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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/8/2006 10:54:10 AM
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rileykins
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Hi 1lightseeker
"One think I've noticed lately is that a lot of people seem to believe that what Jesus said in the gospels, and the life the Apostles lived in Acts is antique, and we belong to a different age."
I think we do belong to a different age...the age, or dispensation or administration of grace....
For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
God has temporarily interrupted his prophetic program and his dealings with the nation Israel and is now working in this world through the body of Christ, that one new man in which there is neither Jew nor Gentile with the message of the gospel of grace. This age of grace or the church age as it is sometimes called ends with the rapture and then God will turn his attention once again to Isreal and fulfill all of His promises to her.
To follow the Lord Jesus Christ today, is to follow Paul and the instructions that God has given to us through through him, in this present dispensation of grace. The kingdom program which the Lord outlined in the gospels is not in effect today. That is yet future. So if you want to know what God's will for us today as members of the body of Christ is, you have to go to Paul, he is our apostle.
rileykins
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/8/2006 10:54:33 AM
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facedown
Posts: 977
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quote:
It makes no difference whether you believe or not. Is like someone paying the credit card debts of everyone. It makes no difference whether you believe or not. Your debt is gone.
ah, but your analogy declares that it is indeed essential to "believe" it. else, what your promoting is full-fledged universalism <period>
this is not to take away from this mystery, for surely, scripture reveals that God is drawing all towards Him, and that every knee shall bow and tongue confess. indeed - Christ is all, Christ is in all.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/8/2006 11:18:50 AM
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walterquez
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Well, of course I believe you need to believe. But our believing does not saves us from death and sin. Christ already got rid of it 2000 years ago.
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For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/8/2006 12:12:59 PM
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unworthyseraphim
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Amen, lightseeker.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/8/2006 1:26:16 PM
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facedown
Posts: 977
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quote:
But our believing does not saves us from death and sin.
that's not what Scipture testifies to in the least bit, and to suggest as much is not even close to the border of absurd
quote:
Christ already got rid of it 2000 years ago.
Sin-Death? Where do you live?
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/8/2006 1:50:26 PM
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walterquez
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facedown, I don't have time to spend with people who are immature. I don't appreciate your insults.
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St. Athanasius the Great
For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/8/2006 2:03:39 PM
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1lightseeker
Posts: 504
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rileykins
Hi 1lightseeker
"One think I've noticed lately is that a lot of people seem to believe that what Jesus said in the gospels, and the life the Apostles lived in Acts is antique, and we belong to a different age."
I think we do belong to a different age...the age, or dispensation or administration of grace....
For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
God has temporarily interrupted his prophetic program and his dealings with the nation Israel and is now working in this world through the body of Christ, that one new man in which there is neither Jew nor Gentile with the message of the gospel of grace. This age of grace or the church age as it is sometimes called ends with the rapture and then God will turn his attention once again to Isreal and fulfill all of His promises to her.
To follow the Lord Jesus Christ today, is to follow Paul and the instructions that God has given to us through through him, in this present dispensation of grace. The kingdom program which the Lord outlined in the gospels is not in effect today. That is yet future. So if you want to know what God's will for us today as members of the body of Christ is, you have to go to Paul, he is our apostle.
Hello Rileykins,
I know there's a group called Dispensationalists, and I'm guessing your views are along those lines?
My understanding is that the Church Age began at Pentecost. One difference in this age and the Old Testament is that through the Holy Spirit, the Church has the power to fulfill the laws of God, and not be crushed by them. We now have the power to live the life that Christ describes in the gospel which was so elusive before Pentecost. Paul's life bears this out, however humbly he describes it.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/8/2006 2:13:27 PM
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facedown
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my buddy has this to say, regarding "absurd"
quote:
1 : ridiculously unreasonable, unsound, or incongruous
2 : having no rational or orderly relationship to human life : MEANINGLESS; also : lacking order or value
3 : dealing with the absurd or with absurdism
Not only, is the use of such a word *not* immature, it was most appropriate, given my understanding of what you're attempting to communicate.
The mature thing to do, IMHO, if I was wrong, would be to suggest why it was an unreasonable adjective. I didn't call you absurd, I said, what you wrote was absurd.
Clearly, Scripture teaches us that set before us (by the LORD) is life (and prosperity) and death (and destruction), the choice is indeed something made by each person. Those who believe, will not perish, but have everlasting life. Those who return to God, God returns. To the pure, the pureness of God is revealed. Those who abide in Christ, have Christ within-it's the mystery of ages indeed.
Therefore, to suggest (as you most certianly have) that our belief in Christ has *nothing* to do with anything, because the "debt is gone" (etc)and it "makes no difference if you believe or not", is IMHO not in keeping with the ways and teachings of Jesus.
Again, this isn't to take away from the magintude of the lessons from passages such as the priestly blessing (that it's the LORD who blesses, keeps, and provides peace)
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/8/2006 2:51:18 PM
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walterquez
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quote:
ORIGINAL: facedownquote:
Christ already got rid of it 2000 years ago.
Sin-Death? Where do you live? Bold is mine. Have a nice day.
_____________________________
St. Athanasius the Great
For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/8/2006 4:07:56 PM
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unworthyseraphim
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I think what walter is saying is that Christ broke the power of sin and death 2000 years ago. He led captivity captive. That is why there will be a general resurrection. This rescue comes to all men regardless of if or what they believe. This aspect of Christ's work is universal; it was once and for all.
He is not saying our belief doesn't matter...just that it doesn't matter in the particular context which he was addressing.
Since the content of our salvation is to be found ultimately in the image and likeness of Christ, a process which takes a lifetime for most of us, and pert-near for the rest our salvation then does depend upon us. We may cooperate with God's grace or walk contrary to it. One advances us little by little from glory to glory the other leads to darkness and perdition, the second death.
Walter was trying to refocus the discussion a bit more towards salvation's content and our responsibility to run the race as atheletes and not as couch potatoes, and the loosing of the prize through our own sloth and distraction.
His comment was chosen both for its theological comment and its usefulness as an attention getter.
Walter may correct me if I have mistaken his intent or meaning.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/8/2006 4:54:11 PM
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facedown
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UWS - thanks for what you shared. i don't disagree much with what you've communicated. it's totally not what i get from walter's writings; however, he seems to think you got it right.
i'm not really down with calvinism in general, for they too, in their pursuit to focus on God, don't allow for mystery, negative theology, or any other finer points one sees on this side of the stained-glass
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/8/2006 6:58:09 PM
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johnkw
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quote:
ORIGINAL: unworthyseraphim
I think what walter is saying is that Christ broke the power of sin and death 2000 years ago. He led captivity captive. That is why there will be a general resurrection. This rescue comes to all men regardless of if or what they believe. This aspect of Christ's work is universal; it was once and for all.
He is not saying our belief doesn't matter...just that it doesn't matter in the particular context which he was addressing.
Since the content of our salvation is to be found ultimately in the image and likeness of Christ, a process which takes a lifetime for most of us, and pert-near for the rest our salvation then does depend upon us. We may cooperate with God's grace or walk contrary to it. One advances us little by little from glory to glory the other leads to darkness and perdition, the second death.
Walter was trying to refocus the discussion a bit more towards salvation's content and our responsibility to run the race as atheletes and not as couch potatoes, and the loosing of the prize through our own sloth and distraction.
His comment was chosen both for its theological comment and its usefulness as an attention getter.
Walter may correct me if I have mistaken his intent or meaning.
UWS,
You have put forth something that looks structurally like what I believe, except in one fundamental aspect. What I agree with is that something wonderful happened 2000 years ago, and yet there is still stuff that must happen, one of which is our response to this wonderful thing. But what I disagree with is that if one fails with the rest of the stuff that must still happen (i.e., the stuff after our initial response) that that one will go through the second death. But it will still be tragic because of the loss of what could have been.
Sozo or soterion (salvation) are complex Greek words. I think OSAS people (toward which I am tending) tend to only focus on the initial aspect of it. It doesn't mean just rescuing from hell, though that is an important aspect of it. It also means the abundant life into which Christ promised to usher us. That is what I believe we cooperate with God's grace in. We walk by faith, which is not passive belief, but active confident hanging of your body on what God's word says. The greek word pistis (faith) translates 3 hebrew words: hasa (to run to the shelter of a rock), batak (to lean on a staff), and amen (the inner confidence that does the first two things automatically). In this walk from glory to glory, our only task is to exercise faith (whose expression is love). It's like what Augustine said that got old Pelagius all spun up: "Command what Thou wilt, and Will what Thou commandest."
The value of eternal security is that you don't have the constant worry of "am I out or am I in." This is a great relief, and a great motivator to serve God and trust in Him daily. However, this doesn't take away the need to examine whether you're living by faith every day.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/8/2006 7:33:59 PM
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walterquez
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So what if you're not eternally saved? The scripture gives ample evidence such as "when I was hungry you did not feed me" examples, which is contrary to eternal security. Or Galatians when it talks about the fruit of the flesh and their consequences, again against eternal security.
I believe that if you believe you're eternally secure, you're living a dangerous life. Basically, living a lie.
Salvation according to scripture is not faith only, or grace only. That's not scriptural. Christ said to obey His commandments. If you don't, you will not be saved regardless of whether you have faith or not.
_____________________________
St. Athanasius the Great
For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/8/2006 8:06:53 PM
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cassian
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Ezra,
quote:
My comment:
A believer and unbeliever can change positions at will in life.
Your response:
From where are you deriving your ambiguous theology? What you have stated above is certainly not found in the NT. Your entire reasoning sounds confused. I would recommend a careful study of the Bible. What is ambiguous about it. The NT is brimming with this concept. Maybe you might venture your explanation of why you think the NT is void of the concept.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/8/2006 8:34:14 PM
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cassian
Posts: 162
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To all,
quote:
I think OSAS people (toward which I am tending) tend to only focus on the initial aspect of it. It doesn't mean just rescuing from hell, though that is an important aspect of it.
Since we are on a little side track dealing with what Christ accomplished and what man is responsible for I would like to share this concept as well.
The phrase, "Christ saved us from Hell", is often stated. Yet, this is wholly inaccurate based on scripture in describing the fall and Christ redemptive work to overcome that fall or judgement against man, namely death.
To put it in Biblical terminology, Christ saved us from death. (for the moment we will leave sin out of this explanation) Death is destruction of the human being. Thus Christ saved us from destruction. In this state, the judgement of death, hell does not exist. Hell is for those who are immortal, can live eternally and are not subject to death.
Thus Christ, in His redemptive work freed man from the curse of the Adamic judgment, but then in that freedom, gave man a choice. To believe or reject Him. Thus Christ's redemptive work provided for union with God, or separation from God. This separation is known as hell, or the second death. Thus the statement that Christ saved us from hell is not scriptural. He provided it as an option.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/8/2006 10:18:49 PM
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nowimfound
Posts: 389
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quote:
ORIGINAL: walterquez
I believe that if you believe you're eternally secure, you're living a dangerous life. Basically, living a lie.
Salvation according to scripture is not faith only, or grace only. That's not scriptural. Christ said to obey His commandments. If you don't, you will not be saved regardless of whether you have faith or not.
I believe that God for Christ's sake forgives me all my sins. This is either the most wonderful Gospel message, or it is a terrible lie. It can not be both. If it is true, then eternal security is a natural corollary. I am at peace with God and can humbly but confidently return to His presence. If it is a lie, then peace with God is and remains an uncertainty till the end of my days.
IMHO, holding to this axiom of the Christian faith is what distinguishes the believer from the unbeliever. Every other Christian doctrine is correctly understood when it upholds and supports this fundamental tenet. Every doctrine that denegrates or compormises this truth is in error. In your statements above, you said that 'Christ said to obey his commandments, and if you don't you will not be saved whether you have faith or not.' It is true that Christ said to obey his commandments. It is also true that those who do not obey his commandments are subject to God's wrath. However, Scripture also says that one who believes that God for Christ's sake forgives his sins is no longer subject to the condemnation of God's law or the outpouring of his wrath. No where in Scirpture does it ever teach that a person whose faith and hope is this Gospel message that God for Christ's sake forgives sins can or will ever be condemned for failure to obey Christ's commandments. Scripture teaches a standard of righteousness according to the law that no one meets and it teaches a way of righteousness that is by faith. The two are diametrically opposed and mixing them together is no Gospel at all.
Grace and Peace,
NIF
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/8/2006 10:25:21 PM
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walterquez
Posts: 1357
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quote:
ORIGINAL: nowimfound
I believe that God for Christ's sake forgives me all my sins. I think you mean for your sakes, not His.
quote:
This is either the most wonderful Gospel message, or it is a terrible lie. It can not be both. If it is true, then eternal security is a natural corollary. I am at peace with God and can humbly but confidently return to His presence. If it is a lie, then peace with God is and remains an uncertainty till the end of my days. Well, I guess if that is true then let's party and enjoy everything life has to offer. Money, women, cars, money, houses, women, food, money. Who cares if we suffer any consequences here. God has forgiven them all. This wordly pleasure is only for a very brief moment, so who cares if we suffer or make others suffer. I am eternally secure, so let's enjoy it.
_____________________________
St. Athanasius the Great
For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/8/2006 11:27:09 PM
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cassian
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nowimfound,
quote:
I believe that God for Christ's sake forgives me all my sins. This is either the most wonderful Gospel message, or it is a terrible lie. It can not be both. If it is true, then eternal security is a natural corollary. I am at peace with God and can humbly but confidently return to His presence. If it is a lie, then peace with God is and remains an uncertainty till the end of my days. In reading this statement my first reaction is that it is not accurately stated.
You may mean this, I believe that God for Christ's sake can and does forgive me all my sins when I confess them.
If you believe that Christ arbitrarily forgave you your sins would not be scriptural. Christ paid the debt, the penalty of those sins, but He did not forgive anyone of their sins as a part of His Work on the Cross. Christ paid that penalty for every single soul that lives. God offers this part of Christ's work as a Gift to mankind. When man believes and accepts Christ, the first act of obedience through that faith is repentance. Anyone who believes, is baptised, which is entering into the Kingdom, the Body of Christ, must also incorporate repentance into that faith. Without it faith is meaningless, is dead, is actually faithlessness.
Faith without repentance is a dead faith, worthless.
Man remains reconciled to God as a believer as long as He seeks forgiveness, confesses his sins. That is why from man's perspective there is no security in his faith. It is a matter of constantly moving, increasing from glory to glory, becoming more like Christ, our example. To live a life in Him is to live a life apart from sin. Confession from those sins is paramount when we do them. And we do do them. Thus confession is absolutely necessary to remain reconciled to God.
quote:
However, Scripture also says that one who believes that God for Christ's sake forgives his sins is no longer subject to the condemnation of God's law or the outpouring of his wrath.
Belief is the requisite and that belief or faith is validated by repentance and further reconcilement is based on confession of our sins. Thus it is anyone who believes is saved. That is a statment of fact. But anyone who does believe does not necessarily always remain a believer. We can and do permit sin to enter and rule our lives. We permit the flesh to overrule the spirit. When we do this and do not seek forgiveness or repentance from our waywardness, we are no longer being saved. We no longer believe. Then you can incorporate what Walter was stating. If we obey His commandments we remain in Him. Obeying Him is an act of faith. It is faith in action, it is the part that says, we are saved through faith. It is not by faith, but through faith. Works and faith are synonomous in the NT, not opposites.
The reason you believe they are opposites is that works of the law cannot save man from the fall. Nothing man can do can save man from the fall. Man is unable to do this work in any respect, thus Christ performed all of the work necessary to redeem, reconcile, justify, to make righteous man before God. Or, to overcome death and sin for mankind. By saying faith justifies a man, is that this man can accomplish everything Christ did on the Cross which was the justification of mankind by simply believing or become justified. But then we are also individually saved through that faith.
All of mankind is saved by Grace. But only believers are saved by Grace THROUGH faith.
quote:
No where in Scirpture does it ever teach that a person whose faith and hope is this Gospel message that God for Christ's sake forgives sins can or will ever be condemned for failure to obey Christ's commandments. No, because one is the natural outflow of the other. On the other hand, if we do disobey and do so willingly, and unrepentantly, we have lost faith, or belief, thus we can be condemned for our unbelief. You cannot be saved through sinning or unbelief. Belief implies and requires repentance and confession of sins. If not, we are no longer in faith and not being saved.
That is why all the warning regarding maintaining faith and/or belief. We can lose faith simply by sinning unrepentantly. If we do not love our neighbor we cannot love God. IF you cannot love God can you say you are still being saved?
If one permits the flesh to rule their lives, can one say that they are living in the spirit with the Spirit as a helper? Or can the Spirit be quenched and leave us if we persist in rejecting the work of the Holy Spirit in our lives? If no, then the warning about doing this is meaningless and totally unnecessary.
Thus we have such warnings and statements as these:
And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
Rev.22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
1John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus .
1 Timothy 5:12 Having condemnation because they have cast off their first faith.
1 Timothy 6:10 For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil, for which some have strayed from the faith in their greediness, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows
These are but a few of many, many verses all saying the same thing. Remaining IN Christ takes a lot of work. Diligence and patience and endurance. We do it all through Him who loves us and gave Himself for us. But we can certainly turn Him aside.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/8/2006 11:42:49 PM
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nowimfound
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quote:
ORIGINAL: walterquez
quote:
ORIGINAL: nowimfound
I believe that God for Christ's sake forgives me all my sins. I think you mean for your sakes, not His.
No, I stated it correctly.
quote:
quote:
This is either the most wonderful Gospel message, or it is a terrible lie. It can not be both. If it is true, then eternal security is a natural corollary. I am at peace with God and can humbly but confidently return to His presence. If it is a lie, then peace with God is and remains an uncertainty till the end of my days. Well, I guess if that is true then let's party and enjoy everything life has to offer. Money, women, cars, money, houses, women, food, money. Who cares if we suffer any consequences here. God has forgiven them all. This wordly pleasure is only for a very brief moment, so who cares if we suffer or make others suffer. I am eternally secure, so let's enjoy it.
Like I said, you either believe that I have accurately stated the central article of the Christian faith or you don't. I will make no assumptions about your faith, however I would say that your remarks appear to be intended to call this message into question.
Grace and Peace,
NIF
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/8/2006 11:46:37 PM
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walterquez
Posts: 1357
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quote:
ORIGINAL: nowimfound
I will make no assumptions about your faith, however I would say that your remarks appear to be intended to call this message into question. Please explain.
_____________________________
St. Athanasius the Great
For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/9/2006 12:08:19 AM
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nowimfound
Posts: 389
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cassian
nowimfound,
quote:
I believe that God for Christ's sake forgives me all my sins. This is either the most wonderful Gospel message, or it is a terrible lie. It can not be both. If it is true, then eternal security is a natural corollary. I am at peace with God and can humbly but confidently return to His presence. If it is a lie, then peace with God is and remains an uncertainty till the end of my days. In reading this statement my first reaction is that it is not accurately stated.
You may mean this, I believe that God for Christ's sake can and does forgive me all my sins when I confess them.
No, I stated it accurately. While we were yet sinners, Christ died FOR US.
quote:
If you believe that Christ arbitrarily forgave you your sins would not be scriptural.
The love of God is not arbitrary, nor is it conditional.
quote:
Christ paid the debt, the penalty of those sins, but He did not forgive anyone of their sins as a part of His Work on the Cross. Christ paid that penalty for every single soul that lives. God offers this part of Christ's work as a Gift to mankind. When man believes and accepts Christ, the first act of obedience through that faith is repentance. Anyone who believes, is baptised, which is entering into the Kingdom, the Body of Christ, must also incorporate repentance into that faith. Without it faith is meaningless, is dead, is actually faithlessness.
Faith without repentance is a dead faith, worthless.
Faith and repentance are both gifts of God. Without Him, we can do nothing.
quote:
Man remains reconciled to God as a believer as long as He seeks forgiveness, confesses his sins. That is why from man's perspective there is no security in his faith. It is a matter of constantly moving, increasing from glory to glory, becoming more like Christ, our example. To live a life in Him is to live a life apart from sin. Confession from those sins is paramount when we do them. And we do do them. Thus confession is absolutely necessary to remain reconciled to God.
What you have essentially said is that you deny that God for Christ's sake forgivess us our sins. Instead, you have made God's forgiveness the result of our 'constatnly moving and increasing from glory to glory, becoming more like Christ.
quote:
Belief is the requisite and that belief or faith is validated by repentance and further reconcilement is based on confession of our sins.
Belief is an ambiguous word. What belief are you talking about. I have said that the Christian FAITH is believing that God for Christ's sake forgives us all our sins. What do you say the Christian faith is? We believe what or we are unbelievers?
quote:
Thus it is anyone who believes is saved. That is a statment of fact. But anyone who does believe does not necessarily always remain a believer. We can and do permit sin to enter and rule our lives. We permit the flesh to overrule the spirit. When we do this and do not seek forgiveness or repentance from our waywardness, we are no longer being saved. We no longer believe. Then you can incorporate what Walter was stating. If we obey His commandments we remain in Him. Obeying Him is an act of faith. It is faith in action, it is the part that says, we are saved through faith. It is not by faith, but through faith. Works and faith are synonomous in the NT, not opposites.
Works and faith are not synonomous in the N.T. or the O.T. This is made clear in Romans 2 and 3.
It is late. I will reply to the rest later.
Grace and Peace,
NIF
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/9/2006 8:27:35 AM
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facedown
Posts: 977
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: the urban desert
Status: offline
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quote:
Bold is mine. Have a nice day.
didn't want to leave this unanswered: me and the family live just outside of Montgomery.
peace
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-| those who say, don't know. those who know, don't say |-
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/9/2006 10:37:55 AM
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unworthyseraphim
Posts: 1090
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Mississippi
Status: offline
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Dear Johnkw,
You said the Greek word sozo is a complex word. I can certainly accept that Greek has nooks and crannies that English doesn't. Here's the thing for me though with regard to the OSAS interpretation of the Scriptures, which are in Greek. Why is it that 2000 years of pious, holy, biblically literate Greek Christians have not derived from these texts an understanding and interpretation that remotely resembles OSAS?
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/9/2006 10:59:11 AM
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walterquez
Posts: 1357
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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That's an excellent point. It's their language, yet that is not how they read it.
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