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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/9/2006 11:03:26 AM
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rileykins
Posts: 174
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Hello walterquez
here is the verse....
And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you. Ephesians 4:32
As God for Christ's sake has forgiven you..
God's forgiveness bestowed on us who believe (here we go agian....by grace through faith, not of works..)..is based on what His Son did for us on Calvary.
[/quote] Well, I guess if that is true then let's party and enjoy everything life has to offer. Money, women, cars, money, houses, women, food, money. Who cares if we suffer any consequences here. God has forgiven them all. This wordly pleasure is only for a very brief moment, so who cares if we suffer or make others suffer. I am eternally secure, so let's enjoy it.
Nice try, but that's not what Scirpture tells us about what grace teaches us. Grace is not a liscense to sin. I'm getting a little sick of hearing that because it's not what God says about grace...
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Titus 2
Are you going to go by what men say, or what God does. If God says that it's the grace of God teaching us to deny ungodliness and wordly lusts then how dare anyone say no, it's the grace of God that is a liscense to sin!
rileykins
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/9/2006 11:30:24 AM
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walterquez
Posts: 1375
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rileykins
Nice try, but that's not what Scirpture tells us about what grace teaches us. Grace is not a liscense to sin. I'm getting a little sick of hearing that because it's not what God says about grace... But it's true. What is wrong with sinning if you are eternally saved? You can't talk about doing good works, because that would contradict eternal security. And what's with the "I'm getting a little sick" cliche?
_____________________________
St. Athanasius the Great
For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/9/2006 12:33:40 PM
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facedown
Posts: 1030
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From: the urban desert
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quote:
What is wrong with sinning if you are eternally saved? You can't talk about doing good works, because that would contradict eternal security.
lol.
if you took a more mystical approach in your communications, i may actually agree with you. but you seem to come from a very practical avenue.
indeed-to the pure, all things are pure
_____________________________
-| those who say, don't know. those who know, don't say |-
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/9/2006 12:51:23 PM
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cassian
Posts: 162
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nowimfound,
quote:
No, I stated it accurately. While we were yet sinners, Christ died FOR US. Stating it is one thing, understanding it is altogether something else. It means every single human being that every lived. If one has been called a human being, Christ died for their sins. He died for sinners and the ungodly. Are there any who are not in that category?
quote:
The love of God is not arbitrary, nor is it conditional. We are not speaking of love here. God loves the sinner as you just indicated above, all sinners. He desires that all be saved, thus He redeemed all from death and sin.
But forgiveness which is required to be IN Christ is conditional. One cannot be in Christ unless one believes and believes or faith must have evidence which is obedience and love.
That is what distinquishes believers from unbelievers. These are the only two categories. You are either one or the other.
quote:
Faith and repentance are both gifts of God. Without Him, we can do nothing. Couldn't agree with you more. BUT, we must accept that gift(s). We are entrusted then to maintain to uphold that faith and trust. We can and do turn it aside. We can trample that gift.
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What you have essentially said is that you deny that God for Christ's sake forgivess us our sins. Not at all. Christ is only and able to forgiven our sins because of His Work. But God does not arbitrarily forgive sins. ONLY if you are willing and able to confress them and to remain reconciled to Him. Sin separates man from God. Always has and always will.
As long as we remain IN Christ, the Holy Spirit remains to work with us to increase our faith, to strengthen our union and communion with God. But man can turn aside and become rebellious and unrepentant.
quote:
Belief is an ambiguous word. What belief are you talking about. I have said that the Christian FAITH is believing that God for Christ's sake forgives us all our sins. What do you say the Christian faith is? We believe what or we are unbelievers? Yes, and believing implies the willingness to repent and to live in the spirit being guided by the Spirit. If we fail to repent our faith is meaningless. Faith alone does exactly that, alone, nothing.
quote:
Works and faith are not synonomous in the N.T. or the O.T. This is made clear in Romans 2 and 3.
It is late. I will reply to the rest later. Wrong works, on the wrong side of redemption and justification. They are synonomous in both the NT and OT. Abraham is the father of faith. Read it very carefully which side of faith the works belong.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/9/2006 1:38:27 PM
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unworthyseraphim
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Dear Walter,
In simplistic terms from the OSAS position I think it means you also get cold milk with your cookies come refreshment time. Ie. Quality of reward beyond escaping hell depending the kind of Christian life you lead.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/9/2006 1:54:51 PM
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rileykins
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How on earth does knowing one is eternally secure in Christ, knowing that one has as a present posession, eternal life and that the life God in Christ has given us can never be lost, contradict doing good works?
It's just the opposite. Knowing that we have been justified by faith, that we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, are reconciled to God, have all our sins forgiven past, present and future, are sealed in Christ by the Holy Spirit, have been crucified, buried and raised with Him in newness of life, have become a new creation in Him, are God's workmanship created in Christ Jesus, know that we are accepted in the Beloved, are complete in Him, are seated with Him in the heavenlies, have sonship status, and much much more, is what motivates us to good works and to wanting to live for God. The riches of His grace, the exceeding abundant riches of God's grace towards us in Christ is what motivates us to live godly and righteously in this present age. Not false erronous threats of loss of ones salvation.
rileykins
quote:
ORIGINAL: walterquez
quote:
ORIGINAL: rileykins
Nice try, but that's not what Scirpture tells us about what grace teaches us. Grace is not a liscense to sin. I'm getting a little sick of hearing that because it's not what God says about grace... But it's true. What is wrong with sinning if you are eternally saved? You can't talk about doing good works, because that would contradict eternal security. And what's with the "I'm getting a little sick" cliche?
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/9/2006 2:10:22 PM
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facedown
Posts: 1030
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quote:
You have two people who are eternally saved. One lives a holy life, while the other lives a wordly one. Does it really make a difference how they live since both are eternally saved?
I mean, what's the sense living a holy life when you know you're eternally saved?
your ideology refuses to acknoweldge that they "will" be saved my friend.
and there was much to my earlier point, but not much time to discuss while keeping in line with this thread. peace
_____________________________
-| those who say, don't know. those who know, don't say |-
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/9/2006 2:30:04 PM
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walterquez
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rileykins
How on earth does knowing one is eternally secure in Christ, knowing that one has as a present posession, eternal life and that the life God in Christ has given us can never be lost, contradict doing good works? Why do you need good works for if you're eternally saved? What's the purpose?
_____________________________
St. Athanasius the Great
For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/9/2006 2:32:39 PM
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walterquez
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quote:
ORIGINAL: facedown
your ideology refuses to acknoweldge that they "will" be saved my friend. I am not even arguing about whether they "will" be saved. My question is what's the point of living a holy life if you're eternally secure?
_____________________________
St. Athanasius the Great
For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/9/2006 3:05:21 PM
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facedown
Posts: 1030
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again, you miss the point:
those abiding in Christ-
-Are Saved
-Are Being Saved
-Will Be Saved
_____________________________
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/9/2006 3:53:35 PM
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walterquez
Posts: 1375
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quote:
ORIGINAL: facedown
again, you miss the point:
those abiding in Christ-
-Are Saved
-Are Being Saved
-Will Be Saved You're missing my point which you're avoiding.
But now you bring a more confusing point as far as OSAS goes. If you were saved, then what's the being saved, and the will be saved for? Was the first one not enough?
You seem to be throwing in the Orthodox therapeutic model into the mix. This new.
_____________________________
St. Athanasius the Great
For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/9/2006 4:05:34 PM
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facedown
Posts: 1030
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what's your point?
i don't subsribe to OSAS, nor do I believe the Bible teaches it, as most present it anyways. For it fails to teach that we are being saved, and that we will be saved. Do a simple search for those phrases if you like.
_____________________________
-| those who say, don't know. those who know, don't say |-
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/9/2006 4:07:33 PM
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walterquez
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Please explain by what you mean by was saved, being saved, and will be saved.
_____________________________
St. Athanasius the Great
For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/9/2006 7:32:04 PM
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johnkw
Posts: 394
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cassian
johnkw,
...
quote:
Do you know my view that you could make such a categorical statement? Slow down, trigger I am assuming you are being honest here and not playing the devils advocate. Thus you either are sincerely attempting to put forth your view, or you are acknowledging that you have done a very poor job in that I should not have any indication by what you have been saying.
Huh? My view is complex, and the truth even more so, so how could I hope to put forth my complete view in limited time? As I said, I'm not in grad school, and I don't have time to be thorough (at least as thorough as would satisfy myself: I could spend all day on these fora). All I can hope is to inject nuggets of what I believe to be truth in order to help truth seekers. You can assume I'm being honest. I'm not trying to tell riddles.
You and I are now basically going back and forth standoff that was there originally: once-saved-always-saved or always-being-saved. Both sides seem pretty entrenched. I can only hope that we all can learn from each other.
quote:
quote:
You really ask that? Being saved (in the ushering into eternal life sense, not in the daily growing in grace/holiness sense) is not the end-all be-all of Christian life. that is where there is a massive distinction in scripture which you are not grasping. All men will live eternally. It is that daily, grace/holiness, remaining in faith that separates the unbeliever from the believer and determines whether one lives with Christ or apart from Him, eternally.
Not grasping? Rather, not accepting. Or, I put the dividing line in a different place.
quote:
quote:
But scripture doesn't call it final condemnation, just chastisement. Check your Greek. No, it never calls it chastisement. It is a final judgement. That is what condemnation is in every instance. It is not final here as these people have time to repent. They are eating to their condemnation. If they do not cease they will die. That is a final result and condemnation then is final.
I'll say it again. The greek word is krima, which does not denote final condemnation, even though the KJV translates it as 'damnation'. It's just a judgement, either sickness or death.
quote:
Salvation is not condemnation. Never has been, never will be. If so, then every unbeliever is already saved as well, even though they have been condemned.
I would suggest you study the Greek a little more. The prefex 'kata" is not final either depending on the context. For the unbeliever who is condemned because of his unbelief, does not have final condemnation either. He can change that status at will. He can become a beleiver and not be condemned at all. So, the believer, has eternal life. But eternal life is dependent on believing. It is not final anymore that the kata is for the unbeliever. But for the same reason it is final, IF one continues to believe.
Stick to the context and the meaning of the scriptural uses of these words.
I am sticking to the context and the meaning. All you're saying in that paragraph is that you're right and I'm wrong. 'kata' is not used, so there's no worry about any ambiguities involved in bringing it in. The word translated condemnation or judgement is only in a limited sense.
quote:
quote:
This is ultimate condemnation, katakrima. The 'kata' makes it ultimate. And that happens at their death, if they don't Repent Ah, but you do understand, but fail to apply it correctly. Now you should know that as well.
Huh?
quote:
quote:
To your point: it's not a symmetric proposition. OSAS does not imply OLAL. That is the point. It does not, but your view does as you have explained it, or should say more correctly, applied it.
How?
quote:
quote:
Whoa, nelly! I'm not ignoring anything You're ignoring all those changes we make in this life. Nothing in the slightest is final until death. Death is final. It is what you are at death that determines where you are on the other side.
Well, here we are, circling back to the point in contention. I'm not ignoring the changes we make in life. They matter. The faith that you exercise in life builds an eternal weight of glory that far outweighs any suffering you undergo in the exercise. To the degree you don't exercise such faith you'll lose out on your rewards and good fruit you could have borne for God and others, and you'll be sorry. But you'll still make it by the skin of your teeth, if you've one time in this life, said the Amen to Christ's saving work and given your life over to him. However, I, for one, don't want to just make it by the skin of my teeth. I want all He has for me, in this life and the next. And the Spirit, when He comes into a believer, will give him such a desire.
quote:
Lets look at context: John 3:18. both believers and unbelievers have a final destination. It is a simple fact. John 3:16 refers only to believers, but implies the opposite for unbeleivers.
Basic logic: for any syllogism the converse is not necessarily true. The syllogism {All men have 2 legs. This is a man. Therefore it has two legs.} is true. It does not necessarily follow that something that isn't a man doesn't have 2 legs.
So John 3:16 does not imply the opposite for unbelievers. If it did the unbeliever would never have a chance in this life. That John 3:16 is final for believers does not imply finality for unbelievers. They still have a chance.
John 3:18 uses krima with no prefix. Interesting.
quote:
But none of these positions is a final result for either a believer nor an unbeliever as long as he is alive and breathing. A believer and unbeliever can change positions at will in life. Death is final and position at death is what is final of either choice.
You're imposing a symmetry that is not there.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/9/2006 7:42:12 PM
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johnkw
Posts: 394
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quote:
ORIGINAL: walterquez
quote:
ORIGINAL: nowimfound
I believe that God for Christ's sake forgives me all my sins. I think you mean for your sakes, not His.
quote:
This is either the most wonderful Gospel message, or it is a terrible lie. It can not be both. If it is true, then eternal security is a natural corollary. I am at peace with God and can humbly but confidently return to His presence. If it is a lie, then peace with God is and remains an uncertainty till the end of my days. Well, I guess if that is true then let's party and enjoy everything life has to offer. Money, women, cars, money, houses, women, food, money. Who cares if we suffer any consequences here. God has forgiven them all. This wordly pleasure is only for a very brief moment, so who cares if we suffer or make others suffer. I am eternally secure, so let's enjoy it.
The Spirit doesn't work that way. When He comes in, by faith (alone--Thanks, Martin), He gives us new desires. Our work is to put our faith in Him. Jesus and John both say this (not to mention Paul). To claim His promises as we obey. A Spirit-filled person won't want to dissipate with Money, women, cars, money, houses, women, food, money, and they will care about the consequences suffered for such a dissipative life.
I was tempted to say you're putting up a straw man, but I won't, because it's a fear we all have. It's a valid question we all should have--it does look like a dangerous life. But Thanks be to God, through our Lord Jesus Christ, He fulfills the law in us, as we walk by the Spirit, which came into us when we were rescued. That's what's so unbelievable, but I'm believing it more and more.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/9/2006 7:55:23 PM
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gracewalk
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walterquez..
Your silly comments about those who believe in eternal security might as well go sin up a storrm are as old as the moon and just as worn out.. You know as well as I do the purpose for any of us to enter into good works is in responce to what the Lord has done on our behalf. We call that abiding in the vine.. we do them because we love our Lord..as you should.. frankly this is insulting..
Now if I believed my life time of work were merritorious unto salvation perhaps this nonsence would have some merrit.. Nah..
Gal 2:21 "I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness {comes} through the Law, then Christ died needlessly."
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, {it is} the gift of God;
It is the grace of God that teaches us to say no to unrighteousness.. not our commitment to a lifetime of sterling behavior..
Titus 2:11 ¶ For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age,
Somehow reading post after post about earning your way into the kingdom, not just you.. truly saddens me.. because it is not of faith .. you have put faith in that you can somehow be on the right hand side of the bell curve at the end of your life.. that you can, well certainly as compared to others here, outperform others in you life.. no matter how you slice it.. it is works salvation.. that is not of faith.. and all the argumentative post here simply don't change that.
I would say most who have really accepted the grace of God came out of legalistic controlling denominations of some sort. They at some point in time realized the word makes it clear. apart from faith it's all Jesus and none of me.. They then are free to Love the Lord and walk in the Spirit doing those things established for us to do out of Love, not in order to gain acceptance
Heb 10:14 For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.
This can't be ignored.. this is not talking about people who just met their end..
Again.. please don't use the worn out license to sin rediculous and over used argument.. the greatest sin I see is what you folks are doing with justification by faith.. You'd be hard pressed to find saved individuals who accepted the finished work of God sinning up a storm.. but that won't stop you from pulling out that which you can not demonstrate if forced to.. these all sound like political talking points used over and over again with no basis in fact.
I am sure in a few hours there will yet more explanations of how we have to earn our way into the kingdom..
Gee, we already had a system in place that was similar to that.. wonder why the Lord came..
_____________________________
Heb 4:9 So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God. For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GraceRest/
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/9/2006 7:57:59 PM
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walterquez
Posts: 1375
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quote:
ORIGINAL: johnkw
The Spirit doesn't work that way. When He comes in, by faith (alone--Thanks, Martin), What happened to grace alone? (By the way, I thank God for our salvation  )
quote:
He gives us new desires. Our work is to put our faith in Him. Jesus and John both say this (not to mention Paul). To claim His promises as we obey. A Spirit-filled person won't want to dissipate with Money, women, cars, money, houses, women, food, money, and they will care about the consequences suffered for such a dissipative life. Can you show me in the scripture that God actually puts this desires in you, or that God changes your lifestyles? Especially when there are so many passages that tells us to change ourselves?
If God was going to change us, then there is no need to tell people to change.
_____________________________
St. Athanasius the Great
For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/9/2006 8:19:07 PM
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cassian
Posts: 162
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johnkw,
quote:
I'll say it again. The greek word is krima, which does not denote final condemnation, even though the KJV translates it as 'damnation'. It's just a judgement, either sickness or death. I think I have adaquately explained that point. However, if death does occur and one is still in condemnation, you can be assured that one is NOT saved. Condemnation and salvation are opposites.
The same is for salvation. This is what the whole issue is regarding OSAS. A text that states a factual matter such as John 3:18 where both the believer and unbeliever is a matter of final fact. One is saved, one is condemned, finally. But the fact is, that as long as man lives neither salvation nor condemnation is final. That is what the text is saying, which you agree with, that it is not final. It is not final because there is a chance or possibility of repentance. But they are DRINGING AND EATING TO THEIR CONDEMNTATION, and without repentance, if death does occur, then that condemnation is final and that person is not saved. Condemnation is not salvation. Never has been and never will be.
I don't need to check the Greek. The Greeks have been living and writing and explaining these texts for 2000 years already. The Bible was written in Greek and it has not changed one iota. Still means the same as when it was written.
quote:
I am sticking to the context and the meaning. All you're saying in that paragraph is that you're right and I'm wrong. 'kata' is not used, so there's no worry about any ambiguities involved in bringing it in. The word translated condemnation or judgement is only in a limited sense. That is the context and meaning of the whole of scripture. You will never find that condemnation equals or is the same as believing or being saved. Never. Whether prior to death or at death when it becomes final, if that condition still remains, same for those that believe.
quote:
Your statement. This is ultimate condemnation, katakrima. The 'kata' makes it ultimate. And that happens at their death, if they don't Repent
My response: Ah, but you do understand, but fail to apply it correctly. Now you should know that as well.
Huh? This is exactly what I stated before and have again just above. The one we are actually speaking about without the 'kata' is in I Cor 11:29, but your answer is found in vs 32.
If death does occur before repentance one is condemned as one of the world. That is not salvation in the least.
You make a correct statement regarding it, but for some reason do not apply it correctly.
quote:
To the degree you don't exercise such faith you'll lose out on your rewards and good fruit you could have borne for God and others, and you'll be sorry. But you'll still make it by the skin of your teeth, if you've one time in this life, said the Amen to Christ's saving work and given your life over to him. Yes, that is absolutely correct. The biggest reward is Christ himself. If one does not exercise their faith, strengthen and increase their faith, they jeopardize the salvation itself. If all one does is a one-time mental ascent of faith, they have a dead faith, a nonexistant faith. A dead faith is meaningless and worthless. You will not find anything is scripture to support the above statement. The entire NT speaks against it, so how could it be a principle of salvation.
quote:
And the Spirit, when He comes into a believer, will give him such a desire. That is correct, but the devil is seeking whom he can also devour. He can only devour Christians. They are the only ones available for him. Man can and does give in to the flesh. Both the Holy Spirit and the devil ply the will and desire of man. Both seek to dominate your will and desire. BUT IT IS ALL UP TO YOU TO DETERMINE WHO WILL RULE YOUR LIFE. You will be held accountable for that work.
quote:
So John 3:16 does not imply the opposite for unbelievers. If it did the unbeliever would never have a chance in this life. That is the precise point I wanted to make. We, as human beings, restored by Christ, having been freed from the bondage to death and sin, are free to choose or reject. But we can also move between them at will. No one is held in either position. It is what you are at death that is final - salvation or condemnation.
quote:
John 3:18 uses krima with no prefix. Interesting. Why would it be interesting. It is implying that repentance can change it from condemnation to salvation, for the same reason the other way around. Death will make each final.
quote:
You're imposing a symmetry that is not there. It is there and has been since Adam. We were so created to be free. Created with an independent will from that of God. Since God created man that way, in fact, redeemed mankind, so man could exercise that freedom, to choose and remain or not.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/9/2006 8:47:00 PM
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walterquez
Posts: 1375
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unworthyseraphim brought an excellent point earlier which no one has dared challenge it. Probably because they can't.
quote:
ORIGINAL: unworthyseraphim
Here's the thing for me though with regard to the OSAS interpretation of the Scriptures, which are in Greek. Why is it that 2000 years of pious, holy, biblically literate Greek Christians have not derived from these texts an understanding and interpretation that remotely resembles OSAS?
So how about at it?
_____________________________
St. Athanasius the Great
For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/9/2006 10:37:18 PM
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cassian
Posts: 162
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FreeGrace,
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Somehow reading post after post about earning your way into the kingdom, not just you.. truly saddens me.. because it is not of faith .. you have put faith in that you can somehow be on the right hand side of the bell curve at the end of your life.. that you can, well certainly as compared to others here, outperform others in you life.. no matter how you slice it.. it is works salvation.. that is not of faith.. and all the argumentative post here simply don't change that.
It would be much better to understand the others position. We are not asking that you even care, let alone believe. There is such a thing as understanding a position. You cannot even state it correctly, how could you possibly understand it.
For example, once again using your texts:
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Now if I believed my life time of work were merritorious unto salvation perhaps this nonsence would have some merrit.. Nah.. this proves that you do not understand. We re not speaking of man's salvation, we are not speaking of anything meritorious, we earn absolutely nothing. This statement has everything to do with Christ's work on the Cross. His saving of mankind from the fall. Saving man from the curse of Adam's judgement. Man cannot do this, never has attempted, cannot change it, cannot even reject it.
Now, this a going to be a stark statement just to make a point. It has nothing to do with our walk, our union, our communion with God through Christ. Adam was performing his created work before the fall. He was doing it as a created creature, created in God's image. If the fall had never occured, we would still be doing what Adam was doing, which is the same thing we are doing today having been saved by Christ, in order to do it.
If you accomplish anything else, would it be possible that you understand that one point.
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Gal 2:21 "I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness {comes} through the Law, then Christ died needlessly." Yes, He would have indeed. Christ was the promise from the exit from the Garden, for God knew, in fact allowed death as the judgement against Adam, as Christ could be the only answer. Man could never restore life to himself again. How can a dead being come back to life. The judgement against Adam was death. Christ overcame death with His Incarnation and resurrection. It is the primary, most important work of Christ on the Cross. Without it everything else is in vain.
Righteousness means to be made right, to redeem, to reconcile, to justify. Christ did all of this work for all of mankind. All who were under the judgement of Adam.
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Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, {it is} the gift of God; The Grace part applies to all of mankind, but a special grace to those that believe. They will be justified by faith. Guess what, they never had to do all that work, no law keeping could save (give life) them anyway. And it is a gift of God to mankind, those created in His Image who He did not wish to perish.
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It is the grace of God that teaches us to say no to unrighteousness.. not our commitment to a lifetime of sterling behavior.. It is God's Grace that strengthens us to keep our faith, our commitment to Him. To live as He desires and commands us to live or else. If we disobey, sin, rebell, reject Him, we will not be saved. This being saved is referrencing our souls, our union, our communion with God, NOT THE SAVING OF MANKIND OF CHRIST'S WORK ON THE CROSS.
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Titus 2:11 ¶ For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age, There you have it in bold English print. Salvation to all men. Christ saved all men, so that they could believe. Some will believe, freely accept Him, but can also just as easily reject Him or abandon Him. Then it says to live sensibly, righteously, and godly. Who is being commanded to do this., you or God. You want God to do all of these works. It is you who must do them and if you don't you are not being saved. Only those who have faith are being saved. If one is disobedient they have lost faith. Lost faith is not a saving faith? Right?
Then you have such texts as these which confirms this Truth:
And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
Rev.14:12, Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Rev.22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
We are not speaking about what we must do to be saved, but what we were created to do, even if Adam had never sinned and died.
1John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus
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I would say most who have really accepted the grace of God came out of legalistic controlling denominations of some sort. They at some point in time realized the word makes it clear. apart from faith it's all Jesus and none of me.. They then are free to Love the Lord and walk in the Spirit doing those things established for us to do out of Love, not in order to gain acceptance Again, a completely false and misunderstood statement of those who are opposed to OSAS. You are not even addressing the point, as I hopefully, once more explained above.
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Heb 10:14 For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.
This can't be ignored.. this is not talking about people who just met their end.. And only believers are being sanctified. But believers can leave the fold, then no longer are being sanctified and no longer are being saved. Very plain and simple truth.
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Again.. please don't use the worn out license to sin rediculous and over used argument.. the greatest sin I see is what you folks are doing with justification by faith.. You'd be hard pressed to find saved individuals who accepted the finished work of God sinning up a storm.. but that won't stop you from pulling out that which you can not demonstrate if forced to.. these all sound like political talking points used over and over again with no basis in fact. That is because you do not understand the theological ramifications of the concept of OSAS.
The view holds that upon a one-time mental ascent of a person saying I believe in Christ. Christ died for me and saved me, means that He has eternal life as a final decision. Thus, because the Bible is literally filled with good works and the command to live a life unto Christ, takes a lot of work, you simply say that this is the result of salvation. That because one once believes, he will live this kind of life. BUT, if he does not, it does not negate his salvation, only the rewards, whatever they are.
Thus, theologically, it matters not that one does in fact sin. It does not negate his salvation. It is the classic definition of easy believism.
However, the correct understanding of salvation, not of mankind, but the saving of our souls, is that the works done through faith is the content of salvation, not the cause nor the result of it. That is why the Bible speaks of being saved through faith, not by faith. It is the works done through faith by which we are saved. Thus the obedience, love, serving, enduring, is all about the content of our faith and salvation. Thus salvation is contingent on faith. One must endure, keep the faith. Without faith, there is no salvation. It is not about believing once upon a time for a moment, but always, continually, or as long as we draw breath, we are being saved. It is those that believe, not believed that will be saved- inherit the promise. Will have Christ as well as the rewards.
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I am sure in a few hours there will yet more explanations of how we have to earn our way into the kingdom.. So far, as long as I have been on this board, I have not heard, nor read anyone making that claim. But I have heard many who think that the opposite of OSAS is meritorious works to save ourselves.
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Gee, we already had a system in place that was similar to that.. wonder why the Lord came.. What system might you be referring to? Even in the OT one was saved through faith, justified by faith. Abraham is the father of this principle.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/10/2006 10:26:18 AM
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walterquez
Posts: 1375
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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There is a disconnect with what does salvation means.
Many believe people are saved when they accepted Christ as their personal saviour. Logically, this means they were not saved before conversion. So logically again, this proves that it is our believing or conversion that really saves us. And I think this is where we have a division among the Arminians and Calvinists. Yet neither one can fully explain it because the other has evidence to the contrary.
But then there is another position which has been understood by the Church for many many centuries, since the time of the Apostles. If you ask someone today when they got saved, they would say something like, "I got saved 16 years ago", or "on March 4, 2002". But if you asked the ancient Church the same question, they would say on beautiful spring day, Sunday morning, 33 AD, or something li | | |
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