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please help me on Job 2:9 - 5/20/2008 11:51:12 AM
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tucole
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Hello bible scholars! I need your help to help me understand Job 2:9 Okay Jobs wife says to him curse God and die. Okay we all know the story, when i use the strongs KJV its says the word curse in hebrew is pronounce baw-rak but the definitions it gives are to bless to kneel and bless and so on. At the very last line it says to curse by euphemism. Ok this is where its confusing how can one word me 2 diff things? when so many definitions mean to bless. I checked crosswalks other translations and only youngs literal translation says that she said "bless God & die" Hoping anyone wih insight into this can really help me with this one. God bless you all
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RE: please help me on Job 2:9 - 5/20/2008 11:58:29 AM
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MrFribbles
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What I've always heard is that the original writers refused to write out "curse God," so they chose to use an obvious exact-opposite euphemism, "bless," in its place. I'm pretty sure this is a historically recognized euphemism from the time, but even if its not, the context of the verse makes it clear what Job is unwilling to do. Though he's not exactly thrilled with what God has done, and he wants an explanation, he never stoops to cursing God - which would be the result that Satan wanted.
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Can a mortal ask questions which God finds unanswerable? Quite easily, I should think. All nonsense questions are unanswerable.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: please help me on Job 2:9 - 5/20/2008 12:22:02 PM
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LCannon
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Remember, Job's wife had suffered the same fate as Job; loss of family, possession and standing in their society. The of the three principles, God and Satan knew the outcome of Job's trial and Job discovered God's provision. Job's wife had little clue with the sketchy information provided in scripture except Job's character.
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"Many of our prayers are for an easy solution. God is more glorifed in Him
when souls exhibit His Grace under pressure." -Elisabeth Elliot-
"But at my stumbling they gathered in glee...[but]How long, O Lord,
wilt thou look on?" -Psalms 35:15-
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RE: please help me on Job 2:9 - 5/20/2008 12:36:04 PM
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Little_1
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In the context of Job Chapter 2 - Job's wife was angry and bitter towards God with what she experienced. I believe the Lord knew she was hurting deeply from the loss of her children, etc. Also Job's wife was not in the same place 'spritually growth wise' as her husband Job was. What a testimony Job must have been to her however. I don't think we should be critical of Job's wife. How many know the grief this woman experienced? It must have grieved the heart of God that she was carrying such bitterness and anger - then add to that grief as well. What a heavy burden that must be! We just never know what others who come across as bitter have gone through in life and should pray for them that the grace of God will break through and touch their lives with His healing balm.
Thankfully, the book of Job helps us to see that no matter what we may experience, the Lord is sufficient and in control of our lives and if we cleave to Him - He will bring our situations to pass and bless us (as well as make us a blessing) as a result of our perserverance in trials.
< Message edited by Little_1 -- 5/20/2008 12:56:43 PM >
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"Be joyful in hope, patient in affliction, faithful in prayer."
ROMANS 12:12
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RE: please help me on Job 2:9 - 5/20/2008 1:00:20 PM
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DaveW
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Consider it "on the Job training...."
It is not unusual in Hebrew for different words or even opposites to share a common spelling.
"Holy" and "prostitute" are both forms of kadosh.
"Man" and "fire" are the same word.
"Sin" and "sin offering" are the same word.
There are many more examples, and the only way to understand which meaning to use is from the context.
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RE: please help me on Job 2:9 - 5/20/2008 2:15:07 PM
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BerianAardvark
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tucole
Hello bible scholars! I need your help to help me understand Job 2:9 Okay Jobs wife says to him curse God and die. Okay we all know the story, when i use the strongs KJV its says the word curse in hebrew is pronounce baw-rak but the definitions it gives are to bless to kneel and bless and so on. At the very last line it says to curse by euphemism. Ok this is where its confusing how can one word me 2 diff things? when so many definitions mean to bless. I checked crosswalks other translations and only youngs literal translation says that she said "bless God & die" Hoping anyone wih insight into this can really help me with this one. God bless you all
Some times a commentary is more useful than a dictionary, as commentaries are scholarly expositions on the verses. To avoid copyright issues I will cite only public domain works. But as the language is somewhat archaic (from the 1800s), I will do some paraphrasing.
Albert Barnes (writing in the early to mid 1800s) points out that the word for curse in Job 1:11 is the same as is translated as curse in Job 2:9.
He cites some scholars who propose different translations, "“And yet dost thou hold fast thine integrity, blessing God and dying?”, “Renounce God, and die,” , “Bid farewell to God, and die.” and “Give thanks to God and die.” Holding more closely to the more common translations of בּרך (bârak).
But he then points out:
"The response of Job, however Job_2:10, shows that he understood her as exciting him to reject, renounce, or curse God." The sense is, she wished Job to express this and be relieved from his misery.
As to the "and die", Barnes suggests:
Probably she regarded God as a stern and severe Being, and supposed that by indulging in blasphemy Job would provoke him to cut him off at once. She did not expect him to lay wicked hands on himself. She expected that God would at once interpose and destroy him. The sense is, that nothing but death was to be expected, and the sooner he provoked God to cut him off from the land of the living, the better.
Barnes also points out that: The Septuagint has introduced a remarkable passage here, of which the following is a translation. “After much time had elapsed, his wife said unto him, How long wilt thou persevere, saying, Behold, I will wait a little longer, cherishing the trope of my recovery? Behold, the memorial of thee has disappeared from the earth - those sons and daughters, the pangs and sorrows of my womb, for whom I toiled laboriously in vain. Even thou sittest among loathsome worms, passing the night in the open air, whilst I, a wanderer and a drudge, from place to place, and from house to house, watch the sun until his going down, that I may rest from the toils and sorrows that now oppress me. But speak some word toward the Lord (τι ῥῆμα εἰς κύριον ti rēma eis kurion) and die.”
John Gill (writing in the late 1600s- late 1700s) suggests that: " the words may be rendered, "bless God and die"; and may be understood either sarcastically, go on blessing God till thou diest; if thou hast not had enough of it, take thy fill of it, and see what will be the issue of it; nothing but death; wilt thou still continue "blessing God and dying?" so some render the words, referring to what he had said in Job_1:21; or else really and sincerely, as advising him to humble himself before God, confess his sins, and "pray" unto him that he would take him out of this world, and free him from all his pains and sorrow; or rather the sense is, "bless God": take thy farewell of him; bid adieu to him and all religion, and so die; for there is no good to be hoped for on the score of that, here or hereafter; or at least not in this life: and so it amounts to much the same as before; and this sense is confirmed by Job's answer, which follows.
But he said to her, "You speak as one of the foolish women speaks. Shall we indeed accept good from God and not accept adversity?" In all this Job did not sin with his lips. (Job 2:10)
John Wesley takes a some what different stand:
Job 2:9 Then said his wife - Whom Satan spared, to be a troubler and tempter to him. It is his policy, to send his temptations by the hands of those that are dear to us. We must therefore carefully watch, that we be not drawn to any evil, by them whom we love and value the most. Die - I see thou art set upon blessing of God, thou blessest God for giving, and thou blessest God for taking away, and thou art still blessing God for thy loathsome diseases, and he rewards thee accordingly, giving thee more and more of that kind of mercy for which thou blessest him. Go on therefore in thy generous course, and bless God, and die as a fool dieth.
It is important to remember that commentaries are not inspired, but are the opinions and insights of Biblical scholars and others who were well respected enough to get published.
But as you can see commentaries can frequently be helpful in examining scripture.
You mentioned checking out some different translations, here are a couple I have access to that may have a useful angle.
It can be enlightening to see how Old Testament Books and passages are translated by the Jewish people themselves, this is from a Bible (old Testament only) from the Jewish Publication Society (1917).
Then said his wife unto him: 'Dost thou still hold fast thine integrity? blaspheme God, and die.' But he said unto her: 'Thou speakest as one of the impious women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil?' For all this did not Job sin with his lips. (Job 2:9-10 JPS)
One final citation, this from Complete Jewish Bible An English Version of the Tanakh (Old Testament) and B'rit Hadashah (New Testament) by David H. Stern © 1998 (who is a Messianic Jew.):
His wife asked him, "Why do you still hold on to your integrity? Curse God, and die!" But he answered her, "You're talking like a low-class woman! Are we to receive the good at God's hands but reject the bad?" In all this Iyov did not say one sinful word. (Job 2:9-10 CJB)
So as you can see, using several translations can also be helpful.
There are quite a few more tools for studying scripture than Strong's. ;-)
Hope this helps,
Tim
_____________________________
The Law is for the proud and the Gospel for the brokenhearted - Martin Luther
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RE: please help me on Job 2:9 - 5/23/2008 9:03:48 AM
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tucole
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Thank you all so much I do understand now esp where the euphemisim comes into play. Job suffering from boils sits down into ashes which is to humble or mourn. Enraged at this scene Job's wife ( & I do understand her b/c she lost the same thing as he did except health) she comes to him basicly and say how can u still sit there and humble yourself b4 God why do you bless him and die. she said bless but sarcasticly really meant curse which is where the euphemisim comes into play and it explains why job said according to the complete jewish bible (you speak as a low class woman). Wow this is good! I wish we could keep stuff like this up it really makes you study the word.
God bless u all
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RE: please help me on Job 2:9 - 5/23/2008 9:04:48 AM
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tucole
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thank u
cute kids....
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RE: please help me on Job 2:9 - 5/24/2008 7:27:03 AM
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BibleL7
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It seems perhaps even more complicated when in the book of Job the same word is used several times as curse and several times as bless. For it is also the same word in Hebrew used when Job offered sacrifices for his sons in case they may have cursed God in their parties and is also the same word Satan used in accusing Job that he would surely curse You to Your face when talking with God both times.
Looking at the translating of the word barak elsewhere in the Bible it is also translated as blaspheme, or renounce and other English translations also use renounce or blaspheme in Job 2:9 as well as a few that translate it bless.
So it seems that many scholars disagree on the translation yet the majority of the English versions do translate it curse, renounce or blaspheme in these verses and only 3 of the 26 I have on e-Sword translate it bless so it seems it is one more of the many words in Hebrew that are hard to define except within the context. There are several words in Hebrew that have opposing meanings and yet spelled the same. This is one of the many problems of translating word for word into another language. Many times a word has multiple meanings and can be taken different ways depending on how it is used. We have many words in English language that have different meanings to different people of different generations which can only truly be understood in context and according to tone when using them yet in translating to another language it does not make sense at all. One example would be fat depending on who is saying it or the context if it is translated into another language it could be changed from compliment to insult depending on the word used by the person translating.
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RE: please help me on Job 2:9 - 6/17/2008 11:25:57 PM
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Godhead
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What a great man Job was and truly wise.
Adam harkened unto his wife and was banished from paradise, thus condemning us all
Abraham harkened unto Sarah and had a son by her handmaid, and so we have the troubles with Ishmael’s descendants. Job did not Harken unto his wife but said, “You speak as a foolish woman speaks.” What a man of God! If only Adam had said that to Eve, or Abraham said that to Sarah. What a better world it would be.
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A Seventh day Adventist came up to me and said, “Do you know that there is no hell?”
I then immediately replied, “Well you have nothing to worry about then.”
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