthew 24:13 - "But he who endures to the end shall be saved.
Mark 13:13 - “All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.”
Luke 9: 62 - But Jesus said to him, "No one, having put his hand to the plow, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God."

Luke 12:45,46 - "But if that servant says in his heart, 'My master is delaying his coming,' and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and be drunk, the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the unbelievers."

Acts 20:28-31- (29)"For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. (30) some will be from their own number....

1 Timothy 1:5-7 - ... sincere faith, from which some, having strayed, have turned aside to idle

1 Timothy 4:1 - Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons.

1 Timothy 5:12 - Having condemnation because they have cast off their first faith

You don't need to explain each one. They are all referencing the very same group. But I need to know to whom they are being directed based on your view and what you have explained so far.



cassian -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (3/2/2006 8:34:49 PM)

GraceBro,

quote:

I have to say that I am inclined to agree with gracewalk and posts like his. The first thing that comes to mind is that if we have anything to do with our salvation, whether it is keeping it or continually trying to attain it, we would have to throw out passages like Ephesians 2:8-9 and Galatians 3:1-3.


You may need to throw them out. But what I have been saying all along, these verses are not even being addressed respective of OSAS. They have absolutely nothing to do with these verses. We are not speaking about the gift in any respective.
We are speaking about man's response to that Gift. Maybe you need to explain why you seem to want or need to go back to the Gift all the time as if this is what we are saying and addressing.
We, mankind, cannot do what Christ accomplished. Man has never been able to even contemplate that work, let alone attempt it. So why the constant reference to the Work of Christ regarding the topic of OSAS?



cassian -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (3/2/2006 8:53:32 PM)

gracewalk,

quote:

The false assumption is that a denominational teaching is THE TRUTH. Especially in light of the Word of God which it may be so contrary to.
Define what the difference would be between a denomination or a person who says something is Truth?
In your phrase above, who are you presumming is determining what the Gospel says?

I suppose many would be hard pressed to address the original question apart from what their church teaches and that to me is too bad, really But conversesly I see it also as hard pressed for any individual to determine what it means apart from the context and content from which it is derived.

quote:

. It's frankly irrelevant. It is afterall the opinions of men not much different than what any of us post here. To make it equivelent to biblical revelation to me is heresy. IMO.
So, who are you implying as having the vision to have an infallible opinion that might be the Truth? And what criteria would this person need in order to show that he might be better than any other man on this earth?
Or am I naive to think that Truth actually exists. That mankind is just fumbling, bumbliing along and just hoping that what they think is truth is truth. That no one possesses it, and we actually have no sure knowledge nor assurance that it exists in any shape or form. The Moslems have just as good chance of getting it right as those who call themselves christians, then the Mormons who also claim much the same basis.
Could you explain these questions and suppositions?



gracewalk -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (3/2/2006 10:27:22 PM)

Hi gracebro.. cassian is on my block list so I can't see his post nor do I desire to..

However based on what you relayed to me, thanks by the way' I will leave my last post on this thread as I like you have no desire to debate this issue.. beside I feel I have brought enough scripture to the table to make the point.. I am not peddling any churches position..

John 19:30 Therefore when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, "It is finished!" And He bowed His head and gave up His spirit.

Rom 6:8 ¶ Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him. For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.

Heb 7:25 Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them. For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens; who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself.

Heb 9:11 ¶ But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation; and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.

Heb 9:26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

Heb 9:28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.

Heb 10:10 By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

1 Pet 3:18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;

It's a done deal for those who are in Christ.. those who wish to add to the work only Christ could do will have an opportunity to explain that soon enough..

later
YBIC



onelordofall -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (3/2/2006 10:29:57 PM)

Rileykins,

quote:

Paul stood steadfast against the Judiazers which he would not give into for one minute. He stood firmly against those who wanted to corrupt believers from the simplicity that was theirs in Christ. He stood against those who taught it was necessary to observe Sabbaths and holy days and feasts and fasts. He stood steadfastly and never wavered once against those who wanted to tell believers that Jesus was not enough but that it was also necessary to follow the law. He stood steadfastly against anything that was contrary to the gospel of grace and salvation being…..by grace are ye saved through faith and that not of yourselves it is the gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast. Paul fought and stood against those who taught believers that after having begun in the Spirit they were to be made perfect by the law.


Curious what you make of Acts 16: 3:

and Paul wanted him (Timothy) to come along with him. On account of the Jews of that region, Paul had him circumcised, for they all knew that his father was a Greek.

Paul, once again, becoming everything to all in order to "save" a few? Interesting, his choice of words in 1Cor. 9:22 and 10:33, no? It appears St. Paul ascribed some worth to his own "work" for the Kingdom. The work of those in Christ toward the furtherance of His Kingdom and our Christlikeness is His will.

Peace,

Michael



GraceBro -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (3/2/2006 11:40:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gracewalk
It's a done deal for those who are in Christ.. those who wish to add to the work only Christ could do will have an opportunity to explain that soon enough..


Hi gracewalk, I have a couple of individuals on my block list as well. I think you know who they are. [;)] I have to admit that I hesitate getting on certain threads. Many of them seem to be endless debates where nobody is willing to yield. I have even endured personal attacks. Like you, I have posted scripture as much as possible hoping that the saint out there searching for encouragement and comfort in regards to their salvation will find it. And also to counteract alot of unbiblical positions being passed off as foundational to christianity. There is nothing hopeful, joyful or assuring in the idea that I have to maintain or could possibly walk away from my salvation.

True Believers are kept by God:

"Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade—kept in heaven for you, who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time." 1 Peter 1:3-5

Those who fall away were never believers to begin with:

"They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us." 1 John 2:19

Those who endure are those who put faith in the Son of God:

"Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well. This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands. This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome, for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God." 1 John 5:1-5

Jesus did for us what we can't do for ouselves. All we have to do is believe in Him. Why that is so hard for individuals to accept is beyond me. The offer of eternal life is a gift from God to anyone and everyone willing to accept it. The only thing we could earn is death! You don't earn a gift, but you can reject it. And this gift is eternal. Guaranteed!

"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 6:23

Grace and Peace



Dandirom -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (3/3/2006 2:10:59 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: PuritanLady

quote:

ORIGINAL: Justifiedbyfaith

Hang in there. Finish the race. After we are saved we then play a part in this too.

"For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end..."

Hebrews 3:14

See Also: John 15 (The Vine and The Branches)


Yes...but we do not perservere alone...HE carries us to the end.

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

On the Vine issue...are there not those in the church that are spiritually dead (ie, never saved to begin with)? They have deceived themselves into thinking they are saved because they are "part of" the church/vine...but as they are dead, they will be cut off/revealed.


The vine is not the Church but Christ himself. So in effect, you're saying that Christ allows someone to be part of Himself, the True Vine, even when that person didn't really accept Him. And He is telling us to remain in Him because if we don't remain we will be cut off - how can you be told to remain if you never belonged in the first place?



Dandirom -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (3/3/2006 2:21:17 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GraceBro

quote:

ORIGINAL: rileykins
." What does Paul mean when he says "I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith ." Paul fought and stood against those who taught believers that after having begun in the Spirit they were to be made perfect by the law.
rileykins


You go girl!!!![sm=dance.gif] Don't stop preaching the Good News, Sis!!! And PuritanLady hit the nail on the head when she wrote:
quote:

To insist that WE, in and of ourselves, can DO anything is to negate Christ's power and what Grace actually IS.


Well said Ladies!!!

YBIC



So obedience is now null and void? Christ's conditions all over the Bible in NO WAY negate His power or His Grace. To obey Him does not mean you are working for forgiveness, does it? Paul himself wrote, 'Through Him and for His name's sake, WE RECEIVED GRACE AND APOSTLESHIP to call people from among all the Gentiles TO THE OBEDIENCE THAT COMES FROM FAITH.' God did give a condition to remain in His word - how can He be Lord if we are still submitting to sin? In the same chapter that Paul states over and over that we are now under Grace and NOT under the law he write, 'Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness'. Does obedience to His word nullify His grace?



bygraceiamsaved -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (3/3/2006 4:31:08 AM)

Obedience is the result of our salvation, not the cause. As for the verses posted, I would ask why do you post just part of a verse cassian? Look at the entire chapter and other chapters. Reconcile the verses we have given with the verses you have given as both are true. If you can't reconcile them, then your interpretation of them is wrong as the Bible cannot and does not contradict itself.



Ps103 -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (3/3/2006 9:00:19 AM)

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1lightseeker -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (3/3/2006 10:06:26 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cassian

GraceBro,

quote:

I have to say that I am inclined to agree with gracewalk and posts like his. The first thing that comes to mind is that if we have anything to do with our salvation, whether it is keeping it or continually trying to attain it, we would have to throw out passages like Ephesians 2:8-9 and Galatians 3:1-3.


You may need to throw them out. But what I have been saying all along, these verses are not even being addressed respective of OSAS. They have absolutely nothing to do with these verses. We are not speaking about the gift in any respective.
We are speaking about man's response to that Gift. Maybe you need to explain why you seem to want or need to go back to the Gift all the time as if this is what we are saying and addressing.
We, mankind, cannot do what Christ accomplished. Man has never been able to even contemplate that work, let alone attempt it. So why the constant reference to the Work of Christ regarding the topic of OSAS?


Dear Cassian,

I'm wondering if your first sentence is a typo, and that you meant, "You may not need to throw them out." Or if it isn't what you mean, cuz folks round here get kinda rattled by the idea of throwin out part of the Bible.



GraceBro -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (3/3/2006 10:45:04 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bygraceiamsaved
Obedience is the result of our salvation, not the cause.

Amen! We love God because He first loved us and gave His Son for us. There is a difference between righteous works produced in and through us by the Holy Spirit and trying to produce them in the energy of our own flesh. Of course determining that is between the individual and God.

"It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. Therefore, as it is written: "Let him who boasts boast in the Lord." 1 Corinthians 1:30-31

Grace and Peace



rileykins -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (3/3/2006 11:42:08 AM)

Good questions GraceBro, I'm still waiting to hear the answers from those who are trying to maintain their salvation, or who are trying to obtain it. You wont' get any answers so I'll help it along....

Let me quess. To maintain your salvation you must endure to the end of the Tribulation, (matt.24) you must keep short accounts of your sins by constantly repenting and confessing, you must observe the Sabbath, obey the ten commandments, oh and lets not forget tithing. Have I left anything out? How about ....observe "holy days" and fast days, eat only fish on Friday's?

Salvation is a process they say, it's walking a certain path and staying on that path only those who say this are very reluctant to tell you exactly what walking this so called path entails. Good grief! If my salvation hinges on my successfully walking a certain path then wouldn't I want to know what that path is and what I have to do to stay on this path? Please tell me? what must I do to stay on the path to salvation? why are you keeping this very vital information from me?!!

Salvation is not a path. It's a person. " I am the way, the truth and the life, no man comes unto the Father but by me". God didn't give us a path to follow, HE GAVE US HIS SON, and in Him is eternal life. And how is one to receive this life He came to give us?
"For by grace are ye saved through faith and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyman should boast"

What part of GIFT do they not understand?

rileykins



quote:

ORIGINAL: GraceBro

Okay, I have some questions:

1. If a believer can lose their salvation what are the works or acts required to maintain it?

2. How is a believer to know that they are meeting these requirements?

YBIC



GraceBro -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (3/3/2006 12:12:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rileykins

Good questions GraceBro, I'm still waiting to hear the answers from those who are trying to maintain their salvation, or who are trying to obtain it. You wont' get any answers so I'll help it along....

Let me quess. To maintain your salvation you must endure to the end of the Tribulation, (matt.24) you must keep short accounts of your sins by constantly repenting and confessing, you must observe the Sabbath, obey the ten commandments, oh and lets not forget tithing. Have I left anything out? How about ....observe "holy days" and fast days, eat only fish on Friday's?

Salvation is a process they say, it's walking a certain path and staying on that path only those who say this are very reluctant to tell you exactly what walking this so called path entails. Good grief! If my salvation hinges on my successfully walking a certain path then wouldn't I want to know what that path is and what I have to do to stay on this path? Please tell me? what must I do to stay on the path to salvation? why are you keeping this very vital information from me?!!

Salvation is not a path. It's a person. " I am the way, the truth and the life, no man comes unto the Father but by me". God didn't give us a path to follow, HE GAVE US HIS SON, and in Him is eternal life. And how is one to receive this life He came to give us?
"For by grace are ye saved through faith and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyman should boast"

What part of GIFT do they not understand?

rileykins


AMEN!!! PREACH SISTER, PREACH!! ERROR BINDS, BUT TRUTHS SETS US FREE!!! [sm=angel.gif][sm=dance.gif]

"To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." John 8;31-32

God Bless you, rileykins!!!



1lightseeker -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (3/3/2006 12:41:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rileykins
quote:

ORIGINAL: GraceBro

Okay, I have some questions:

1. If a believer can lose their salvation what are the works or acts required to maintain it?

2. How is a believer to know that they are meeting these requirements?

YBIC


1. Jesus said, if any man come after me, let him deny himself.
Jesus said, unless you feed and clothe strangers, orphans, and widows you will be sent to the place of torment.
He said if you do not eat His flesh and drink His blood, you have no part in Him.
He said that you have to sell all that you have to come and follow Him.

2. It's not that we believe we've arrived, it's about focusing on Christ and His life, and second by second entrusting ourselves to Him to equip us to live appropriately as members of His Kingdom, to bring Him glory. It's constantly coming to Him, knowing that we fail, confessing, praying for His healing, and resting in His love and mercy which will conform us to His likeness if we stay in His presence.

quote:

Good questions GraceBro, I'm still waiting to hear the answers from those who are trying to maintain their salvation, or who are trying to obtain it. You wont' get any answers so I'll help it along....


This comes across sort of mean-spirited.

quote:

Let me quess. To maintain your salvation you must endure to the end of the Tribulation, (matt.24) you must keep short accounts of your sins by constantly repenting and confessing, you must observe the Sabbath, obey the ten commandments, oh and lets not forget tithing. Have I left anything out? How about ....observe "holy days" and fast days, eat only fish on Friday's?


Orthodox don't eat any meat or dairy on Wednesdays and Fridays. Observing Christ's commands does not earn points, that if accumulated earn us salvation. Obedience is part of the process of removing the sins that cloud our vision so that we can't see Christ as well. By repenting and obeying - being faithful, we learn to see, know, and please our Beloved better. Sin brings anxiety which will either cause us to stop, or to seek other destructive means to pacify ourselves. Obedience/faithfulness brings peace and union with God's will. "Well done, my good and faithful servant."

quote:

what must I do to stay on the path to salvation? why are you keeping this very vital information from me?!!


Abide in the Kingdom of Heaven. In the light of His glory, we become more aware of our dirty sins and seek cleansing. Some don't want to get rid of their sins so they get out of the light and choose darkness. Lord have mercy on their souls.

quote:

Salvation is not a path. It's a person. " I am the way, the truth and the life, no man comes unto the Father but by me". God didn't give us a path to follow, HE GAVE US HIS SON, and in Him is eternal life. And how is one to receive this life He came to give us?
"For by grace are ye saved through faith and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyman should boast"


Interesting that the person calls Himself the Way. That means path. A lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path. We get there one step at a time.



ctipton -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (3/3/2006 1:05:09 PM)

quote:



quote:

Salvation is not a path. It's a person. " I am the way, the truth and the life, no man comes unto the Father but by me". God didn't give us a path to follow, HE GAVE US HIS SON, and in Him is eternal life. And how is one to receive this life He came to give us?
"For by grace are ye saved through faith and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyman should boast"

Interesting that the person calls Himself the Way. That means path. A lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path. We get there one step at a time.


Seems to me that you guys are blending Justification and Sanctification together. Justification is based on grace and establishes a relationship, a covenant. This has a definite beginning and relieves the covenant party from exclusion from the relationship.

The sanctification is an ongoing process by which we become more and more in His likeness.

Just my .02



1lightseeker -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (3/3/2006 1:20:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ctipton

Seems to me that you guys are blending Justification and Sanctification together. Justification is based on grace and establishes a relationship, a covenant. This has a definite beginning and relieves the covenant party from exclusion from the relationship.

The sanctification is an ongoing process by which we become more and more in His likeness.

Just my .02


You're right. Our view of salvation is more of a blending of the two. We have a different slant on justification as well, but you probably agree that it involves a commitment to Christ, the grace of His forgiveness, and being born again.

As a newborn baby needs nourishment and care to live and grow, so does our "new man". We see it more as an organic process, and not punishment/merit -oriented.



GraceBro -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (3/3/2006 1:39:06 PM)

Jesus Christ, our High Priest, already meets our needs. In Him, we are holy, blameless, forgiven, pure, sanctified, exalted and perfect forever. There is nothing more we can do. We definitely mature in our understanding of what we already have, but we don't get anymore sanctified, righteous, holy, forgiven, blameless, etc. We already have been given everything we need for life and godliness (2 Peter 1:3). There is no more to get.

In Christ we are...

Holy
"And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all." Hebrews 10:10

Blameless
"For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight." Ephesians 1:4

"Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus," Romans 8:1

Pure
"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin." 1 John 1:7

Forgiven
"I write to you, dear children, because your sins have been forgiven on account of his name." 1 John 2:12

Set Apart From Sinners (Sanctified)
"And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God." 1 Corinthians 6:11

Exalted Above the Heavens
"And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus," Ephesians 2:6

Perfect Forever
"For by that one offering he perfected forever all those whom he is making holy." Hebrews 10:14

...and much, much more!

A fellow brother in Christ said it best. "There are those who sincerely try to live a life they do not have, substituting religion for God, Christianity for Christ, and their own noble endeavors for the energy, joy, and power of the Holy Spirit. In the absence of reality, they can only grasp at ritual, stubbornly defending the latter in the absence of the former, lest they be found with neither! There are those who have a life they never live. They have come to Christ and thanked Him only for what He did, but do not live in the power of who He is. Between the Jesus who was and the Jesus who will be they live in a spiritual vacuum, trying with no little zeal to live for Christ a life that only He can live in and through them, perpetually begging for what in Him they already have!" Amen!

God Bless Saints! I am out of here. I am sure I will see you on another thread!



rileykins -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (3/3/2006 2:03:42 PM)

O.k. so let me see if I understand this correctly. In order for someone to be saved, or to stay on the path to salvation they must....

deny themselves
crucify themselves daily
they must feed the poor
clothe strangers, orphans and widows
and if they don't do these things they will be sent to Hell?
What else must one do to be saved or stay on the path of salvation?
they must also...
stay in His presense
sell all that they have

If one does all these things then they will have acheived eternal life? If they keep on doing all these things then they will stay on the path to salvation? How often must one do these things? Everyday, once in awhile?
How does one crucify ones self daily and how will they know if they've crucifed themselves sufficiently enough to rate going to Heaven? Sell all that one has? Have you sold ALL that you have?

I wasn't picking on any one particular religion. It doens't matter to me what religion it is, if it preaches that salvation isn't by grace through faith apart from works, then it ain't gospel. And I don't care what religion says otherwise.

If that's "mean spirited", oh, well.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves:i t is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.


rileykins


quote:

ORIGINAL: 1lightseeker

quote:

ORIGINAL: rileykins
quote:

ORIGINAL: GraceBro

Okay, I have some questions:

1. If a believer can lose their salvation what are the works or acts required to maintain it?

2. How is a believer to know that they are meeting these requirements?

YBIC


1. Jesus said, if any man come after me, let him deny himself.
Jesus said, unless you feed and clothe strangers, orphans, and widows you will be sent to the place of torment.
He said if you do not eat His flesh and drink His blood, you have no part in Him.
He said that you have to sell all that you have to come and follow Him.

2. It's not that we believe we've arrived, it's about focusing on Christ and His life, and second by second entrusting ourselves to Him to equip us to live appropriately as members of His Kingdom, to bring Him glory. It's constantly coming to Him, knowing that we fail, confessing, praying for His healing, and resting in His love and mercy which will conform us to His likeness if we stay in His presence.

quote:

Good questions GraceBro, I'm still waiting to hear the answers from those who are trying to maintain their salvation, or who are trying to obtain it. You wont' get any answers so I'll help it along....


This comes across sort of mean-spirited.



1lightseeker -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (3/3/2006 2:06:56 PM)

Re: Gracebro's post,

As far as postitional vs. actual righteousness goes, see: http://forums.crosswalk.com/m_992241/mpage_1/tm.htm#992768

As far as the brother's quote, that's a pretty judgemental statement against the people who get benefit from their routine of worship. Who is he to say they don't have Christ in reality? If he checked and was consistent, they probably made thier sinner's prayer, and are thus once saved, always saved. Yall act as if placing any importance on living an obedient, faithful, and disciplined life is the unforgiveable sin and proves they don't have Christ in the first place. Makes no sense to me.



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